Lobo
Doomer
Posts: 591
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Post by Lobo on Aug 11, 2024 14:53:22 GMT -5
Imagine if no ports implement it. And no map editors either.
Hmmmm....Murdered by the community.
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Post by JadingTsunami on Aug 11, 2024 15:25:26 GMT -5
More on topic, JadingTsunami since you seem to have it figured, can you explain what this new format in practice means to me, potentially daft meat-and-potatoes mapper? Will I one day open UDB and suddenly there will be a "id24(Doom 2)" option when choosing a map format? You've got it right. In the simplest sense, from a mapper's perspective, it won't be any different than MBF21: if you don't choose "ID24" as your mapping format, you can just continue as-is. From a player's perspective, the huge open question is how popular the new format will be, and how much (if any) it will change the landscape of Doom modding in general.
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Gokuma
You're trying to say you like DOS better than me, right?
ch-ch-ch-ch
Posts: 1,122
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Post by Gokuma on Aug 11, 2024 15:40:43 GMT -5
This thread opened my eyes. thelokk and 40oz I think if you keep making these amazing maps and people enjoy them, that's the most important thing. The quality of these projects is really fantastic and your maps are always standouts. I thank you guys for your work and this place. Quoted for truth
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Post by ketmar on Aug 11, 2024 18:35:18 GMT -5
Imagine if no ports implement it. alas, no wai. gzdoom will implement it. and let's be honest: this is enough to claim "it is supported by major sourceports", lol.
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Post by JadingTsunami on Aug 11, 2024 18:38:47 GMT -5
Imagine if no ports implement it. alas, no wai. gzdoom will implement it. and let's be honest: this is enough to claim "it is supported by major sourceports", lol. Yeah, I think most of the major source ports will rush to implement the new standard (gzdoom and dsda certainly). And I expect someone will also rush to make the first "ID24 mod" and upload it soon. It's almost like we need to call this new version NightDoom (NightDive Doom) or something to distinguish it from "pure Doom" or "vanilla Doom". It will get confusing quickly otherwise.
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Post by ketmar on Aug 11, 2024 18:55:08 GMT -5
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40oz
diRTbAg
Posts: 5,942
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Post by 40oz on Aug 11, 2024 19:16:44 GMT -5
wait didnt that thread have like a hundred more posts in it?
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Post by JadingTsunami on Aug 11, 2024 19:23:01 GMT -5
wait didnt that thread have like a hundred more posts in it? There was a split; a lot of posts were sent here and the thread was locked.
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Post by ketmar on Aug 11, 2024 19:50:19 GMT -5
of course it is locked. because you are not allowed to express ANY concerns regarding id24. nightdive are Teh Gods of the Universe, their decisions should not be discussed. just swallow it all and be happy.
…and i was a big fan of nightdive some time ago… i should have known better.
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Post by Bob Page on Aug 11, 2024 23:17:02 GMT -5
of course it is locked. because you are not allowed to express ANY concerns regarding id24. nightdive are Teh Gods of the Universe, their decisions should not be discussed. just swallow it all and be happy. Exactly. I read through the entire thread that got locked, and there are a lot of people voicing valid concerns about how this will impact Doom modding going forward. And the response that they get from a few coice assholes is nothing but prickish, nasty, condescending, and rude. Esselfortium and others are shilling so hard for Bethesda, yet they aren't on the payroll. Imagine being like that. What a sad existence that must be.
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Post by Bob Page on Aug 12, 2024 0:20:10 GMT -5
Absolutely love the fact that the majority are enjoying this and a very vocal minority has concerns. Concerns that directly implicate casting doubt on folks that are part of this community for 20 years or more. As much as it is good to have a healthy suspiscion, the amount of hmming is frankly insultive. Why are you lot casting doubt on people that are literally part of the community? Especially when the spec (and thus, the wording!) isn't even final! Isn't the fact that Goober and Xaser released this out of the door unfinished a statement to their intent? Namely that they aren't here to bullshit a community that knows better about this? They are the last folks to harp on with licensing and phrasing terms. I am sorry but for the first time i am geniunely disappointed in some of you. These are literally our people, and yet we have folks in here casting major doubt on their intent. Some by new accounts, but i also see some seasoned and respected members here. Hey redneckerz , FUCK YOU and the horse you rode in on. I'm not sure why you have Bethesda and NightDive's collective dicks in your mouth, especially since you aren't benefitting financially from this shitshow. It's way more than a "vocal minority" that has concerns, despite how you are attempting to paint things. Tons of people already think this is bullshit, and when it makes the rounds and comes to everyone's attention, it's only gonna get worse. People have every right to be mistrustful and cast doubt. Shit likes this happens all the time in the video game industry and elsewhere, including WITH BETHESDA THEMSELVES, YOU FUCKING DUNCE! So what if it involves some people from the Doom community? Does that somehow make them immune to being pieces of shit and helping to usher in an objectively shitty new change to the Doom modding space? I could give a flying fuck about how long Xaser and Gooberman have been in the community. That doesn't mean shit to me. I don't automatically assume positive intent because these people have had an account on a Doom forum and fucked around in a wad editor for 20 years. I don't trust those cocksuckers at all. You posted your response about "community" on a Doomworld thread, bud. Doomworld is a site run by people who censor opposing viewpoints more stringently than Communist China and North Korea. Yet you act like any person who dares think that "community members" might be doing something nefarious is somehow way off base? Most of the Doomworld moderation team have been shown, time and time again, to be the most absolutely toxic, nasty, and immature people on the internet. Frankly, I think tenured and "seasoned" community members should be vetted much more thoroughly, if for no other reason than they've been stewing in the rancid Doomworld echo chambers and sniffing each others' farts for way too long. No one gives a fuck if you are disappointed, motherfucker. I hope you cry your dumb ass to sleep about it. This is, very obviously, a fucking stupid decision and a real dickhead move by Bethesda and id Software, with NightDive in tow. I'm going to be absolutely fucking thrilled when no one maps for this horseshit id24 mapping standard. And then morons like you are going to slink away and not make reference to it again, pretending you never cheerled it like a giddy fucking school-girl. But we'll remember your actions, enshrined forever as a shameful testament to your missing testicles. No, that's exactly the gist about it. ID24 is new and exciting and when people are excited, they start wondering about the possibilities. (''Oh yes, now i can use these features and those monsters! Hell yeah, my map will rock!'') Literally none of those "possibilities" are new and exciting. All of this shit has been around for years. Using flats as wall textures and wall textures as flats has been in ZDoom for way more than a decade. New monsters can be obtained by visiting Realm667 and downloading the resources. What exactly are these new "possibilities" that you speak of?
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SilverMiner
You're trying to say you like DOS better than me, right?
Posts: 1,261
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Post by SilverMiner on Aug 12, 2024 0:40:46 GMT -5
of course it is locked. because you are not allowed to express ANY concerns regarding id24. nightdive are Teh Gods of the Universe, their decisions should not be discussed. just swallow it all and be happy. …and i was a big fan of nightdive some time ago… i should have known better. The sigil veteran edition was cool, but nightquake with nightmare meaning 50 hp cap is not
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SilverMiner
You're trying to say you like DOS better than me, right?
Posts: 1,261
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Post by SilverMiner on Aug 12, 2024 0:50:18 GMT -5
Imagine if no ports implement it. And no map editors either. Hmmmm....Murdered by the community. While adding support for 5th episode in case of sigil was quick and simple, adding id24 would require some time and would result in bloated exes and higher ram appetites. I think the id24 spec is enough of a long time repellent to even start implementing it
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Post by Moonsweeper on Aug 12, 2024 0:52:23 GMT -5
The thread has already been unlocked by now, only the split is still locked. To be fair, those features are kind of cool, but I don't think ID24 should be the new standard, maybe an MBF24 copying almost all of it's features would a good and ironic answer to it. But I have to say, Doomworld feels like a forum owned by Bethesda now, it's already the center of the community with idgames, DoomWiki and the Cacowards being directly connected to it, but now it's being used as a Q&A place by Nightdive employees. It's ironic, Atari bought a fan forum called Atariage this year, but over there you still are completely free to criticize Atari's decision as much as you like, it's like the acquisition didn't even happen.
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Post by ketmar on Aug 12, 2024 1:31:47 GMT -5
it's quite easy: they want people to buy that "new re-release". this is literally the only reason to tie id24 (which is not as exciting as they're saying anyway) to that "new iwad". they could simply include new enemies and weapons in LoR wad directly, and get much less backlash. or make resource iwad freely redistributable. for fuck's sake, "free to redistribute" doesn't mean "it's not copyrighted", 'cmon!
of course, people are concerned — because there is simply no any sane reason to NOT make that new iwad free (not LoR itself, the resource iwad). this decision literally smells "let's try it and check if they will accept it." there WILL be more of that shit, inevitably. it always starts small and seemingly innocent.
and of course, they could simply implement the required subset of DECORATE instead (writing proper specs on their way if they wish to), allowing LoR to be played with all sourceports with DECORATE support (not only GZ and k8v, but, for example, with Zandronum). but they choose to create Yet Another Proprietary Standard instead. now tell me that they didn't done it to force more people to buy their "re-release", because LoR cannot be played with anything else for now. "antipiracy measures", lol. like people don't have to get "re-release" to get LoR at the first place. or like it's so hard to download GOG release from some torrent site (i found several of them; not that i need it at all, but it was like 5 minutes of searching).
and i am absolutely refuse to buy "this is id official new iwad" bullshit. id software of today is not THAT id software. it is a doppelganger, riding on the fame of what once been. nudoom is bullshit. new lore is bullshit. and LoR is just a mod from a company which stole the famous name. and in the good tradition of modern id software, they're trying to shove their proprietary crap as "community standard" using some community members as a battering ram.
hey, where is the source code of idTech5? Carmack promised FOSS release, so where it is? ah, i see, Carmack is not in id software anymore, so fuck all promises. but keep insisting that it is still the same id software, yeah. what happened to "…eventually id Tech 5 is going to be open source also. This is still the law of the land at id…"? ah, this is not the law anymore, i guess. just shut the fuck up, and don't ask stupid questions.
fuck you, "id software".
sorry. i am really upset by all that shit.
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StodgyAyatollah
Doomer
I'm not here. You're just imagining things.
Posts: 491
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Post by StodgyAyatollah on Aug 12, 2024 6:26:20 GMT -5
So id24 adds some minor superfluous stuff to mbf21, requires a commercial pwad that has nothing of value inside, is being taken serious as a viable format and the dw collective is trying to legitimize it? Time to pack up the bags boys. The doom community is officially dead and corporate asslicking has killed it.
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Post by ketmar on Aug 12, 2024 7:44:38 GMT -5
meh. there is nothing wrong with Doom community, it is as strong and sane as ever. but doomworld community distanced themselfs quite a long time ago. so let them kiss any asses they wish.
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StodgyAyatollah
Doomer
I'm not here. You're just imagining things.
Posts: 491
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Post by StodgyAyatollah on Aug 12, 2024 8:37:20 GMT -5
My last comment was sort of sarcasm but not entirely. Only issue I really have is that a new format was made under employ of some pretty scummy corpos and that there is already a clamoring to merge business and modding on dw. I think the writing is on the wall for where they are steering their ship. It could actually be a good thing though. If there's a significant exodus of the disenfranchised out to the other corners of the doomsphere before apathy takes complete hold in them then I see that as a net gain for doom overall. However if a major player and central hub of the game like dw drags a significant portion of players and mappers down into that corpo apathy it will have a net negative impact on doom overall.
Nightdive should have just made a doom 2 format set of maps imo. Although I do think it is good they added support for other formats for all the console kids to play stuff they wouldn't otherwise.
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Post by JadingTsunami on Aug 12, 2024 9:10:04 GMT -5
A really eloquent post by (presumably?) kraflab here which I think accurately summarizes how many people feel right now. I sort of expected dsda would be part of the conversation for any new standard but it seems not. I guess it was a surprise there also.
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Post by thundercunt on Aug 12, 2024 9:40:11 GMT -5
I don't think many modders will use this for the same reason no one uses Eternity engine. If you need a lot of advanced features, then use GZDoom; if you don't, then use vanilla/limit removing/boom for maximum source-port compatibility. There is no way this new standard will find widespread popularity among the community
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40oz
diRTbAg
Posts: 5,942
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Post by 40oz on Aug 12, 2024 9:45:36 GMT -5
The new monsters, weapons, and props in Legacy of Rust are all just as hokey as any weird dehacked stuff we've ever done for DBP. You guys have heard plenty from me that I'm pretty strongly against new dehacked enemies and weapons in DBP despite almost every other project leader not listening to me about it. I just like the standard doom beastiary better in every case. (I really only like dehacked for non-gameplay enhancements, like ambient noise) If I'm being honest, if we only had Doom 1 for 30 years and they tried to spring all the new doom 2 monsters on us I'd probably be pretty pissed about all of them except maybe the hell knight. I do like the Doom 2 monsters now except I still think archviles and pain elementals are entirely too janky* and should be used sparingly. It's just dumb that they think it's so important to do this that it should be a new standard for all mapping going forward. These new mapping features and monsters and weapons don't really make Legacy of Rust better either. I'm up to E1M4 and every map so far has problems. There hasn't been a single map so far that doesn't have unavoidable health or ammo items directly in front of a mandatory switch. I groaned at E1M3 at having 400+ monsters and no backpack and not a single secret. It takes 25 minutes to beat and every room is exactly the same color. Very fortunate that I didn't get lost because if I had to backtrack trough any of this I would have gotten a headache. Sheesh. Doom 2 monster tangent(*) Everyone I've ever seen play Doom and encounter an archvile for the first time has no idea what's going on. "Why am I on fire? I can't see anything! Now I'm dead?"
The fire seems to suggest you're caught on fire, but the fire itself does not deal any physical harm, which is visually misleading. The fire is just a target only, which is not easy to explain to someone in person if you're watching them play and die to it over and over again. It is also not at all clear that you need to get out of the archvile's sight to make the fire go away. Archviles are also just stupidly fast and absorb a ton of damage. I suppose the speed has something to do with getting them to reach and resurrect monsters, and the high hp is supposed to suggest he has the power to heal himself...? idk. There's a lot of drawbacks to this though.
Additionally, there's a bunch of other archvile jank like the offsets of the fire animation sputtering up and down out of control, archvile jumping into out of bounds areas, and the way an archvile can be targetting another monster first, and then you hurt the archvile, (e.g. with a rocket's splash damage, or a stray bullet from a super shotgun or chaingun fire) the archvile will change target to you with no fire, no visual indicator, that you're in danger. Then you just get blammed with a massive amount of damage for seemingly no reason. I don't know why players put up with this monster if we weren't stuck with it and it didn't look so cool.
Pain Elementals have very obvious flaws. Maximum 20 lost soul cap also includes lost souls placed on the map, which breaks them in MAP09 The Pit and MAP10 Refueling Base on UV, which are potentially the first pain elementals The player will ever encounter. (Technically, the first one is in MAP08, but its in a room that requires you to shoot a wall to go in, so that's very missable) Lost souls generated from pain elementals really should have been given a second thing ID to cap, and that thing ID probably should have had half health too. It's also stupid that lost souls that are spit out are not in their attack state on spawn, but still fly directly into you and still hurt you. This also makes lost souls have the "attack right back" flag which makes them really resistant to being stopped mid-attack when they spawn in a moving/chasing animation that can hurt you. This needed more testing.
Revenants probably should have had homing missiles 100% of the time. honestly. The 50/50 chance is really confusing and annoying, especially when the smoke cloud trails are not very visible. I saw in preliminary closed beta videos of Doom 2 that revenants were originally going to fire at a 45 degree angle. By doing this, you could see the missile curve towards the player as it is approaching. You can get a similar glimpse of what this looks like if you fight revenants while carrying an invisibility sphere. Idk why that got nixed, that was a good idea that looked cool and made sense. It should have stayed. Maybe revenants in narrow hallways were shooting at walls or infighting too much, but I think that just makes them more funny.
Controversial, but if I had it my way, I'd probably make chaingunners' first two bullets fire blanks. They are very devastating for lower tier monsters and there's almost no warning that you'll start getting destroyed, since they sound exactly as harmless as pistol guys.
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40oz
diRTbAg
Posts: 5,942
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Post by 40oz on Aug 12, 2024 9:48:06 GMT -5
A really eloquent post by (presumably?) kraflab here which I think accurately summarizes how many people feel right now. I sort of expected dsda would be part of the conversation for any new standard but it seems not. I guess it was a surprise there also. Fuck yeah, slam dunk post by kraflab. That dude rules.
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Post by JadingTsunami on Aug 12, 2024 10:01:09 GMT -5
I don't think many modders will use this for the same reason no one uses Eternity engine. If you need a lot of advanced features, then use GZDoom; if you don't, then use vanilla/limit removing/boom for maximum source-port compatibility. There is no way this new standard will find widespread popularity among the community I would agree except it's endorsed by id and is the only way to use advanced modding features on consoles. I suspect this will have a significant impact, as the reach afforded by consoles is pretty huge.
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Post by ketmar on Aug 12, 2024 11:08:14 GMT -5
A really eloquent post by (presumably?) kraflab here which I think accurately summarizes how many people feel right now. and it is immediately followed by the ass-licking post which not simply missed all the points, but deliberately ignored them. the only thing that is worse than payed shills is unpayed shills. ;-)
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Post by JadingTsunami on Aug 12, 2024 11:45:07 GMT -5
A really eloquent post by (presumably?) kraflab here which I think accurately summarizes how many people feel right now. and it is immediately followed by the ass-licking post which not simply missed all the points, but deliberately ignored them. the only thing that is worse than payed shills is unpayed shills. ;-) I see the positive view of things too: this port injects new life in the game itself, many more eyeballs on the mods with console exposures, new modding capabilities which look powerful and cool. If you adopt a rosy outlook you can see it. But there's a darker side too, which is that so far: we have Doom under a proprietary license again, community mods are being uploaded en masse to a company portal and being used, regardless if it's directly or indirectly, to promote this proprietary, closed, for-profit enterprise without much guardrails to ensure the authors' wishes are honored, and there's a new mapping spec we're all supposed to adopt that isn't under our control (presumably only the company can release new spec revisions). I know all the responses, they are not so convincing to me. We will have to wait and see what happens.
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