SilverMiner
You're trying to say you like DOS better than me, right?
Posts: 1,261
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Post by SilverMiner on Aug 12, 2024 11:53:43 GMT -5
just don't implement it, period
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40oz
diRTbAg
Posts: 5,942
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Post by 40oz on Aug 12, 2024 12:09:21 GMT -5
I do see the value of the mod upload system. TBH I don't really have any qualms with people uploading DBPs to this system. DBPs have a pretty strict release schedule, so I've just gotten used to things not being fully perfect by the time people start playing it.
I was on a video call with my partner and she showed me her daughter playing auger zenith on the playstation 5, which was really exciting to see. It all looked pretty good. As long as people are backing up DBPs on other mirrors and locally on our hard drives, Bethesda can't really take DBP away. Even if for whatever reason bethesda decides to pull all DBPs from their system, some people still got to play it on their consoles, and DBPs will still be available in all the other ways it always was. Ultimately, I think that's pretty cool, even if this may be a form of consolation for the new mapping format they tacked on to this.
DBP appears to be live and functional on the new thing, so I'm on board with that. However, if there's any suggestion that DBP should transition to id24 because that's the 'real' doom, I will smother out any hope of that happening real quick. DBP is still standard Doom 2 with the (previously) hardcoded vanilla limits ignored, and we will just continue mapping as if this new thing doesn't exist. I don't care if Doomer Boards has to forfeit a relationship with Bethesda/Zenimax as a marketing partner.
I hope kraflab's last sentence isn't true. If he gets bullied out of the community over this, that's gonna be a massive blow to the speedrunning community. Everyone needs to stand by him right now because we can't let Bethesda win this. People are absolutely right to get angry and combative. This isn't cool.
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Post by trustanus on Aug 12, 2024 14:33:18 GMT -5
This whole thing is retarded, and the port is for faggots. Play on DOS or cut off your small lady balls.
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Post by Moonsweeper on Aug 12, 2024 21:18:50 GMT -5
If you look at the personal profile of DW administrators and Nightdive employees most of them are either communists or leftist leaning (pronouns in biography and stuff), not even a single one explicitly has the opposite opinions. Even if you look at Bethesda and Microsoft, the way they went against the author's vision and rewrote Fallout to say the USSR and China weren't the bad guys who started the war shows what they think. They say they don't like capitalism, but they in fact love it, they just don't admit it.
I have no inherent problem with selling mods, there is one commercial WAD that I like, it's REKKR, there are 4 free episodes and one that is only on digital stores, by no means you need to buy it, the 4 free episodes already are good enough, but you can support the author if you want, and get a bit of extra content for it.
And in reality, Legacy of Rust is an MBF21 wad, they only plan to make it ID24 one day, so there are no real ID24 wads you can play right now, it makes me question why this standard even exists now. I think this is a huge oportunity for the Freedoom project to restructure and turn into the main way people will play Doom on.
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Post by dr_st on Aug 13, 2024 5:27:07 GMT -5
I want perhaps to share a couple of thoughts on ID24. Would be much happier if the political and historical discussions weren't part of this thread...
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40oz
diRTbAg
Posts: 5,942
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Post by 40oz on Aug 13, 2024 5:59:47 GMT -5
split. go for it dr_st
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StodgyAyatollah
Doomer
I'm not here. You're just imagining things.
Posts: 491
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Post by StodgyAyatollah on Aug 13, 2024 10:02:53 GMT -5
So, as I'm understanding things now GooberMan was already working on rnr24 when the corpo overlords were approached and asked if it could be implemented in the new port as id24 for... reasons. They got the greenlight then essentially went on to create an mbf21 mapset instead of utilizing the new features. I mean, there are animated skies and intermission maps like in doom 1 but pretty negligible stuff. Why was rnr24 shoehorned into this port instead of following the same line as previous formats when it added nothing to the port? It's not like they couldn't have implemented support without tying them together like they have. Why was it explicitly stated that the resource wad would be required when it wouldn't be? Seems almost like testing the waters if you ask me. What were the pretenses to which the corpos agreed to it's inclusion, that we will likely never hear? It's all just way to sketchy for me to claim I'm not smelling smoke. I don't see it gaining steam though. The effects mbf21 have had are even negligible so I expect the majority of maps will be of a similar composition to what they have been for some time now.
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40oz
diRTbAg
Posts: 5,942
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Post by 40oz on Aug 13, 2024 10:11:29 GMT -5
StodgyAyatollah Well said. These are my thoughts exactly. I'm already predicting another re-release in a few years where there will be some kinda doom mods marketplace that bethesda exhibits control over (imagine some kinda fancy online shopping mall where you pay $0.99 for cool id24 megawads) while hiring more doomworld people to pad it out with content, so by the time they do it, any kinda resistance will be smothered by the usual doomworld mouthpieces saying "What? We were already agreeing to this in 2024... noooow you have a problem with it? You don't want to support community mod developers?? You just want everything for freeeeee?"
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StodgyAyatollah
Doomer
I'm not here. You're just imagining things.
Posts: 491
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Post by StodgyAyatollah on Aug 13, 2024 10:49:46 GMT -5
40oz It's so incredibly obvious that at least one entity in the corporate chain of id, bethesda, zenimax and microsoft is going to want to capitalize off a sizable fan community that has been churning out content for one of the IPs they hold. The fact that some people are acting like that simply cannot happen only gives me the impression that they are being disingenuous.
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Post by JadingTsunami on Aug 13, 2024 10:50:02 GMT -5
So, as I'm understanding things now GooberMan was already working on rnr24 when the corpo overlords were approached and asked if it could be implemented in the new port as id24 for... reasons. This is actually correct (sorry typo'd at first); Xaser/Gooberman proposed id24 and got buy-off to move ahead with it. I'm not ascribing any specific motive there. In reality it's probably a mix of things like with anything. Gooberman clearly feels insulted; you can read his post here to see how he reacts to this news. So he probably believes he did what was best. You can read what Xaser thinks here, but the key point: I personally don't find motivation to be the sticking point here. I summarized my thoughts here so I won't bother to duplicate it. In fact I don't really see any need for id24 to exist at all, give LoR doesn't even use it.
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40oz
diRTbAg
Posts: 5,942
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Post by 40oz on Aug 13, 2024 13:07:53 GMT -5
I really don't have a lot of compassion for people that say "we did this because we could have done something worse" when doing nothing at all was always available.
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Post by trustanus on Aug 13, 2024 13:10:18 GMT -5
I love how the arguing is going over at DW. At least some of the prominent people aren’t bending a knee and blindly sucking Microcock.
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Post by killerratte on Aug 13, 2024 13:30:56 GMT -5
It's just not fun anymore, and I think I'm really done this time. Can I have your stuff?
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Post by trustanus on Aug 13, 2024 13:41:02 GMT -5
monetize their doom hobby. Don't mean to insult you, but you just discovered cold water. Of course a large part of the Doom community is in the hobby in hopes of being drafted NFL style by Nightdive or Mekworks (professional) or the BTSX team / Squonkers (the equivalent of the junior league big honchos hunt heads in) - it's the new standard of hobbies in general, you don't do it for the fun; you do it in hopes that someday it'll become your day job. Obviously, chances grow exponentially the more: - You keep at the same time a high, yet milquetoast profile; - choke the scene with works, in hope that something eventually will stick; - gain brownie points by piling up on easy targets; I know what I'm talking about because, for a very short while, it's a game I tried to play too. It's how the Doom community works, it's how every hobby community works, it's how 2024 works. The whole 'politics' angle doesn't stand up to scrutiny because DB's DBP people and the DB politik people are almost entirely different entities. Don’t forget when all else fails come out as trans.
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40oz
diRTbAg
Posts: 5,942
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Post by 40oz on Aug 13, 2024 13:46:55 GMT -5
I love how the arguing is going over at DW. At least some of the prominent people aren’t bending a knee and blindly sucking Microcock. Me too. The good guys / bad guys dichotomy doomworld has spent the last 8 years establishing is shattering right now. It's about fucking time. It's really nice to see unquestioned leaders of doomworld have to defend their ideas for once.
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Post by ketmar on Aug 13, 2024 15:49:39 GMT -5
and for now, i recommend to create all future wads using exclusive features of Edge Classic, GZDoom, k8vavoom, Eternity — something that bethesda "re-release" doesn't have. just to prevent bethesda taking your work and monetize it. because they sure want to make a stunt like "hey, look, we have so much Doom content in our store! buy our crap, and you'll get it all!" ok, we cannot prevent them from taking the old content, but at least we can stop them from having all fresh and shiny releases.
it's time for DBP to go DECORATE-heavy, lol. ;-)
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Post by dr_st on Aug 13, 2024 16:14:34 GMT -5
I've been trying to wrap my head around all this.
Keeping the discussion of the newly released content for that other thread - what is the main problem folks are having with the new spec?
Is it the fact that it's pushed by the big corporate IP owner, which gives it a flair of "officiality" and everyone will feel pressured to adhere to?
Or the fact that one must purchase a copy of the new release (the commercial ID24RES.WAD) to use it?
I don't think the former is really an issue, because of how big and mature the community is. GZDOOM did not kill BOOM/Vanilla, and this won't either. Especially with 30 years of content.
The latter is annoying, but is it much different from, say, having to have a copy of DOOM2 (and not just DOOM) to play levels that use DOOM2 things/assets?
As it is, since everyone who previously owned any version DOOM on any of the supported platforms has just got this upgrade for free, I think the only people left in limbo are those with retail copies from years past.
I wonder if perhaps a couple of years down the road, when Bethesda has milked this release for whatever new clients it hopes to have attracted by it, a pitch by the community to make ID24RES free-to-distribute would work.
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Post by JadingTsunami on Aug 13, 2024 16:36:22 GMT -5
Keeping the discussion of the newly released content for that other thread - what is the main problem folks are having with the new spec? The basic argument is: This new spec has no reason to exist. It introduces almost nothing new and what it does introduce is already implemented elsewhere. All it seems to do is force all ports to adhere to a new, arbitrary set of limitations and re-implement a bunch of stuff that already works. Sure, there are ostensible reasons, but most of them fall apart on scrutiny and boil down to "it makes things easier for someone who isn't you," which is a line of reasoning not many on the losing end of that bargain found appealing so far.
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Post by dasho on Aug 13, 2024 16:45:34 GMT -5
I've been trying to wrap my head around all this. Keeping the discussion of the newly released content for that other thread - what is the main problem folks are having with the new spec? Per the published 0.9.1 spec, imposing weird technical debts on source port devs: - OGG Vorbis support, which requires integrating either libogg+libvorbis (heavy) or stb_vorbis (not stable) - "Tracker music" support, for which the exact formats expected are not defined. This also requires integrating external libraries, the lightest of which is libxmp-lite or (to shill myself) Mod4Play but those only work if IT/S3M/XM/MOD support fulfills the standard. - Requiring flats and textures to be used interchangeably. This is not a trivial task if a port doesn't already have the capability. - Floor and ceiling offset+rotation; again not trivial if the port doesn't already support this. Also tacking on more bullshit to the corpse that is Dehacked and reserving line special and thing ID ranges "for exclusive use by id Software and its affiliates."
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Post by dr_st on Aug 13, 2024 16:58:20 GMT -5
If the spec is useless as you say - why would anyone feel 'forced' to implement it? Just to play LoR? Wait, you said that LoR doesn't use it? (I think it uses the new things at least)
Right now there is not any community content that uses ID24, and if it's really a superset of MBF21, then as long as modders stick to MBF21, their works will be compatible with existing ports as well as with this new port (and the console versions, which is what I assume was Bethesda's big goal here).
I suppose, in the end port devs can decide to implement whatever portions of the spec they see most useful (if any). It's not like there's IEEE certification to pass.
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Post by ketmar on Aug 13, 2024 17:04:21 GMT -5
it is also quite fun how people keep mentioning DECOhack in that other thread. because using the external tool to compile what is essentialy a DECOLITE to DEHACKED mess instead of… you know, directly loading DECOLITE files, is The Solition To All DEHACKED Problems. yay.
i am very close to axing DEHACKED support from k8v completely. not that it is very reliable right now anyway, and there is absolutely zero reasons trying to keep it alive. it is so fragile that i literally cannot change any playsim/state machine things without breaking DEHACKED support in some way. and it forces me to do such horrible things with the engine that i don't even dare to describe. supporting several old maps simply doesn't worth it anymore.
but i should say "thank you" to bethesda and id. they finally managed to convince me that port interoperability worth nothing, and i could stop inflicting a headaches to myself trying to keep things compatible. so from now on i can take k8v DECORATE the way i want it to go, without looking back (or in any other direction which is not my own). i.e. keep what i have working (maybe), and redesign the whole thing from the scratch. because i can, and fuck everybody else — this is Teh Official Blessed Way of Doing Things now.
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Post by JadingTsunami on Aug 13, 2024 17:32:33 GMT -5
If the spec is useless as you say - why would anyone feel 'forced' to implement it? Just to play LoR? Wait, you said that LoR doesn't use it? (I think it uses the new things at least) At present there's no reason to implement it except to maximize compatibility with the official port and future-proof support for any related mods that might come out. LoR is an MBF21 WAD except for a few tiny visual exceptions (nothing related to functionality as far as I saw). But even if you don't support it, it will presumably restrict what you can and can't do, since other ports may/will support it, and further opens you up to a lot of compatibility headaches. Users will get confused/frustrated/angry when things don't work like they expect and complain to you directly as the port author. Sure, you can argue "ignore them" but that's not so simple when you are trying to provide something nice for people and they aren't happy with it. So there are fears it will fracture the landscape a lot. They aren't unjustified in my view, and we do need to "wait and see" how things progress to know one way or the other on it. I also suspect some of the irritations arise from the fact that this is an "official" spec and it will get more adoption than it rightly deserves for that reason alone. The origins of the spec are largely stuff that a single developer was working on in their own, relatively obscure, port and now have been stamped official and sent to all the port owners to work on. All other specs were, for the most part, community efforts with feedback cycles, buy-off from port owners on the major stuff, and so on. Sure, they clarified the spec is an "RC", but "RC" to developers is closer to "I would release this as it's 100% finished but I want you to sign off on it" and not "here's an idea, let's bat it around." No one expects major changes to the spec before the "final" revision of 1.0. And given how the reaction to port author's concerns have looked in the thread, the attitude feels far more "this is the situation, now deal with it," and not "let's have a conversation." I may read too much into it and I'm open to be corrected.
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40oz
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Posts: 5,942
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Post by 40oz on Aug 13, 2024 17:37:25 GMT -5
now that id24 is theirs, it never really stops being theirs. Its probably not wise to take exactly what this is as face value. Instead, look at it for what opportunities this opens up to a powerful beast with bottomless pockets.
ex. Suppose the answer to the seemingly problematic community mod upload system that just launched is a restructuring of it in which it is curated by hiring paid contractors from doomworld to pad out their mod content with id24 exclusives that community-made source ports choose not to support.
This would create exclusive doom wads that only simps that support bethesda would be entitled to. The divide between the content we can share and enjoy would smother the rest of the community out of their own game. Since id24 is apeing mbf21, mappers who already map in this format may be convinved to switch to id24 just to double their potential audience. As much as people say 'you dont have to adopt this,' its extremely short sighted to not recognize the kind of stranglehold a massive company can put on us by hiring paid talent and swaying public opinion with excessive marketing.
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Post by JadingTsunami on Aug 13, 2024 17:49:20 GMT -5
I realize I wrote many things, so some could be skeptical. Rather than listen to me, read the tone of the message for the announcement of the spec here and draw your own conclusions. From the ending portion, emphasis mine: And here is an excerpt from the "Guiding Principles" of the specification itself, again emphasis mine: Maybe you feel the fears are overblown, and that's fine; it's a valid possibility. But you should at least understand how people are reaching different conclusions on the matter given what's been presented to them.
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Post by Bob Page on Aug 13, 2024 17:55:24 GMT -5
The ID24 spec was a pitch _from_ long-time community members _to_ Bethesda. We could've hardcoded the new features into the port, or kept it all closed-source, but instead chose to do it in a way that gives maximum flexibility to modders _and_ hands over the keys to the kingdom to the community when we're all done. If this was profit-motivated, it sure would be a strange way to show it. Listen to this asshole. A "pitch from long-time community members". Wow. Gotta love the nerve of these people. That right there is much of the Doomworld upper echelon's attitude for you. In their minds, they are the people who can and should decide how the community evolves and what happens to Doom modding moving forward. They certainly don't have to consult with anyone else about it. No, just have the few elites with the most clout at Doomworld make clandestine deals with Bethesda, and fuck what the rest of the plebians have to say about it. Not like I've been playing Doom since I was 15 years old, way back in 1994. And others have been playing it longer than I have (i.e. since December of 1993). And don't worry about all the other people who have contributed to the Doom community in a myriad of ways over the last 30 years who may not be in agreement with this little charade. We simply aren't part of the in-crowd, the cool club, the chosen few. We are obviously too stupid and shortsighted to understand appreciate what a good thing this deal is, right fellas? So it was not the case of a greedy company looking for a way to somehow monetize a 30-year-old community making content just for the love of creating and sharing stuff they are enthusiastic about, but a group of people _from_ that community contacting the company saying something in the lines of "hey, we have an idea on how you can try to add a paywall to this game we've been playing pretty much for free for all these years, some people will accept it, some people will not, but you surely will make some money out of this, all we want is a small piece of the cake". Thanks for clarifying that, I guess. I hope those paychecks are worth it. Nailed it. It's only a paywall if you didn't have the game on Steam, GOG, EGS, or MSS before. If you only had the game from your original Doom registered mailed-in floppies from January 1994 and have kept them readable for three decades, then congratulations I guess, that's pretty good data conservation! I hate this smug prick, and would like to watch him bleed out. I have the original Doom discs, all of them. Doom 1, Doom II, Final Doom, etc. They all still work fine. He's acting like it's impossible to preserve the data from a 90's CD-ROM. Like none of us know how USB thumb drives work. Like none of us have ever used a file hosting service like Mediafire to preserve data from physical media like floppy disks and CDs. Fuck you Gez, you simping piece of dogshit.
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