Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2024 23:03:17 GMT -5
In theory, you could just go beyond that and not even require the WAD file format at all, which would make it a lot easier to reason about things like load order, etc. There is nothing stopping, for instance, individual UDMF maps from being stored as separate plaintext files in the /maps directory, and nodes stored as either separate files or encoded into the UDMF file itself. I don't see the point, for TCs it would work, but for wads that rely on vanilla textures you would need to get the textures from somewhere. The original Id Software said people could use Doom's assets for Doom mods, Freedoom technically breaks some of that agreement, but it's too irrelevant for them to care about it. If people started playing Doom mods without an Iwad some Bethesda fanboy could send it to them, making they actually care enough to take action. Walking on the edge of legality with Freedoom or a fork seems like the way to go for now. I'm referring to new content, like camper alluded to. You could make a new game base with a minimal set of assets, or simply fork/convert Freedoom to whatever layout you desire which is permissible under its license. ketmar already covered most of the salient points about a proper file format so I won't rehash them. EDIT: On a sort of tangent, Freedoom should really be more about spurring the growth of new content not beholden to id/Bethesda/Microsoft/whatever. I know this diverges from their original intent, but honestly Freedoom doesn't really work well with a lot of PWADs out there; as soon as a PWAD introduces palette swapped/frankensprited/slightly-modified-to-get-around-upload-rule Doom assets it's going to clash pretty badly. In this regard I think Blasphemer is beating the brakes off of FD with a more coherent vision and direction. |
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Post by Moonsweeper on Aug 16, 2024 0:00:55 GMT -5
I see, the plain text file also seems like an option too, I remembered SnapMap's rawmap archives, which are a way to share maps to others directly and bypass the game's DRM. It would be even more troublesome for Bethesda's monetization plan if something similar to that got adopted too. If it was like a folder with a text file and assets in subfolders people could for example, take one enemy, remove his sprites and place other sprites they got from Realms667, nowadays it's possible to do it too, but it requires opening it an editor and assembling a new wad.
I don't think talking about Freedoom is derailing, since they are now focused on making an id24res.wad replacement. The Freedoom wads actually have a lot more content inside of them other than the equivalents of Doom content, it's just not used by anyone. A few of the Freedoom forks had plans of ZDoom versions with more content and features inside, but as I said most were disencouraged by people related to the main project. Only copy whatever id is doing but keep it legally distinct and distant.
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Post by thelokk on Aug 16, 2024 2:47:29 GMT -5
Wow. Yeah. I wonder what the report at the next Quakecon will be.. grats on one year of Doom + Doom 2 and oh btw it caused a lot of peoples' fun to be ruined (but at least it was successful for us)! It's business we're talking about. Next year's report will make no mention of this fiasco, obviously. Lucky for Bethesda, it can count on a score of high profile people who have based their whole identity around Doom (I don't think I need to provide names), and will therefore always feed the machine no matter what. |
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Lobo
Doomer
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Post by Lobo on Aug 16, 2024 3:09:52 GMT -5
Although it's called Freedoom, everytime someone has suggested forking it there were members of the Freedoom Discord attacking and disencouraging them. But as it's licensed in CC and BSP they can't reallly do anything pratical to stop it. You make this sound sinister and nefarious but honestly I can their point of view: -They have spent years trying to gather enough resources to replace every asset in the game. Scrounging, begging, trying to get people to contribute. Now imagine a fork appears and a big influx of new assets are added to the fork. Wouldnt it be annoying to see the effort split and the base semi-abandoned, instead of just chipping in and helping the original? That's how I see it anyway. |
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Post by ketmar on Aug 16, 2024 6:59:27 GMT -5
besides, the main goal of Freed∞m was always "create free replacements of the original iwads". that's why "only copy" rule. and yeah, they are resistant to forking, because FD is meant to be used exactly as the original iwads are: build custom pwads on top of it, not fork and extend.
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Post by camper on Aug 16, 2024 7:10:35 GMT -5
In theory, you could just go beyond that and not even require the WAD file format at all, which would make it a lot easier to reason about things like load order, etc. There is nothing stopping, for instance, individual UDMF maps from being stored as separate plaintext files in the /maps directory, and nodes stored as either separate files or encoded into the UDMF file itself. That's right, now maps still need to be packed into wad even inside pk3, although it seems redundant if there is a simple UDMF text file. But you also need item (things) tables and texture tables. If I understand correctly, all ports have the structure and composition of these tables for each game (Doom, Doom II, Heretic ... etc) already inside the engine. For new games, you can create your own tables or expand on the original games. vwad. k8v has vwads. k8v has a free C library to read and write vwads. all go for vwads! ;-) i even worked on loading maps from subdirectories, without a supplement wad file. don't remember if i finished it, though. p.s.: k8v using vwads even to store saves. Ketmar, vwad is very revolutionary for me personally. I am not against it, I am for many experimental things to have a reserve for the future. But I have just figured out pk3 and wad and it is difficult for me to start working with a new format while I have questions and misunderstandings in the old formats. Personally, I would stick to pk3 or another format in a regular archive and an established structure of folders and files. I hope you understand me. |
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Post by ketmar on Aug 16, 2024 7:17:47 GMT -5
vwad is using exactly the same directory structure as pk3. i am too lazy to introduce breaking changes to that. acutally, i have "pk3tovwad" tool, which i am using to repack all new downloads (for fun, and to test vwad code even more).
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manoc
Registered just to make one post
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Post by manoc on Aug 16, 2024 8:51:41 GMT -5
Would you believe that compromising post which Shepardus has linked here, was in fact written by esselfortium and not GooberMan? It's no longer there and I didn't save it, too bad for him. |
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40oz
diRTbAg
Posts: 6,105
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Post by 40oz on Aug 16, 2024 11:45:34 GMT -5
manoc I thought i was crazy too. I was left guessing that was there was a deleted dsda-dev post somewhere that leaked incriminating information or something. I saw a bunch of posts going after dsda-dev's character. I did not see this returned. I'm assuming that dsda-dev's posts are all there and unmodified, but to me he was pretty articulate and often clarifying that he has issues with the intent behind these decisions and not specifically with or because of the people involved.
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40oz
diRTbAg
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Post by 40oz on Aug 16, 2024 11:51:42 GMT -5
"If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything." -Mark Twain
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2024 12:09:44 GMT -5
"I definitely didn't do it, but I AM the sort of person who would possibly do it and forget that I did it so I had to pause."
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40oz
diRTbAg
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Post by 40oz on Aug 16, 2024 12:18:22 GMT -5
@dasho exactly, just fucken say that.
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40oz
diRTbAg
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Post by 40oz on Aug 16, 2024 16:48:36 GMT -5
Very optimistic line of thinking from Gez. "We should all embrace this so when everyone inevitably hates it, we can just all quit."
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Post by camper on Aug 16, 2024 17:05:28 GMT -5
But don't make Doom mods. They own Doom. Even if you make an Eternity or GZDoom mod just to make sure it can't be played on their port, it'll still be a Doom mod that requires owning Doom and that'll be free publicity for the Doom game. If you want to thwart Bethesda, if you want to widen the gap, don't make Doom mods, don't stream Doom mods, don't write about Doom mods. They'll go away once the game stops being popular. Ok, I want to make a multiplayer game in the stalker setting in the doom port 8))) |
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40oz
diRTbAg
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Post by 40oz on Aug 16, 2024 17:38:24 GMT -5
since gez has been repeatedly on the positive side of id24's reception, im ready to see someone who also supports id24 dispute this. The longer his post goes unchallenged i think speaks to the intended goal.  |
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Post by ketmar on Aug 16, 2024 19:46:46 GMT -5
it's sad to watch this disaster, tbh. especially sad to see how people i respected lost that respect in a blink of an eye. dpJudas, GooberMan, Gez — what's wrong with you, guys? at least Graf is still hard as rock, thank gods! ;-)
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Post by Moonsweeper on Aug 16, 2024 20:45:17 GMT -5
Although it's called Freedoom, everytime someone has suggested forking it there were members of the Freedoom Discord attacking and disencouraging them. But as it's licensed in CC and BSP they can't reallly do anything pratical to stop it. You make this sound sinister and nefarious but honestly I can their point of view: -They have spent years trying to gather enough resources to replace every asset in the game. Scrounging, begging, trying to get people to contribute. Now imagine a fork appears and a big influx of new assets are added to the fork. Wouldnt it be annoying to see the effort split and the base semi-abandoned, instead of just chipping in and helping the original? That's how I see it anyway. Ok, you may be right, being more realistic the developers might just have the wish to keep being the underdogs. They don't want the Freedoom project to be more popular than it currently is, but nowadays it is more or less complete, they plan on improving the sprites but nothing else, I don't think they will ever replace the maps with better ones. But it also means that forking it wouldn't hurt the project, if you make any libre assets the main Freedoom project could even incorporate them without even asking for your permission. besides, the main goal of Freed∞m was always "create free replacements of the original iwads". that's why "only copy" rule. and yeah, they are resistant to forking, because FD is meant to be used exactly as the original iwads are: build custom pwads on top of it, not fork and extend. Not always, it was originally a Boom project, there also are projects like FreeDM and other non-Doom Engine games which aren't meant to replace anything Doom. Nowadays people only use Freedoom for standalone TCs that replace all assets, because they don't want to show the originals. It doesn't replace Doom if it's way uglier than it. |
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Post by ketmar on Aug 16, 2024 20:51:39 GMT -5
It doesn't replace Doom if it's way uglier than it. i tried to play FD with original monsters… and it's kinda ok. but then, i guess any vanilla monster replacement gfx will look out-of-place, because we all know how it "should" look like. except the worms: i love demon worms! ;-) |
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Post by Bob Page on Aug 16, 2024 22:41:39 GMT -5
...in the hypothetical situation that DW becomes completely unusable for any reason, people that map for simpler standards like Vanilla and Boom would have nowhere to go. ZD and ModDB are very straightfoward in showing that they focus on mods for the advanced engines, all vanilla-like mapsets get little to no interactions. And every attempt of a DW alternative failed miserably... Did I just imagine out of thin fucking air the 67 (soon to be 68) really impressive, really well-made, and really fun to play Doomer Boards Projects? I mean at this point isn't Doomer Boards, objectively speaking, a successful DW alternative? You mean to tell me that Vanilla and Boom mappers couldn't just go here? I think I must have misunderstood his post. |
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Post by Moonsweeper on Aug 16, 2024 22:57:18 GMT -5
A lot of people don't like Doomer Boards because of the excessive amount of swearing, I guess. Besides, mentioning Doomer Boards in DW is a way to get the admins to put you on a watchlist, maybe he didn't mention it for that reason.
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Post by Bob Page on Aug 16, 2024 23:02:41 GMT -5
A lot of people don't like Doomer Boards because of the excessive amount of swearing, I guess. Besides, mentioning Doomer Boards in DW is a way to get the admins to put you on a watchlist, maybe he didn't mention it for that reason. That's a good point. I also really do not agree with the statement that the new assets (monsters, weapons, etc.) are now "canon". Forgive my ignorance, but did John Carmack, Adrian Carmack, John Romero, and Tom Hall all recently come out and bless those new monsters/weapons with the "canon" designation? Weren't those new monsters and weapons based on early unused designs? I'm just dumb enough to think that if the original developers wanted them to be "canon", they would've made them canon, i.e. they would've included them in the game. Just my two cents though. |
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Post by ketmar on Aug 16, 2024 23:28:39 GMT -5
somebody, please, tell kraflab that we have a nazi hat and swastica-shaped cookies for him! just to watch how DW people would try to talk about DSDA without mentioning DB. i want to see it!
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StodgyAyatollah
Doomer
I'm not here. You're just imagining things.
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Post by StodgyAyatollah on Aug 17, 2024 0:42:17 GMT -5
I don't see that happening but I'll be honest that it would be nice to see a bit of the speedrunner niche present here.
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40oz
diRTbAg
Posts: 6,105
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Post by 40oz on Aug 17, 2024 2:32:00 GMT -5
lol if kraflab decides to migrate here I'll rename this place to DSDAoomer Boards
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Post by thelokk on Aug 17, 2024 3:25:19 GMT -5
Seemingly kraflab just had their real name removed from the wiki. Strange, huh? Guess it goes to show how safe in the community one feels once they're on DW mods' watchlist.
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