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Post by JadingTsunami on Aug 10, 2024 17:51:20 GMT -5
There's a lot happening, so I thought I would summarize for anyone not following who is interested. - At Quakecon, a new version of PC and Console Doom was announced, now simply being called "Doom + Doom II". - If you already bought Doom on a supported platform or console, you get the upgrade for free. - The new port includes a new official expansion to original Doom called Legacy of Rust. - The new port includes a "community area" for downloading and playing mods uploaded by users. - The engine in this new version supports a new mapping standard called ID24. - ID24 is an extension of MBF21 which is an extension of MBF which is an extension of Boom (whew!). - ID24 supports a lot of new stuff (so much it's hard to summarize it all). As far as ID24 goes, the DoomWiki is already updated with details, but some highlights (in addition to everything in MBF21/MBF/Boom/etc.): - Any flat can be used as a texture on any wall and vice versa - Any sector can be mapped to any colormap and changed dynamically - You can apply offsets and rotations to flats - You can change music within levels (without MUSINFO) - "Pistol start" can be enforced by the exit linedef - There are new weapons and monsters available for use - DeHackEd is extended with a new standard called "ID24HACKED", which adds new capabilities and removes most limits (however, there are several ranges reserved for id software's use only). One caveat is that any map adhering to the ID24 standard must load id24res.wad which is non-free (copyrighted). You can think of this similar to the IWADs which are required to play the existing games, except it's a PWAD/add-on. For those interested in all the details, the actual ID24 spec is here, plus the relevant Doomworld thread is here.
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Aug 10, 2024 23:38:20 GMT -5
Sheesh it wasn't imposing enough to rerelease doom. Bethesda has infiltrated and turned the community against itself with co-opting community members to define an 'official' mapping format that half the people are gonna honor and the other half won't, complicating everything for source port creators and mappers alike. As if the community isn't fatigued enough. This shit sucks.
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Post by JadingTsunami on Aug 10, 2024 23:52:18 GMT -5
Sheesh it wasn't imposing enough to rerelease doom. Bethesda has infiltrated and turned the community against itself with co-opting community members to define an 'official' mapping format that half the people are gonna honor and the other half won't, complicating everything for source port creators and mappers alike. As if the community isn't fatigued enough. This shit sucks. It's a lot to take in. In some ways, it's as if a stranger showed up and announced, "hey everyone, I added some monsters and weapons to Doom, and changed how a lot of stuff works. But don't worry, I left explanations of what I did and I left you some space for expansions. I also reserved a lot of space for myself to add more stuff later on and you can't use that space at all. Also all the new maps need to use my new standards and monsters and weapons; it's the future of Doom mapping from now on." The fact that all the console versions will support ID24 suggests it could become pretty popular pretty quickly since you can send your maps to consoles across the world with just an upload. But, the existing standards are of course still the same as they always were. As a fun side note, "limitremoving" got support some of the visual-only Boom specials. So I guess we could use those now (or not).
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Post by Bob Page on Aug 10, 2024 23:52:19 GMT -5
Sheesh it wasn't imposing enough to rerelease doom. Bethesda has infiltrated and turned the community against itself with co-opting community members to define an 'official' mapping format that half the people are gonna honor and the other half won't, complicating everything for source port creators and mappers alike. As if the community isn't fatigued enough. This shit sucks. Agreed. What a short-sighted, out-of-touch move on their part. There's no way they even attempted to think that through before doing it. My basic understanding is that in order to play content which is mapped in the ID24 standard, you have to own the copyrighted id24res.wad, so that it can be run when you run the user-created content. Presumably, this was done so that it would encourage people to purchase the Doom + Doom II package. But people who have already owned Doom for 30 years and still use the wad files from their original CDs or floppy disks, or perhaps versions of the wads from GOG or some such site, now cannot run the new content created in the ID24 standard unless they either buy the game again or break the law buy pirating the id24res.wad file. Why do this to a game which has had an insanely active modding community for 30 years? And not to mention what you said about source port creators. Good grief.
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Post by JadingTsunami on Aug 11, 2024 0:10:37 GMT -5
I think they were trying to do something cool and that the community would embrace. I don't know how it will all turn out. It does create a lot of uncertainty for many people, I think.
The fact that Doom is closed-source again is a bit of a sore spot for me, I must admit, though I understand why.
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Post by MegaPancakeStrategist on Aug 11, 2024 0:15:23 GMT -5
Grats to the devs for getting picked up, but as for everyone else yeah what a mess xd. I'll stick to only acknowledging limit-removing and GZDoom formats.
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Post by Bob Page on Aug 11, 2024 0:20:55 GMT -5
The fact that Doom is closed-source again is a bit of a sore spot for me, I must admit, though I understand why. Can you help me understand why? I don't see why this is a good thing. Doom's source code was purposefully released in 1997, and Carmack signed off on it.
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SilverMiner
You're trying to say you like DOS better than me, right?
Posts: 1,261
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Post by SilverMiner on Aug 11, 2024 1:20:11 GMT -5
The fact that Doom is closed-source again is a bit of a sore spot for me, I must admit, though I understand why. only bethesda's 2024 doom rerelease is closed source? The open source stuff can't be closed (unless it's bsd, mit or something)
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Post by ketmar on Aug 11, 2024 5:08:49 GMT -5
the whole thing about id24 is quite easy: they needed some new content for re-release to show that they "care", and they couldn't use any existing source code to implement already established modding standards. so they took Gooberman's clean-room implementation, asked him to add some more on top of it, and called it a day.
the problem with reimplementing something existing is not only time, but vague specs too. it is simply impossible to correctly implement DECORATE or MBF21 without looking at source code of some existing implementation. which is, of course, no-no for proprietary release.
it is a "lose-lose" situation: wrong implementation of, say, MBF21 will lead to community outrage, because "bethesda is trying to force their understanding of the standard on us!" implementing something new leads to almost the same outrage too. so if you'll get a backlash anyway, it is wiser to implement something you can at least fully control.
that's how i see this whole situation.
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somniac
Doomer
17 - light flickers (randomly)
Posts: 26
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Post by somniac on Aug 11, 2024 5:37:02 GMT -5
Its not like everybody ditched Boom/MBF the moment MBF21 appeared, people still make limit-removing and vanilla maps, its not like those are going away.
There is something else, though: as the new "upload/share your mods" feature is governed by bethesda's EULA (as it requires a bethesda.net account), the implication seems to be that you need to own the rights to every single bit of custom content you might put into a map. This obviously isn't being enforced yet because they're probably too busy cleaning up the mess of people uploading other people's wads first. So unless you can use Sekaiju (which is like pulling teeth, to be honest) and make all your own textures, if you want to share maps on the new port, legally speaking you're stuck to the standard Doom II textures and music + the new resource.
Am I correct here, and if so, how does that not fly in the face of 30 years of community modding? Why should anybody shackle themselves to that? Moreover, what potential ramifications exist for community content going forward, under this precedent?
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Post by thelokk on Aug 11, 2024 5:43:18 GMT -5
I don't know, at this point I'm just feeling very stupid for clearly missing some sort of point.
All these new standards, don't they simply add stuff UDMF can already do? To me it just feels like a constant feature creep to get to a point another format has already gotten to ages ago.
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Aug 11, 2024 6:44:17 GMT -5
Am I correct here, and if so, how does that not fly in the face of 30 years of community modding? Why should anybody shackle themselves to that? Moreover, what potential ramifications exist for community content going forward, under this precedent? I think wads like BTSX and anything that uses ukotex have preemptively accounted for that. It seemed like all those original textures were a lot of pointless legalese-dodging effort to me for a community system that seemed like it will always be by-the-players for-the-players. The upload system as i understand it seemingly utilizes doomworld's wishy-washy 'dont be an asshole' policy which is to say the doomworld users employed/contracted by bethesda will respond to reports based on how they 'feel' the uploaded content or its uploader is presenting. If it was honored to the full extent, everything outside of wads that use strictly iwad resources, or 100% verified originals would likely get the shaft, which is a lot of things. But what will probably actually happen is anytime a dbp gets uploaded, some doomworld/bethesda simp will get their friends to mass report it and they will get in the habit of taking down dbps without even checking to see whats wrong because the entire brand is 'verified assholes.' (im saying dbps, but i loosely mean any banned doomworld mappers and perceived trolls that make anything short of 100% original content) The good news is I think bethesda has to pay people to monitor/maintain this and i dont think bethesda has any financial incentive to keep this running forever, so most of the wads that get uploaded are probably all gonna get canned eventually anyway. I would not treat a for-profit service to the community with any kind of permanence.
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Post by thelokk on Aug 11, 2024 6:48:06 GMT -5
anytime a dbp gets uploaded, some doomworld/bethesda simp will get their friends to mass report it and they will get in the habit of taking down dbps A couple DBPs have been uploaded (including 53) and as far as I can tell they're still up. Not saying it won't happen, but - most DWers probably won't be bothered to witch hunt the final product, even though the whole dbp59 situation might suggest otherwise (that specific episode was a preeemptive strike by a couple head honchos to make sure they wouldn't have to acknowledge a DBP as a top 10 of the year).
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Aug 11, 2024 7:57:27 GMT -5
This new release and the way people are responding to it also adds a little weight to a suspicion ive had for a pretty long time. One thing I realize that is in common with most people in the doom community that have a problem with me and the doomer boards brand, or deliberately choose not to associate with me or doomer boards is they either have, are in the process of, or aspire to monetize their doom hobby.
For me, Doomer Boards has kinda always been founded on the principle of making maps only for the community's genuine shared enjoyment of doom in spite of what reputation we have. The projects are liked and enjoyed by many, but we dont have to look good to do stuff that the casual doom-enjoyer would genuinely like and want to play and/or see succeed.
I think the unspoken significance of the doomworld vs. doomer boards feud has much less to do with confusing politics (woke vs. fascism) and instead has to much more to do with "Is this good for your career?"
People who are more career doom mappers/modders have to be more careful about what they say at the risk of obtaining a doom-adjacent career path that could potentially be cancelled. Doomer boards spits in the face of that culture and just makes good doom maps anyway for free.
Doomer boards project cant win a cacoward not because of the reputation we have, but because it shouldnt be allowed to contribute to our marketable Doom resumés, especially in spite of other less successful people who are really trying to make it in the business.
Am i wrong that all these people have, or seem to have genuine aspirations to make money off of the doom and doom-adjacent content they create?
Scuba Steve (action doom 2) Bridgeburner + the hellforge (age of hell) MajorArlene (age of hell) insanegazebo (age of hell) Xaser (legacy or rust, adventures of square) Jimmy (adventures of square) Mtrop (adventures of square) Mechadon (Supplice) Grazza (Selaco, Supplice, and dozens of other monetized doom projects) Andrew Hulshult (monetized doom music/remixes) Esselfortium (monetized doom music/remixes)
Theres a bunch of other people i can list that, while not having any official credits, I think at least have prospects to work on for-profit doom projects, I'm sure, and would serve their interest to network with these people.
Does doomer boards have any accounts from any dev that has ever worked on the explosion of modern boomer shooters in recent years? Would they not benefit from mapping for doom in a "mapping gym" and reading useful testing feedback and good design tutorials that are posted here?
The reason all of them dont have an account here is because of "hate speech?”
I think the doomer boards attitude about not giving a shit about what you write in public is not as big of a problem of politics as having a professional attitude towards Doom mapping because having no intentions to make money off this in any way is bad for business.
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Post by thelokk on Aug 11, 2024 8:05:34 GMT -5
monetize their doom hobby. Don't mean to insult you, but you just discovered cold water. Of course a large part of the Doom community is in the hobby in hopes of being drafted NFL style by Nightdive or Mekworks (professional) or the BTSX team / Squonkers (the equivalent of the junior league big honchos hunt heads in) - it's the new standard of hobbies in general, you don't do it for the fun; you do it in hopes that someday it'll become your day job. Obviously, chances grow exponentially the more: - You keep at the same time a high, yet milquetoast profile; - choke the scene with works, in hope that something eventually will stick; - gain brownie points by piling up on easy targets; I know what I'm talking about because, for a very short while, it's a game I tried to play too. It's how the Doom community works, it's how every hobby community works, it's how 2024 works. The whole 'politics' angle doesn't stand up to scrutiny because DB's DBP people and the DB politik people are almost entirely different entities.
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Justince
Doomer
Professional Face-Puncher
Posts: 494
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Post by Justince on Aug 11, 2024 8:55:29 GMT -5
Lol no wonder they hate you thelokk, you figured out their game in like 9 minutes.
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Post by thelokk on Aug 11, 2024 9:05:55 GMT -5
Lol no wonder they hate you thelokk, you figured out their game in like 9 minutes. I mean, while I disagree with them I don't fault them for playing the game - but I believe one should be transparent about their endgame. That's how communities should work. Side note: it's also pretty funny to me, that most people in the community are actually neutral to positive towards me. A select cadre of clowns has it out for me; those clowns, unfortunately, happen to be in power. For now.
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Post by JadingTsunami on Aug 11, 2024 10:01:20 GMT -5
The fact that Doom is closed-source again is a bit of a sore spot for me, I must admit, though I understand why. Can you help me understand why? I don't see why this is a good thing. Doom's source code was purposefully released in 1997, and Carmack signed off on it. In my opinion: Ostensibly, this is because it's much simpler to publish console games and bind to their SDK without open-source code (which many console SDKs outright forbid). In reality, I think (my opinion only of course) it's that closed-source protects "Doom24" from both copycatting and claims of community open-source reuse showing up in their code (which might subject the whole codebase to be licensed as open-source, and cause a major problem for them, due to the above). Note I have no doubt they did everything possible to prevent open-source appearing in their code; I'm merely saying the suggestions could lead to potential litigation which would be expensive, time-consuming, and never guaranteed to reach any particular conclusion, which might subject them to risk. Keeping it closed-source reduces that risk simply by reducing exposure. The fact that Doom is closed-source again is a bit of a sore spot for me, I must admit, though I understand why. only bethesda's 2024 doom rerelease is closed source? The open source stuff can't be closed (unless it's bsd, mit or something) Correct, but this new release is Doom now. What we call "Doom" is not a distinct thing from the release in a commercial/product sense. I know many will revolt and hate this idea but it's a straight fact and says so in the release. You can reject the framing of course but as time goes on the plan according to the released documents is to continue to extend "Doom" (the commercial product) using ID24 as the framework. Their expectation is that new community maps will adhere to the ID24 standard the same way they adopted Boom, MBF, MBF21, etc. And they are providing a community release area as a sort of incentive to do so: suddenly, your maps are playable on consoles too. Whether this is a good thing or a bad thing depends on your outlook; the only thing guaranteed is strong feelings strongly worded from all sides.
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Post by MegaPancakeStrategist on Aug 11, 2024 10:17:22 GMT -5
Does doomer boards have any accounts from any dev that has ever worked on the explosion of modern boomer shooters in recent years? Don't forget buxomdev (SLOOTER)
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Post by thelokk on Aug 11, 2024 11:06:40 GMT -5
Does doomer boards have any accounts from any dev that has ever worked on the explosion of modern boomer shooters in recent years? Don't forget buxomdev (SLOOTER) Who registered to make a single venting post. Don't mean to raise the bar, but does it truly qualify? More on topic, JadingTsunami since you seem to have it figured, can you explain what this new format in practice means to me, potentially daft meat-and-potatoes mapper? Will I one day open UDB and suddenly there will be a "id24(Doom 2)" option when choosing a map format?
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Post by MegaPancakeStrategist on Aug 11, 2024 11:29:11 GMT -5
Also every DBP release should be clarified to be a FREE download (just keepin' it cheeky)
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Post by qwaz on Aug 11, 2024 12:39:24 GMT -5
This thread opened my eyes. thelokk and 40oz I think if you keep making these amazing maps and people enjoy them, that's the most important thing. The quality of these projects is really fantastic and your maps are always standouts. I thank you guys for your work and this place.
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Lobo
Doomer
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Post by Lobo on Aug 11, 2024 13:56:49 GMT -5
Great, another "standard". Like we don't have enough already.
Worst thing is it is not even finished, was rushed out the door, and not bug free. And to top it all off, it will be a pain in the ass for a lot of ports to implement.
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Post by thelokk on Aug 11, 2024 14:15:02 GMT -5
This thread opened my eyes. thelokk and 40oz I think if you keep making these amazing maps and people enjoy them, that's the most important thing. The quality of these projects is really fantastic and your maps are always standouts. I thank you guys for your work and this place. I really do appreciate the feeling but, at this point, I see fewer and fewer reasons to publish anything. Spending hours on a map or more for a project, to see it posted on a forum whose owners literally told us to fuck off, and all this just to be overshadowed in a matter of hours by some 60 half-hour maps project; or some palette puke, "ironically" HoM-laden aberration which lives off unwarranted traction by virtue of having an entire discord cabal behind it? No, thanks. Fighting in this rat race now feels at best like a fool's errand; at worst like giving pearl to swine. I don't want to learn a new map format, I don't want to build stuff so it can be "palatable to casual players", and I don't want to shove the fruit of my labor into the black hole of today's Doom community. It's just not fun anymore, and I think I'm really done this time.
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Post by qwaz on Aug 11, 2024 14:49:18 GMT -5
I think most people who are going to play custom maps aren't going to do it through Steam or whatever all the new stuff is. They're going to download a port and do it is my guess.
They might get introduced to it there but once they start looking for more they'll come here. It's what I did.
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