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Post by middleclassworm on Jun 8, 2021 12:39:36 GMT -5
Scuba mentions in one of his earlier posts in this thread that Impie was incapable to follow some "established rules". But what ARE those rules exactly? "No politics in Doom wads"? Then what about a map called "Alfonzo Tries to Prevent Donald Trump from Starting Third Impact", in which you actually killing Donald Trump (yes, he has appearance of an ordinary zombieman, but author himself clarified this particular aspect). This isn’t political enough? Or how about “Northern Powerhouse”, rant in a form of Doom map about UK politics? I’m not even going to talk about “Lilium” and its political subtext.
And that’s only the tip of the iceberg. I’m yet to see someone being offended by those maps. But why is shitpost about killing Donald Trump better than the calm story about lockdowns? I don’t know – and yet, both can be offensive to someone.
The worst part of all this is that the DW moderators themselves is a offended side in almost every case, thus becoming not a “moderators” in truest sense of this word, but a full-fledged side of conflict, that has enough power and influence to literally squish their opponents. It was Not Jabba, who starts the whole chain of events, which led to a Shadowman ban. It was rd who wrote extremely intimidating “review” of Mano Laikas, effectively bullying Nicolas Monti into changing textures for one map in it (nobody has a single issue with this wad for a 4 years).
The question from the beginning of my post was a rhetorical one. There are no rules, other than “Don’t do stuff that moderators will not like”. As seen from examples above, that might be anything. Who would have thought, that crucified Lara Croft can offend someone? And pictures of a girl in a secret map as a reason for accusations in cyberstalking – are you kidding me? Doomworld at this point basically become a territory of fear – where one cannot be sure that he’s not going to be next in their cancel-list.
I see only two options here for Doomworld:
1. “Offensive wads” are not banned (excluding extreme cases, like pictures of a real gore and alike)
2. “Offensive” wads of any kind (including political) are strictly forbidden, and there an actual list of what exactly is not allowed.
Both options are better than situation that we have today. I certainly don’t want to see a Doom mapping scene die because of some small circle of Pharisees, who thinks that they can make up rules on the spot.
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Post by optimus on Jun 8, 2021 12:48:19 GMT -5
And finally, what about that other stupid Doomworld post that also got locked. Scubasteve is making examples of what is and isn't allowed like it's moral common sense. What if I have a different view? You present like a universal truth that we (who? am I put in the same group of men only in the negative sense for things that my ancestors may or may have not done?) treated women unfairly throughout the whole history, so we should take care about them as a group like they are a protected species. I know this is extremely popular because NOBODY wants to be seen as misogynistic as it feels like a social suicide. And that forgets that maybe, maybe men through whole history where also treated badly if not worse. Because most men just fought in wars and many times without their will. But we forget that! We always have this paradigm of this being the normal way of things, zero possibility of every thinking of men dying in video games as insensitive (unless you can inscribe some minority status in their profile). I remember the shitstorm on Ascension WAD with the easter egg with Lara Croft on the cross, oh a woman tortured how horrible, but all the bodies of tortured men you found beforehand in game just expected. And you can make justfications that the context was different and the developer has a history, but the point is here that we never even consider men as every being the victims. And to not misunderstand, I don't want to be considered a victim, I never identified strongly with men as a group (as we push women to identify). I always identified as an individual who is on his own. But the point is to show how much of a blind eye we have on men ever suffering, and how on the contrary big focus we have for every slightly insensitive for the women group, while if we could truly see history under a full perspective, I don't think it was men always dominating over women always oppressed.
As someone put it about our culture, and maybe the most beautiful and mind opening statement for me, "Women are human beings, Men are human doings"
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40oz
diRTbAg
Posts: 6,111
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Post by 40oz on Jun 8, 2021 13:44:44 GMT -5
Nobody is actually offended. They've just chosen who they want to succeed in the doom community. That's why when the BoA team spends many years working on and perfecting a mod with a rich story line and theatrical appearance, it gets dragged. But anyone in the credits of Back To Saturn X can make a stupid speedmap with misaligned textures as a creative choice and it gets unanimous praise by forum members who haven't even played Doom in the past 6 months.
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xeepeep
Banned
Forever
Posts: 2,338 
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Post by xeepeep on Jun 8, 2021 14:08:48 GMT -5
Hurry up and die from Covid so the adults can continue talking. Based! |
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peerdolius
Doomer
I met God and he was THOD - Viper
Posts: 181
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Post by peerdolius on Jun 8, 2021 14:54:55 GMT -5
The virgin doomworld vs the Chad DoomerBoards
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xeepeep
Banned
Forever
Posts: 2,338
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Post by xeepeep on Jun 8, 2021 15:26:00 GMT -5
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Post by scubasteve on Jun 8, 2021 17:33:01 GMT -5
A lot of the justifications are ridiculous, like you are trying to find insensitivity in everything [...] In Return to Castle Wolfenstein, after escaping the prison, you find rotten tortured electrocuted body. What about the real persons that were tortured in real life? No!!! It's a setting of what would really happen in Nazi Germany, that's ridiculous! There's no line distinguishing when something becomes *too* offensive; it's a continuum and, at some point, you find yourself in territory that is more offensive than not to a greater number of individuals. At what point along this line do the majority of people say "Too much..." shooting demons > shooting Nazis > shooting Nazi zombies > shooting zombie prisoners > shooting zombie Jewish prisoners > playing a mod where you are a Nazi shooting Jewish prisoners in a concentration camp. At some point you find yourself in too deep and you've crossed the line when things become culturally unacceptable. This changes based on your culture and over time; in the 1950s, Amos and Andy wore Blackface and performed minstrels shows on TV... in 2021, that's simply not culturally acceptable in America anymore. When I was a teenager, we used 'gay' to describe everything and played 'smear the queer'... since then attitudes about same-sex marriage and homosexuality have completely reversed; what was not offensive when I was a child, became offensive to many more people over the course of my lifetime. Mushroom and I had a nice private chat about why, even sardonically, telling people to die from covid is offensive, and it drives home the fact that we aren't just usernames, genders or races on paper... we're individuals with our own struggles, demons and stressors. We live in a world where we have to get along with other people and we take steps every day to live with them. We are constantly making judgement calls on how to communicate without offending the people around us... and this goes for projects we create. I'm not particularly offended by concentration camp gas zombies, but I'd wager a large population of Jews might. You'll never appease everyone, but if you employ a little empathy, you can probably avoid offending a lot of people. It took xsabersouza dunking on me to remind me of this. |
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MegaPancakeStrategist
You're trying to say you like DOS better than me, right?
IF YOU ARE READING THIS YOUR MAP NEEDS MORE LIGHTING VARIATION
Posts: 1,011
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Post by MegaPancakeStrategist on Jun 8, 2021 18:08:19 GMT -5
Tormentor667 is now banned from Doomworld. Realm667 is also offline.
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xeepeep
Banned
Forever
Posts: 2,338
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Post by xeepeep on Jun 8, 2021 18:46:22 GMT -5
Tormentor667 is now banned from Doomworld. Caught plagiarising again or what? |
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NuMetalManiak
Doomer
Elite Rustler (not related to Puga)
Posts: 110
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Post by NuMetalManiak on Jun 8, 2021 18:53:29 GMT -5
Forgot to mention, even though I took like a 3-year hiatus from this forum due to lack of interest, I surprisingly remember my own account and password. This place is still a nice place to cool off every now and then to talk about things you like and dislike. You guys are cool.
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40oz
diRTbAg
Posts: 6,111
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Post by 40oz on Jun 8, 2021 19:07:43 GMT -5
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2021 21:38:26 GMT -5
I guess the lesson here is that art can no longer be controversial in nature, unless the controversial aspects are in line with what the snowflakes deem to be appropriate. Double standards, hypocrisy, cancel culture...that's what this whole thing reeks of. I'm genuinely confused by the logic honestly. So what if someone makes a work of art solely to trigger or offend someone else? Sometimes those works spark a larger conversation and bring everyone closer to the truth. If you are so confident in your argument, then someone's artistic statement shouldn't bother you because you are able to defend your position with logic and reason.
And here's the best part, if you think that someone's art will offend you...YOU CAN CHOOSE NOT TO DOWNLOAD AND PLAY IT! Crazy, huh?
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dn
Body Count: 02
the motherfucking darknation
Posts: 1,762 
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Post by dn on Jun 9, 2021 4:31:16 GMT -5
feminism shit has been split from this thread and is now contained. Never say I do nothing for the community. |
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Lobo
Doomer
Posts: 594
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Post by Lobo on Jun 9, 2021 7:04:19 GMT -5
Looks like Torm has took his ball and gone home: apparently realm667 is shut down.
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MegaPancakeStrategist
You're trying to say you like DOS better than me, right?
IF YOU ARE READING THIS YOUR MAP NEEDS MORE LIGHTING VARIATION
Posts: 1,011
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Post by MegaPancakeStrategist on Jun 9, 2021 8:43:39 GMT -5
Aaaaand now realm667 is back online!
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Lobo
Doomer
Posts: 594
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Post by Lobo on Jun 9, 2021 10:04:26 GMT -5
Didnt this happen before not long ago?
DejaVu
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walterc
Doomer
Hell Knight Best Grill
Posts: 419
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Post by walterc on Jun 9, 2021 12:26:22 GMT -5
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xsabersouza
Doomer
Born and raised in the fucking Colosseum!
Posts: 13
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Post by xsabersouza on Jun 9, 2021 14:02:41 GMT -5
LOL! It's no surprise people are sick of relying on tormentor when he throws temper tantrums like that. He's put more time and money into Doom than most people I guess, so I get that he pulled the plug when the brigade went for his ass. But it's probably good to have a repository that works independently of his precious feelings, just in case.
Spicy hot edit: How fucking stupid are people anyway? If what the circle jerk says is true, tormentor has been an asshat for years. And there was nobody who thought it could be a good idea to pull his repo and set up a mirror?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2021 14:30:16 GMT -5
So, Tormentor667 got banned by Mordeth, not by new moderation team, and I think that his ban might, just might, be justified (I still need to be careful to do my own research about this, because DW had been misrepresenting things in the past, in regards to Shadowman for example). The mod, as I understood, goes beyond art territory into making acute references to real world victims, giving their names no less, and features derogatory portrayal of famous doomers without their consent. In both cases, these are referred to as "homages". Tormentor667 also attempted to deflect the matter by stating that entire team of reputable playtesters didn't report these issues. Visiting DW is not necessary, there is a github discussion that will take you a lot less time to read, and mentions all of this things: github.com/Realm667/WolfenDoom/issues/782Here is a point: real life victims didn't turn into zombies that you had then to kill. This universe is obviously fictional and should have featured fictional characters as far as victims are concerned. If the concentration camp was also given a fictional name, then there would be no issues pertaining to avoiding stating the names of real victims. So I don't really think this is covered by free speech, when it treats other people lives as the resource to rehash. I don't agree with comparing Impie to Tormentor667 as was done in DW thread (the drama load starts here: www.doomworld.com/forum/topic/71736-wolfenstein-blade-of-agony-achievement-ideas-p13/?page=13 , the comparison is towards the later pages). Impie's political statements were placed in fictional universes, he didn't attribute controversial remarks to real people, etc. So I think that closing the thread of Impie's latest mod and banning him was unjustified. It's different with Tormentor667 - even though I am going to give myself some more time to think about it, I am currently leaning towards that there was indeed some malicious intent behind its making, on behalf of Tormentor667. I have also to think carefully on whether it is correct to ban a member in such cases. Note that the Tormentor667 case, unlike Impie's, is not about expressing controversial/political opinions, but an issue of a person actually doing things to traumatise others, with multiple facts seemingly summing up that it was also done with deliberation. |
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Post by optimus on Jun 9, 2021 14:59:05 GMT -5
They just want control. All these SJWs want control. That's it.
I read the github drama for the first time, nitpicking moralizing,.. it's a fucking WAD about Nazis with concentration camps for levels, it's grotesque by it's nature, but that's because it's a game about that era! Make a wolfenstein inspired mode, any wolfenstein inspired mode, throw it into a cesspit of SJWs and there is no way they won't find something. The justification are like, this is insensitive but this is not exactly insensitive but it is depending on the context, which context I DECIDE. Everyone has a different context, but it's obvious to me now, these people just want to have control over things, they love it, they love pointing out any minimal things. Tormentor should have told them to go fuck themselves, and not play this game "Oh I am sorry, let's discuss it, let's cut this but not that, let's complicate the moral relative nitpicking". No! I remember Richard Stallman who got cancelled anyway, I remember he had a disagreement about gender pronouns, but instead of saying FUCKING NO, he started analyzing pronouns and creating his own cringe.
You might say that we should be polite and cooperate, but they don't want that, they want to push control under the pretence of trying to help you. Slowly slowly sneeking in moralities, till more and more things are considered insensitive. At some point, regular people in society, and even outside of Doomworld would say the fuck you!
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2021 15:13:57 GMT -5
Yeah, I know DW wants control, but in this particular case, it's not a political statement we are dealing with. It is about using real people - dead and living - in a fictional universe, in a manner they would probably not agree to be used. Would you or your family really like if, after you being executed with a gas in real life, you were portrayed in a game as a zombie who has to be killed by the player?
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joe-ilya
Hey, Ron! Can we say 'fuck' in the game?
a simple word, a simple turd
Posts: 3,077
Member is Online
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Post by joe-ilya on Jun 9, 2021 15:25:59 GMT -5
Finally Tormentor left after making his 50 chapter long farewell.
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Post by optimus on Jun 9, 2021 15:38:24 GMT -5
Yeah, I know DW wants control, but in this particular case, it's not a political statement we are dealing with. It is about using real people - dead and living - in a fictional universe, in a manner they would probably not agree to be used. Would you or your family really like if, after you being executed with a gas in real life, you were portrayed in a game as a zombie who has to be killed by the player? I am focused on their attitude. It's always easy to find something that is more offensive than offensive, and it's also in the eye of the beholder. And it's easy to point that offensive thing and be like "What, so you are supporting that? What a monster?". But then you move on and start nitpicking other things. They nitpick that in the Paris level there were poster with anti-jew propaganda, but this is supposed to be part of the setting. And they would excuse, saying it's unnecessary since the original wolfenstein didn't do that. They just want to nitpick things. To control things. They would of course point out the biggest offenders, and then move to the smaller offenders. Even if I understand how grotesque it might be to portrait real holocaust victims as zombies, I would make a leap of faith on that (it feels bad supporting such art, that's why we back up and accept) and say free-speech absolutism, I would support the most grotesque stuff, no matter how bad it makes me seem. When political correctness becomes dominant, don't be surprised that we will see the counterattack, with very grotesque far-right shit. And I won't be there to say "bad boy, what kind of monsters!",. I will be like "You seed what you sow bitches!" |
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xeepeep
Banned
Forever
Posts: 2,338
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Post by xeepeep on Jun 9, 2021 15:48:12 GMT -5
github.com/Realm667/WolfenDoom/issues/782 Lmao they can't possibly be serious about any of this shit |
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an0n
Doomer
esselfortiumphobic
Posts: 53
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Post by an0n on Jun 9, 2021 15:59:06 GMT -5
This is what happens when you don't gatekeep, when you don't respect your hobby, when you try to be polite and positive. These leftist retards infiltrate every community, turning it into a boring echochamber of degenerate ideas that have nothing to do with the subject matter.
Keep being kind to people on the internet, you see now how it pays off. A simple "fuck off" would've solved all of this, but it's too late now. It all ended with the removal of Post Hell.
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