Lobo
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Post by Lobo on Jun 9, 2021 16:03:37 GMT -5
... It is about using real people - dead and living - ... Not really. They would have (and did) go after him for other stuff. As far as I recall, the whole thing started because he used the term "master race" for a difficulty setting. Once there was blood in the water then the frenzy ensued and they started finding all the other stuff, which as luck would have it, was very juicy indeed. |
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xsabersouza
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Born and raised in the fucking Colosseum!
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Post by xsabersouza on Jun 9, 2021 16:44:53 GMT -5
And it's easy to point that offensive thing and be like "What, so you are supporting that? What a monster?". But then you move on and start nitpicking other things. Are you sure you're not just being paranoid? Let's say you buy a car, but you're not sure the dealer is an honest guy. Almost every independent car dealer ever is a bit sleazy; at least where I live. You see there's a problem according to the engine lights, so you start checking what's going on. You find the source of the problem, and decide to check what else could be wrong, because you want to make sure you didn't get ripped off. Turns out you find more stuff, and overall you get the sense that you've been cheated by the dealer. What now? Are you going be the controlling SJW asshole and demand your money back? Yes, you're going to ask for some compensation. Same thing with BoA. People saw some shit they didn't like, and of course they start looking if there's more. Don't pretend that's a miracle or some conspiracy. People get suspicious, so they take a closer look. Turns out you find more shit when you do. If you think this only happens in the safe spaces of SJWs, Marxists, and other rotten sinkholes you need to wake up and smell the coffee. |
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Jun 9, 2021 18:03:30 GMT -5
There's no financial incentive to do it.
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xsabersouza
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Post by xsabersouza on Jun 9, 2021 18:25:47 GMT -5
So? You see some shit and you start looking for more -> you find more, you keep looking. Still holds up as a principle, even if money is no object. Classic cause and effect, man. Assuming that people only start digging because of some illuminati conspiracy crap is nonsense, because everybody does it when there's a reason. We can say that the reason may be questionable in this case, because it's still art, but that's a different discussion.
If you believe that calling a difficulty level 'Master Race' isn't a reason to take a closer and maybe uncharitable look that's your business, but don't be surprised if connotations with that expression come full-circle to cave somebody's face in when it's not the only thing that pisses people off.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2021 23:59:42 GMT -5
A lot of you have apparently misunderstood my concerns in regards to Tormentor667 as a commentary on DW actions. Granted, this is because the topic is "doom community", whereas my actual concern happens to be a little bit offtopic since it concerns actions of an individual. I actually feel uneasy myself about what BoA is described to include. I am not trying to justify DW actions, it just happens that "part of the setting" doesn't ring true for me in regards to: - real names of real-life holocaust victims included in concentration camp where you kill them as zombies - a derogatory portrayal (drunkard talking about his big (content removed)) of transgendered doomer (whose gender identity is female) is included, and they are also deadnamed Where this things not given real people names, I wouldn't have objections to that. Killing fictional zombie prisoners in fictional concentration camp would be acceptable to me, killing zombie prisoners that are supposed to represent real-life victims in real-life concentration camp is beyond the pale. Putting in real-life villains such as Mengele or Hitler is likewise ok, because their guilt is proven beyond reasonable doubt and is well-established. However making enemies from real-life prisoners of war, who were unarmed and enslaved after their capture and eventually executed? See, in regards to Shadowman saying that monsters represent protesters in his Anti-maydan map, he didn't put the real names of protesters into that map. It is a fictional element. Lara Croft was likewise a fictional character. Neither did Impie put real-life names of BLM activists or real-life names of people promoting lockdown. His anti-lockdown statement didn't use real-life people, but was conveyed through fictional characters. "Master race" difficulty name is not a problem for me, given that Nazis are enemies, it can be seen as ironic statement that the real masters are those who oppose the Nazis. Fuck those "homages" referencing real people though. The problem is that I apparently will have to play the entire mod to find out whether it is truly wicked, cause I haven't yet. Assuming that people only start digging because of some illuminati conspiracy crap is nonsense, because everybody does it when there's a reason. Yes, that's what I am thinking. If a moderation team on DW banned a spambot spamming nonsense AI-generated crap in all forums, or links to malware, you would also scream "them crazy leftists"? You see, sometimes happens that biased people ban actual crap that you would ban as well. I still need to evaluate my stance towards Tormentor667 based on things I will see myself as opposed to reported by others, but if things are confirmed to be as they are, well... it might be that at last we are dealing with an actual problematic person and not just someone with a political opinion. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2021 0:17:22 GMT -5
The act of doxxing someone wouldn't be excusable by free speech either, for those who might have trouble understanding my previous post. The line is drawn when real-life people are misrepresented or made easy target for those seeking to commit horrible crimes against them. And as you can see, the line is drawn concretely.
I also have no issue with including real gore in a mod (like Sergeant Mark IV did in the past) if it is not identifiable. If, however, a real person can be identified from gore pieces, that's another story.
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Post by optimus on Jun 10, 2021 1:19:26 GMT -5
Ok, I was very angry yesterday. I can agree that the only insensitive thing that maybe went over the line would be the real Jew names as zombie prisoners. But would still play the WAD and not care. Maybe I could reach that point (if it's not removed) and see how it's portrayed. Sometimes things that are described as horrible end up not being as horrible when you play them.
But the rest are ridiculous. I laugh at Master Race. I used the phrase PC Master Race back in the console wars, maybe someone had a beef for what I know. I do remember when they wanted to change the master-slave from HD configuration because of the slavery connotations, or change the male-female cables because it's considered sexist. No, I don't think Master Race is a serious offence that most people would agree to remove.
My disappointment here is that I've noticed things change in the communities since the 90s.
And actually it's not just the censorship but the people. Their tone of the voice or writing, it's like they have taken the authoritarian role, backed up by the whole culture of today, where they will be supported by this whole ethos of cleaning the spaces from toxic behavior, etc.
There is something fundamendaly different and I don't know if people changed. A lot of people apologetically admit "in the 90s I was an edgelord but now the zeitgeist has changed, so I have to go on with the present norms". It's like they subtly admit "yeah I also don't like, but I have to follow the cult now, because it's the new world order".
So, I am really interested, not just distressed, but interested what's going on in these people's mind. I might even have known some people in some other communities in the past, it's like someone took their minds and change it, they own their minds. This is how it feels to me.
So sometimes my disapointment is also a bewilderment, don't know what's going on anymore?
Meanwhile, I somehow become aware and furious of this whole thing, so now people also look at me and say "What happened to you? Why did you turned to the alt-right?".
Which I didn't, I just stay the same as I was, I can't blindly take this new orthodoxy.
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xsabersouza
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Post by xsabersouza on Jun 10, 2021 2:45:08 GMT -5
No, I don't think Master Race is a serious offence that most people would agree to remove. My disappointment here is that I've noticed things change in the communities since the 90s. And actually it's not just the censorship but the people. Their tone of the voice or writing, it's like they have taken the authoritarian role, backed up by the whole culture of today 'Master Race' in the context of console versus PC? I don't see the problem. 'Master Race' in the context of a game set in WWII? That's different. 'Master Race' was removed because enough people wanted it gone. If the SJWs have today's entire culture backing them up, then it can't be true that 'most people' are cool with 'Master Race' in that game. Are the few hundred SJWs in daddy's basement pulling the strings, or is it the entire culture of today? It can't be both at once. You sound like my neighbour who says that the fucking refugees only come to Germany to live the high life at the expense of tax payers like me, while they also take away all the jobs. |
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Post by optimus on Jun 10, 2021 2:58:32 GMT -5
I never said anything about refugees. You connected me without any reason to the far-right.
In reality, the new SJW culture it looks like most people agree, but it's only few controlling people and others that don't talk, and it gives the impression that most people would agree these are offensive. It creates a new pseudo-reality where you think people universally think something is offensive, and only a horrible person would still support. They push psychologically the whole culture in such a way that it gives the impression to the average normie that "OHHH! I guess that's the new commonly accepted don't say word, I guess I must have not being paying attention, now I just have to follow else I am one of those living in the 50s".
Also, what if we made an anonymous vote for who wants or not "Master Race" in that game? Some people who paid attention to that controversy said "yes I don't want this" but does it represent all?
Actually, I see "Master Race" as a joke for hardest difficulty (only a master race would be able to beat it), it has a connotation with what it has of course, but you play again the NAZIs so, it's not like it makes you a NAZI or something. Actually no, what if someone made a game like this, but you can chose your side, you can be the Allies or you can be the NAZIs. I'd love to see some game like that. Who could say "why do you allow people to play as NAZIs?". But we give equal opportunity to chose your side.
I still don't think "Master Race" is offensive even in a game like this, but that's just me. I think people have lost their minds.
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xsabersouza
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Post by xsabersouza on Jun 10, 2021 3:28:14 GMT -5
I never said anything about refugees. You connected me without any reason to the far-right. The example with those refugees is the same as your self-contradiction with those SJWs. Two statements that are mutually exclusive in most scenarios. Either the SJWs are a small but very vocal minority, or it's today's entire culture. I can't be both. Either, all refugees take people's jobs away, or they spend their days at home at the expense of the working class. It can't be both. What is so difficult about this? And where did I say you were far-right? That's right; nowhere. In reality, the new SJW culture it looks like most people agree, but it's only few controlling people and others that don't talk, and it gives the impression that most people would agree these are offensive. Dude, did you see what the fuck happened on SJW world? Most people there fucking hate Tormentor now, the few peeps who stepped up for him got flamed by a lynch mob. The threads exploded in a matter of hours. How can any of that happen if most people say nothing? And how can a few basement dwellers control the entire cultural paradigm against the will of an overwhelming majority when something becomes a shitstorm that makes the rounds on fucking twitter? Do you notice that nothing you say fits together with the bigger picture? Actually no, what if someone made a game like this, but you can chose your side, you can be the Allies or you can be the NAZIs. I'd love to see some game like that. Man, you're living under a rock. 'Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory' was exactly that game. You could play for the Third Reich or for the Allies. You know what that game didn't have? Shooting Zombie Jews, or a level called 'Master Race'. The game was released in 2003. And the vast majority of people who knew about it had no problems with that game despite the setting. People still play that game today. That should tell you that it's okay to have games set in WWII, and that it's fine to play on either side of the war. But it should also tell you that some of the stuff in Tormentor's game is too much in today's world where playing online as a Soldier under Hitler's command is acceptable. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2021 3:57:59 GMT -5
It's hard to follow up on who is supporting what here. Let's just say we can debate whether Tormentor667 included wrong kind of content in BoA and whether he did this intentionally WITHOUT throwing support behind cancel culture. I oppose cancel culture, but I think it looks plausible enough Tormentor667 did things that he surely shouldn't have done. I am open to reevaluate my position if my experience with BoA will contradict it, but I won't have time to play BoA for a good while.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2021 4:33:55 GMT -5
a derogatory portrayal (drunkard talking about his big (content removed)) It all comes down to one thing: Whether or not Xeep-eep gave consent to be included in the game. |
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Jun 10, 2021 7:06:24 GMT -5
Here's one way I know this sensitivity is all a facade. One recurring event that happens a lot in BoA that is particularly nauseating to me and deters your progress in the game if you don't do it is that you shoot dogs in the game. What the fuck, B.J., those dogs don't know they're working for the nazis, dude...? "lmfao wow nice virtue signaling 40iq but attack dogs are already in wolf3d, fkin idiot lol"uh huh Nevermind that thousands of Americans reported having their dogs SHOT indiscriminately by scared cops. This is really frightening information for pet owners. There's many hundreds of videos where cops just walk in and open fire on dogs before they even get up out of their beds. Long before they can even justifiably be considered a threat. This is data we didn't have in 1992. I enjoyed Wolf3D before I ever owned a dog, and I do remember enjoying it a lot, but I'm pretty disinterested in simulating killing dogs and listening to them wail in 2021, even when they are trained to bite me by the nazis. That's not the 'hero' I want to be. It's not part of history and not even crucial to the plot of the game. I dont have to kill dogs just because the nazis own them. Take note as you read through this that the controversy about BoA is surrounding anything that's unique to the BoA team's creation in this fictional universe. All the poorly aged and terribly insensitive intellectual property of wolf3d is fine. Anything that is original and can be distilled from the brains of BoA's team is bad. There's nothing to say about people who have a problem with greta grosse's boobs falling out her shirt in her death animation, (or whatever the new character's name is) but all the merciless animal cruelty goes unquestioned. They're lying. They care about taking down BoA. It's not about the content. |
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Jun 10, 2021 7:17:27 GMT -5
Also I do agree with @vigilantdoomer that using the real names and likenesses of people, especially other members of the doom community is psychological warfare, even if unintentional. It's bad but I would treat it like an accident, because it's not easy to know how you are treating people over the internet when you can't see their faces as they react to it.
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xsabersouza
Doomer
Born and raised in the fucking Colosseum!
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Post by xsabersouza on Jun 10, 2021 17:59:55 GMT -5
40oz I think if all they cared about was talking down on that mod, they would be talking about both, because there have got to be dog owners on that forum. The comparison between cops shooting dogs that aren't a threat and dogs 'trained' to kill the player as quickly as possible doesn't do it for me. The dogs in Tormentor's game are 'coded' to be a threat to the player in any circumstance as far as I know. If the game allowed or even incentivized players to kill dogs that are no threat, then it's a good time to talk about animal cruelty in a video game. Psychological warfare could be an overstatement in most cases, but I'm not sure where I stand when the question about intentionality is raised. If I made a game set in WWII, I would ask people if I can put them in the game before I do that. Doing it in reverse order, and inserting people's names into a Wolfenstein game without anybody's permission is a red flag if you ask me.
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peerdolius
Doomer
I met God and he was THOD - Viper
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Post by peerdolius on Jun 10, 2021 20:43:49 GMT -5
 lmao |
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matador
You're trying to say you like DOS better than me, right?
I feel asleep.
Posts: 1,190
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Post by matador on Jun 10, 2021 21:09:41 GMT -5
Wow, I didn't know it won a Cacoward. Haven't been following this drama too closely, I wonder if people will call for it to be stripped of it (or maybe they already have).
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MegaPancakeStrategist
You're trying to say you like DOS better than me, right?
IF YOU ARE READING THIS YOUR MAP NEEDS MORE LIGHTING VARIATION
Posts: 1,011
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Post by MegaPancakeStrategist on Jun 10, 2021 21:20:11 GMT -5
matador Where it shows 100,000 Revenants in that picture is actually Blade of Agony Episode 1.
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matador
You're trying to say you like DOS better than me, right?
I feel asleep.
Posts: 1,190
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Post by matador on Jun 10, 2021 21:58:50 GMT -5
matador Where it shows 100,000 Revenants in that picture is actually Blade of Agony Episode 1. I know, I was talking about Blade of Agony, not the Revenant one. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2021 22:09:05 GMT -5
So did anybody manage to download a copy of BoA before Tormentor667 took it down? I'd like to play the original, not politically corrected version.
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MegaPancakeStrategist
You're trying to say you like DOS better than me, right?
IF YOU ARE READING THIS YOUR MAP NEEDS MORE LIGHTING VARIATION
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Post by MegaPancakeStrategist on Jun 11, 2021 22:17:24 GMT -5
@vordakk
Blade of Agony Director's Cut
Here you go.
EDIT: Taking it down for space.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2021 2:06:24 GMT -5
I played Dynamite Duchess (by Impie) a bit, got past the boss fight and am exploring Castle Quarantine, honestly I can't see how could this offend anyone. I mean, the "political" stuff is really benign, you should actively and intentionally project it on the real world if you want to get triggered, and honestly even then it is gonna be hard. This is a very enjoyable mod (although I picked the easiest difficulty), and story scenes are done in a very interesting way too, it is good that player can move around while they happen and collect stuff, modders take cue from this. Calling this "political commentary" is overblown, there is no political commentary here, the theme of quarantine and lockdowns seem to be more of an inspiration.
The "A week or two....A week or two....A week or two..." also hit the point of how vulnerable people like me where on the edge of complete psychic breakdown while waiting for lockdown to be lifted, and it always was extended... two month later after it all started when talking over a phone I have found by then that I don't really relate to normal people anymore, the ones who happily went outside when (or even before) it was legally possible. I think it is rather people who are pro-lockdown who are the ableist ones, because they don't even realize how deeply isolation can affect some people, who maybe good physically and productive to society but not that tough mentally. It is like being arrested without a crime, and without certainty that there ever be release.
As for Blade of Agony, I downloaded the "Director's Cut" version too, cause I want to see whether the things were actually as bad as they were portrayed.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2021 10:29:29 GMT -5
Thanks!! Much appreciated! |
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Justince
Doomer
Professional Face-Puncher
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Post by Justince on Jun 12, 2021 10:53:20 GMT -5
I played Dynamite Duchess (by Impie) a bit, got past the boss fight and am exploring Castle Quarantine, honestly I can't see how could this offend anyone. Like 40oz said, it was never about being offended. This is the purity spiral, the litmus test to see if you're leftist and malleable enough to be allowed to succeed at Doomworld. My problem with turds like Scuba Steve is the same beef I have with these shitty woke comedians like Jimmy Kimmel and Sarah Silverman. They benefited and built their careers on offensive, edgy humor, climbed the top of the pile and pulled the ladder up behind themselves just to piss on everyone's face, waggle their finger and say "Don't you dare do what I did!" Ever notice how the people holding all the cards are always the ones insisting 'time have changed?' Yeah dude, times have changed, you don't get to make the content you intended to make because offense now comes before intent. Also I'm holding a gun to your head and can kick you off the planet unless you agree with my assertion that times have changed. Wow what a great scam you've put together here. The comic book industry (I'm a big comic book fan) is a perfect example for how times HAVEN'T changed, and there's a healthy market for non-trash woke content. The manga Demon Hunter outsold the entire domestic comic book industry in less than one year. ONE MANGA. "As of February this year, they had an estimated sales total of $2.6 billion in Japan alone, roughly 150 million units sold. This is a lot higher than current American comic book estimates, which is around 15 million units."For those that don't know, the mainstream comic book industry has been infested with diversity hires and unqualified leftist assholes for years. These people have extorted their way into positions of power they did not deserve by using their fashionable identities (where have I heard that before). They keep getting book runs despite selling less and less books. Their book are terribly edited, shallow and boring with ham-fisted virtue signalling and unrealistic depictions (like every female character being a lesbian. You can just look a the cover of a Vita Ayala book and know every character is gay). Many with spelling mistakes and inking errors, because the editors are too scared to confront them least they lose their jobs. If you follow the twitter of these woke comic book pros you will see some of the most racist, hateful people on Earth who go out of their way to destroy people just for fun. Where have we seen this before? Now the real talent in comics who didn't want to see racial segregation take over (which it has; at Marvel for example only black authors can write black characters, I shit you not) have all bailed and started their own publishing outfits out of their homes. This is where you'll hear the term 'comicsgate'. It's just a group of perfectly normal adults who didn't want to be under the authority of cultural marxists. Guess what the old pros are making? Woke politically correct comics? No, of course not, they are making old-school action comics full of guns, boobs and babes. AND THEY ARE MAKING MILLIONS. Ethan Van Sciver of All Caps Comics has made over 2 million in sales on his one book Cyberfrog, humiliating the two biggest names in comics in the country out of his garage. TiMEs HaVe cHaNGEd though, right? No they haven't Scuba. YOU CHANGED. You decided to carry water for phony, disingenuous woke assholes WHO OPENLY HATE YOU AS A WHITE CIS-MAN, and will throw you to the wolves if they catch one iota of dissent. You could test that theory if you wanted, of course. Just make a simple Doom mod called 'Women Have Vaginas' and see how far you get. Enjoy the fucking environment of fear and intimidation you faggots have built, I hope it serves you well (until you get a bullet in the back of the head). |
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Jun 12, 2021 11:43:35 GMT -5
I played Dynamite Duchess (by Impie) a bit, got past the boss fight and am exploring Castle Quarantine, honestly I can't see how could this offend anyone. Like 40oz said, it was never about being offended. This is the purity spiral, the litmus test to see if you're leftist and malleable enough to be allowed to succeed at Doomworld. My problem with turds like Scuba Steve is the same beef I have with these shitty woke comedians like Jimmy Kimmel and Sarah Silverman. They benefited and built their careers on offensive, edgy humor, climbed the top of the pile and pulled the ladder up behind themselves just to piss on everyone's face, waggle their finger and say "Don't you dare do what I did!" I definitely get what you're saying here with the gatekeeping. I see what you're saying about comedy, but the comparison is a little off. In comedy standup, if you're successful, you have mass appeal and a lot of reach. Everyone wants to be funny, so they watch comedians for entertainment and to have jokes to tell their coworkers at the office. When a comediate sells massive tickets and their act is saying hurtful things to people, that comedian is giving all their fans agency to say hurtful things to people around them under the guise of " i'm just joking around. i heard a comedian say it. it's comedy" That makes the world a pretty toxic place. I really like that there are comedians who are using their voices to put barriers on people's careers who define their comedy by punching down on people who don't have a platform to defend themselves. You really don't need to hurt people to be funny. I think there's a real worldly purpose to being a 'woke' comedian and I wish there were more of them. What's going on in the doom community is different. It's not leftist politics or reacting to offensive stuff. As we've covered many times before, their actions are wildly inconsistent with ideas, but very consistent with people and the people they associate with. I follow a lot of leftist stuff and I like and truly believe it is the way forward, but what's going on in doomworld is definitely not it. I think their motivation is that they legitimately want to see people suffer and their projects fail. Either as retribution for something similar they experienced in the past, or to tear others down to make their own doom projects and reputation seem superior in comparison. Which is just fucking sad. Just be a good person and make good doom maps. The left vs. right politics is a distraction because it's a more socially palatable way to justify what they're doing. They won't say that they hate specific people and want to see them fail at anything they try to do. Being perceived as a good person is everything to them. What these people on doomworld don't understand is that when people have disorders or mental health issues that make socializing in their real life really challenging, these people often flock to gaming communities -- fringe ones at that, like Doom. They go to gaming communities because thats a way to meet people with a common interest you might not have the opportunity to in your personal life. Sometimes these communities are all they got. People like these Blade of Agony guys spend many years working on a doom project that looks and plays well and is a love letter to their favorite video game franchise. They spent most of their lives probably having little to no attention at all. Then on release day, they get a fucking tsunami of negative attention all at once because they actually tried at something that they really sincerely cared about. Some people legitimately can't handle that. They lose their fucking minds. Holy fuck. When you're writing forum posts over the internet directed at someone and their thoughts and ideas, you really have no way of knowing how much your words hurt. They keep it together because they don't want to look vulnerable to you on the internet, so they ante-up, get tough, and type a really wordy defensive response. But you can't see them. For all you know, they could be not sleeping at night, ugly crying, nose dripping all over their keyboards as they click that post button. Why the fuck would you do this to someone, even your worst enemy? What do you get out of that? It's really disturbing. This shit really fucks with me because i love this game, the good wads and the bad ones. I love the brains of everyone involved, the creative energy they put into their work that makes the game more diverse and enjoyable. I love all Doomers, but it's really painful for me to watch doom fans go after each other like this. Life is hard enough. I don't know what their going through but it better be fucking horrible if they really can't control themselves from hurting people so bad. Some of these people have in-progress doom projects with multi-year development cycles, (or they don't fucking create ANYTHING USEFUL AT ALL!) but they have plenty energy to post on the internet about how bad someone needs to feel about themselves. I don't have a lot of patience left for that kind of shit. These are really fucked up people and someone keeps giving them power and influence to keep doing. I really hate it. |
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