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Post by righttooffend on May 7, 2024 21:05:02 GMT -5
I've been troubled by events at Doomworld I experienced a while back, which I'm sure is a rather familiar story on this board. I got into a heated discussion once, over a topic that I feel matters to me within gaming. My guiding compass has always been that I love, open, honest discussions, even if they can be controversial, but that it's perfectly okay to have completely contradictory positions and opinions to me. If we disagree, it shouldn't have to reflect on people's character personally. I don't often make a habit of starting flame wars, and in fact in this particular instance I had no idea one would even erupt. I made an off-hand comment to somebody else, and a third party took great personal offense to that smaller remark in a larger post. He attacked my character. Giving him the benefit of the doubt, I tried to explain or scaffold my position with some more context, but it became increasingly clear he wasn't interested in a discussion or a clarification, but a contrition. Anything less than an apology for daring to voice a critical, negative opinion would not be acceptable to him. To that, I naturally replied, sorry, but you're not getting one. If I have to self-censor every thought I ever had out of fear that anybody anywhere might possible take great offense to that, I or anybody else couldn't ever really say anything and the world would totally be sterile. Ironically, that was the last post I made before getting temporarily banned by a mod, on the outlandish grounds of "anti-social behavior."
I was quite angry at that, as I had never received even a warning, and I've had no troubles on the site in the past. At some point after the ban expired, out of morbid curiosity, I returned to the site. I thought, perhaps I had come across as meaner or overly argumentative than I meant to. Perhaps I was in error and too caught up in the spirit of the moment to recognize it. Literally the very first topic I see, locked, is about some Youtuber whining over a rude Youtube comment (Gasp, who could've ever guessed those exist?) In actuality, the comment in question hardly seemed all that rude. It was a little elitist for sure, ("You're playing the game wrong!") but ultimately rather harmless. The sort of thing just best ignored and moved on from. Yet, on Doomworld there were a chorus of voices, some even familiar names of people I've liked and interacted with positively in the past, who absolutely piled on this no-name Youtube commenter. The original accusation was that this fellow was being "too mean," but apparently the vitriolic mob replying seemed to lack the self-awareness that they were being far, far meaner in response. Disagreements over opinions were being met with a long laundry list of childish, personal attacks.
There was no better confirmation that yea, "It's not me, it's you."
All that said, I don't hate Doomworld, not at all. I still feel it has great value, particularly when it comes to getting useful information on mapping, or help with technical details. It's a great place to discover new maps and mods. Aesthetically, it's a very nice looking website. The Cacowards are important. From that perspective it remains a great resource.
But the majority of discussions are totally inane, toothless, tepid, and boring, because anything else could be considered offensive and worthy of censorship. The worst kind of censorship is not the bans, it's self-censorship. It's the feeling that I have to think twice about everything I might want to express, no matter how seemingly benign, because I can't know what somebody might take the wrong way.
And it sucks, because for a while, Doom, which is one of, if not my all time favorite game, was kind of ruined for me. Video games used to be a source of relief from other people, from stress, and now they're becoming the source of stress and aggravation. I had to avoid playing the game because it would revive ugly memories of this distasteful experience. I had a certain faith and trust in the strength of this community, and it was shattered that day. Even when I could go back, I don't really ever want to now.
I need to get this off my chest, because that loss of faith or innocence bothers me far more than whatever the initial argument was over. I didn't really want to be here, on DoomerBoards. I don't want to be a pariah or an outcast. And like I said earlier, I still love the great resources DoomWorld offers. It remains the most popular fan site, and with some good reason.
But I also want an outlet that respects the rights of its users, where I can feel liberated to freely speak my mind (within reason of course) and not have to worry about mob justice.
As a side note, I only discovered "Zeppelin Armada" by joining this site, so in a way there is a sort of blessing in this whole affair. It's rather unfortunate and petty that such an impressive mod is to be ignored and unappreciated on Doomworld over insider politics or drama.
If you were kind enough to read my story all the way through, I thank you for your time. I love this awesome game too much to quit. They can't and they won't take it away from me. Looks like I've found a new home for my Dooming from now on. Cheers.
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Post by deathevokation on May 8, 2024 10:57:24 GMT -5
Welcome, all I can say is I hope you enjoy Doom again, in your own way.. maybe you should make new memories to wash away the unpleasant ones. That said I have a similar thing with albums where I attach bad memories to the album I was listening to when something life changingly bad happened to me and I still can't get over it, heh.
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Post by TimeOfDeath on May 8, 2024 16:35:13 GMT -5
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StodgyAyatollah
Doomer
I'm not here. You're just imagining things.
Posts: 485
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Post by StodgyAyatollah on May 8, 2024 17:45:20 GMT -5
Guy must really love mouselook to sperg out that bad over your opinion TimeOfDeath but he did link the UNs universal deceleration of human rights so that makes him winner. And Welcome to the more enjoyable side of the doom community™ op. Don't let shitty people ruin something you enjoy. They don't have a monopoly on Doom, they just like to pretend they do.
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NuMetalManiak
Doomer
Elite Rustler (not related to Puga)
Posts: 104
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Post by NuMetalManiak on May 8, 2024 17:54:56 GMT -5
Forum - a place, meeting, or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged. Or: a website or web page where users can post comments about a particular issue or topic and reply to other users' postings.
We're in the age of "everyone wants to be their own policeman everywhere possible" which actually makes the above definitions of a forum nearly impossible nowadays. If something goes south, steer FAR AWAY FROM IT because some people revel in bringing others down and will attack the closest one they can find.
Big edit: A good reason why a lot of discussions on the forum are toothless, boring, and such is because most everything has been covered before in some form or fashion. At least when it comes to Doom General subforum. There's little in terms of uniqueness as a result, and a general consensus is that repeated topics or posts is frowned upon. It's baffling that some take serious offense to repeats though, because, inevitably, someone's going to post a thread without searching the topic in question. The best responses to those are the ones that politely direct the OP to that already done topic, but you often don't see politeness these days anymore (which might just be how internet culture generally is). For good stuff on DW, you can definitely check out the other subforums since there's always something new or updated.
btw "anti-social behavior" is a funny paradox when you consider that gamers are BY NATURE anti-social.
Worth mentioning that a ton of popular sites always have far more regulation than underground sites. And with more regulation comes more fortification.
btw tangents are ALWAYS FUN TO READ, no matter how long they can be.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2024 19:44:05 GMT -5
i played anathema 2 without mouselook like i always do with every non gzdoom wad. shit was cash. in fact i might even believe those plebs are playing the game wr*ng
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xeepeep
Banned
Forever
Posts: 2,338
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Post by xeepeep on May 9, 2024 2:07:32 GMT -5
Based
Same guy:Based.
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Post by hex11 on May 10, 2024 14:34:16 GMT -5
Facebook? Why don't you face book and study. ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png)
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xeepeep
Banned
Forever
Posts: 2,338
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Post by xeepeep on May 10, 2024 15:07:10 GMT -5
Why don't you face my COCK and SUCK IT?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2024 17:43:14 GMT -5
n0 dats gay mang
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Post by hex11 on May 10, 2024 18:57:44 GMT -5
Sorry for any confusion, I meant that for OP. Doomworld? Why don't you Doom world and map. ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png)
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Post by Tangra on Jul 1, 2024 11:51:02 GMT -5
Big edit: A good reason why a lot of discussions on the forum are toothless, boring, and such is because most everything has been covered before in some form or fashion. At least when it comes to Doom General subforum. Not that i fully disagree with this, there's definitely some truth to it, but i think the bigger part of the problem is much simpler... The topics and discussions of Doomworld are toothless because of the people who run the site, which are also, toothless, fragile, snowflakes, and that reflects on the whole climate of the forum. The only positive side of Doomworld is the wad sharing and tutorials, but it is no longer a forum like you've pointed out. It is not a place of genuine discussion and challenging of opinions. Definitely not when threads and users with retarded gimmicks like the following are left to thrive without moderation, while anything interesting, constructive and mature will get locked away or deleted if the mod cucks disagree with it, which is a personal offense to them. www.doomworld.com/forum/topic/144428-someshould-make-doom-1-long-trek-to-phobos/Which reminds me about some Doomworld kid that had a "revelation" last summer and thought for a fact that he finally understood THE REAL arc of Doomguy in the original 1993 game... that he's some messiah that wasn't transformed into a zombie because he has a good heart, and he slapped his commander back in the day, when he ordered him to shoot at civilians. Oh, really? I thought, he wasn't turned into zombie, because he was left to guard the ship and didn't die. Of course, i made a joke by posting the "Stories in games is like stories in porn" Carmack meme, and oh boy, did i got a bunch of people butthurt over this harmless joke. Some snowflake accused me of "ruining the kid's enjoyment of Doom", and of course the mod cucks didn't like it, even though this little joke had a good point - that id Software didn't give too shits about the story or the main character's arc of their game, because if they did, Tom Hall wouldn't have jumped ships. Anyway, at the time i still gave a shit, so i had to elaborate and refrain, because the ban was cooking. And even after that, i could tell i was never going to get on their good side again. But forget about that, how about the shitty atmosphere created by biased behavior and favoritism? Because, you see, the rules don't apply to everyone there. Some people are allowed to insult and to be condescending to others, to use snarky sarcastic remarks that will get anyone else banned faster than a blink, especially if directed at a moderator or their friends. Criticism of overrated popular wads (which lets face it, more than 50% of the cacoward winners are overrated) is not allowed, and if you decide to criticize the awards themselves for being an unfair, biased, self-pandering abomination, no matter how diplomatic your approach is, you can just pack your bags, no need to wait for the notification. So, yeah... i think these problems have a little more impact on the toothless and boring nature of Doomworld.
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40oz
diRTbAg
Posts: 5,937
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Post by 40oz on Jul 3, 2024 10:43:51 GMT -5
The topics and discussions of Doomworld are toothless because of the people who run the site Last week you've made this same critique for this forum too. Are you just looking to be led by someone? You assign a lot of responsibility to forum moderators for a supposed "atmosphere," but a community is really only as good as the people that participate in it. I don't control yours or anyone's thoughts. There's barely even any consequences for what you post here. So why don't you just treat others on the forum as if you already have the "atmosphere" you want?
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Kontra
You're trying to say you like DOS better than me, right?
Fight me on MTG Arena, username: Death Wish#57062
Posts: 1,219
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Post by Kontra on Jul 3, 2024 12:21:55 GMT -5
I find this is more of a broader issue with modern Western society as a whole.
You will see this play out in similar patterns in many area of public engagement, and institutions.
We can go all the way back to the 2008 financial crisis, when Wall Street and the Democrats basically became aligned. Obama tried to regulate them, but Wall st. responded with calculated-failure of the markets. Eventually, they struck a compromise quietly behind closed doors. For example:
These are the origins of Woke Capitalism, which is the real driver of the attitudes and social norms of our time. Wall St. still gets to be unfettered by substantial regulations, and the Democrats have their ideology endorsed by billionaires and corporations. These are what created the conditions of which we live in, where leftists feel emboldened to be ruthless, and persecute their "enemies" with no real social and (even sometimes legal) repercussions.
However, we are now seeing a real crisis of faith among the left, regarding the current political situation. It may all come crashing down.
Will a new post-woke society filter all the way down to the Doom-community? If so, Doomer Boards has been ahead of the curve for the past 9 years.
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Kontra
You're trying to say you like DOS better than me, right?
Fight me on MTG Arena, username: Death Wish#57062
Posts: 1,219
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Post by Kontra on Jul 3, 2024 12:52:48 GMT -5
I find this is more of a broader issue with modern Western society as a whole. You will see this play out in similar patterns in many area of public engagement, and institutions. We can go all the way back to the 2008 financial crisis, when Wall Street and the Democrats basically became aligned. Obama tried to regulate them, but Wall st. responded with calculated-failure of the markets. Eventually, they struck a compromise quietly behind closed doors. For example: These are the origins of Woke Capitalism, which is the real driver of the attitudes and social norms of our time. Wall St. still gets to be unfettered by substantial regulations, and the Democrats have their ideology endorsed by billionaires and corporations. These are what created the conditions of which we live in, where leftists feel emboldened to be ruthless, and persecute their "enemies" with no real social and (even sometimes legal) repercussions. However, we are now seeing a real crisis of faith among the left, regarding the current political situation. It may all come crashing down. Will a new post-woke society filter all the way down to the Doom-community? If so, Doomer Boards has been ahead of the curve for the past 9 years. TLDR; Broader issue with modern Western society. - Similar patterns in public engagement and institutions. Historical context: - 2008 financial crisis aligned Wall Street and Democrats. - Obama tried to regulate Wall Street; led to a compromise. - BlackRock's involvement with the U.S. government post-crisis. - Larry Fink's connections with Obama administration and aspirations for Clinton's Treasury Secretary. Emergence of "Woke Capitalism": - Wall Street remains minimally regulated. - Democrats gain ideological support from billionaires and corporations. - Leftists feel emboldened to act ruthlessly without repercussions. Current political situation: - Crisis of faith among the left. - Potential collapse of the current political climate. Impact on the Doom community: - Possibility of a post-woke society influencing the Doom community. - Doomer Boards has been ahead of the curve for 9 years.
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Post by Tangra on Jul 3, 2024 15:48:07 GMT -5
The topics and discussions of Doomworld are toothless because of the people who run the site Last week you've made this same critique for this forum too. Are you just looking to be led by someone? You assign a lot of responsibility to forum moderators for a supposed "atmosphere," but a community is really only as good as the people that participate in it. I don't control yours or anyone's thoughts. There's barely even any consequences for what you post here. So why don't you just treat others on the forum as if you already have the "atmosphere" you want? Oh did i? I don't remember saying Doomer Boards is toothless as a result of moderators silencing criticism directed towards them or their buddies, or punishing opinions and topics they disagree with or dislike. Yes, i've criticized you, but for different reasons, so you might want to have a second read to what i've posted in recent weeks. I don't criticize you because i dislike you, quite the opposite. I like you, but you're not the same. Now you act like a Doomworld puppet and take a side to defend them in arguments that you shouldn't be a part of, but you do it for reasons i can't explain... unless you enjoy pissing off your forum. It's disappointing because i can quote you on multiple occasions, sharing the same common criticism against the DW moderation and "atmosphere", but now you're sucking them off hard. You just gave a fresh example, someone (me in this case) is disagreeing with how DW is moderated, and here you are again, white knighting for them like a tool. What happened to you?
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40oz
diRTbAg
Posts: 5,937
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Post by 40oz on Jul 3, 2024 18:02:46 GMT -5
Youre dodging my question. I'll answer yours if you answer mine. You mentioned it here, doomer.boards.net/post/60690and previously here. doomer.boards.net/post/59614I participate on this forum as if I'm a member here. I almost never use my moderator powers. As forum members, you and i are really not that different. The stuff I post on this forum are my own opinions. They could just as easily be posted by anyone if they had the same thoughts. I don't tell you what you can and can't say. I'm pointing this out because on repeated occasions, you've pointed to the cause of yours and other's frustrations with the doom community to its leaders. You're failing to look inward about how if you played Doom and wanted to share your experience with it with other players, so you found a community of other Doom fans, you probably wouldn't be having a great time if the cold and bitter attitude you've been bringing to the doom community were reflected back at you tenfold.
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Post by Tangra on Jul 3, 2024 19:31:57 GMT -5
And what is your question? "What do i want?" Is that it? Nothing more than what a normal, friendly, helpful forum, centered around a hoby is supposed to be. Freedom of speech is a good thing, but a forum without rules will always be a shitposting hell. I don't think DB needs a huge correction or anything, i believe most people here are smart and helpful, you just have to eliminate the childish behaviour shown by a few. Not saying you should ban people, i'm saying, you should give them a chance to start acting like adults and if they don't, then figure a way to "convince" them. I see you're attempting to make it better, but only time will tell if you're on the right track. In my opinion, it's not going to happen if you don't moderate... like give a suspension here and there, or delete a shitpost from time to time. Looking at the statistics shared in Joe's recent thread, you have plenty of new users registering every year, but the problem is, no one is sticking around to post and contribute to the forum. Ask yourself why, and how you can turn this around.
As for my "bitter attitude", you won't see much of it if Doomworld wasn't so often discussed here. Obviously i dislike them, but i would prefer if they weren't such a central topic around here. I see them being discussed daily, and i get an itch to say something from time to time. And of course, i can't say anything positive about them, so it comes across as bitter. Actually, most of my problems with Doomworld have to do with shitposting as well. Except on Doomworld, it's a different kind of shitposting. While there you don't have the freedom to criticize the bs behaviour and favoritism of the mods, or the overrated wads that they promote, you are 100% free to be a dumbass 24/7 and ruin the forum for the adult Doom fanbase. Kids and newbies with 0% forum etiquette are allowed to spam and turn the site into an unbearable mess. No mod bothers to put them on the right track and explain things to them, and that is annoying as hell. I got banned for telling that Grungo kid to tone down the crappy gimmick and useless spam. And i will be the first to admit that it wasn't my place to tell him that, but i was quite tired of opening the forum everyday after work, to some absolute cringe that i wouldn't have found entertaining when i was 10 years old. Probably the real reason for the ban was because a few months earlier i said the Cacowards are for ass kissers, when Zeppeling Armada got shoved by the same people you're now defending.
I hope this answers your queastions about what i want from a forum. Of course, it's not a matter of what i want, it's a matter of what is right for this forum, in order to grow and be better than it is now. Because if you're happy to tread in the same place or go backwards, then i'm sorry, but you will continue to be criticized.
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40oz
diRTbAg
Posts: 5,937
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Post by 40oz on Jul 4, 2024 6:11:04 GMT -5
And what is your question? Questions have question marks at the end of them. Theres barely any consequences for what you post here. So why don't you just treat others on the forum as if you already have the "atmosphere" you want?
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Post by Tangra on Jul 4, 2024 8:27:12 GMT -5
And what is your question? Questions have question marks at the end of them. Theres barely any consequences for what you post here. So why don't you just treat others on the forum as if you already have the "atmosphere" you want? Indeed, but dumb questions like this, are sometimes hard to notice. I've already answered more than once everything you want to know about my thoughts on the forums, if you're still going to act blind and falsely claim that i'm dodging anything, then you can just fuck right off.
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40oz
diRTbAg
Posts: 5,937
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Post by 40oz on Jul 4, 2024 10:08:30 GMT -5
Tangra Tell me about it. Reminder, you reopened up this conversation after it was dormant for two months, so its you that is gonna fuck right off if youre already tired of talking about it. Save us both the time spent writing monster paragraphs circling around the issue that avoid addressing it directly and succintly. Sounds like your thoughts about whats good for the doom community kinda suck because youre just shitty to people who talk to you. Theres plenty of non-doom internet communities around, and some of the ones I participate in have rules like no bullying, judgment-free zone, no hating on race, religion, sexual/romantic orientation, or gender.etc. Despite these rules being present, they almost never need to be enforced because the people in said community respect each other by sharing the common interest that brought them there. These communities are also largely unmoderated. I met my partner in a non-doom community. She already liked adjacent horror themes and video games before I knew her. When i introduced her to Doom and she saw the maps i and other DBP members create, she was 110% in. I owe her a lot of credit for breathing new life into a lot of my mapping. She encouraged most of my weird map ideas for Auger Zenith. She came up with the idea for Funnelcake apparitions and hand-drew textures for it. She pointed me towards a lot of things that inspired Zeppelin Armada. I probably wouldnt have attempted all the dialogue and RPG elements in it without her support. We watch doom playthrough videos and streams together sometimes, and she will point me to movie trailers, video game settings and art pieces and say "you should make a dbp theme like this!!" As we drive in the car she will point at a a decrepit old brick building, or a cloudy colorful sunset and be like "wouldn't that make a cool texture in doom?" I often have more optimistic conversations about Doom with her than i do with most people in the doom community. She would love to be a part of a doom community, but since she is pansexual, nonbinary, mixed race, and on the autism spectrum, and shes seen the way people across the doom community treat people like her. The only times she can really talk about Doom is when its with me. Dont point me to other gender nonconforming, non straight women in the Doom community. They participate in the Doom community despite the way people, like you, treat them and the people that stand by their side. I know quite a few people in non-doom communities that would probably really like Doom. The doomer boards forum could be rich with young hopeful promising mappers, and hot vampire goth catgirls that would fangirl over our maps. But the resentful conservative attitudes against progressive, non-traditional ideas, and emerging social trends are a powerful repellent for them. My partner's daughter is also extremely creative. She builds endlessly in Minecraft and Roblox. Shes an amazing idea machine and has infinite energy to follow through on what inspires her. ive played through doom on coop with her a few times and she loves it too. Ive shown her how to make maps in the editor and she loved it up until UDB crashed on her and she lost like 4 hours of progress. She can get pretty emotional sometimes. Its a very conflicting interest for me to bend over backwards to support a forum for people like you who have to be incessantly mean to people around by virtue of being a doom player. Its really depressing to watch a world around me full of potentially awesome doom fans that could create amazing Doom things that will never register here because they know they will have to routinely endure your militant shittiness. It feels insane to be so concious about what Doom communities could be while reading you write novels so completely wrongly about the issues with the Doom community. Its weird to see how blind you are to a community that would completely stagnate and wither away it were completely populated with users that think and speak like you do. Knowing how ive seen you and people like you treat children that dont express themself with the maturity and cynicism of a loser 30 year old man, I would never subject my step daughter to have to deal with someone like you that would have no reservations in telling her to fuck right off not unlike what you did to me just now. I would be positioned to have to make excuses for your behavior about how this is a 'free speech' doom community. The way you need to treat people just doesnt make any sense to anyone outside of it.
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Post by Tangra on Jul 4, 2024 11:31:11 GMT -5
Knowing how ive seen you and people like you treat children that dont express themself with the maturity and cynicism of a loser 30 year old man, I would never subject my step daughter to have to deal with someone like you that would have no reservations in telling her to fuck right off not unlike what you did to me just now. I told you to fuck right off, because you're misrepresenting what i say like we speak different languages, and i'm going to tell you again to fuck right off. It's impossible to have a normal conversation with someone who always twists and turns every word. I'm starting to believe that you might be the one on the spectrum, so i'm going to step back and leave you to your twisted imagination that tells you everyone must be an evil person, because they believe a forum should have some rule and order. Only a twisted mind like yours reads something like "moderators should explain forum etiquette to younger users and give them guidance so they can adapt faster, in order to reduce unnecessary spam and pointless, poorly organized threads" and misinterprets it as "this dude hates kids and tells them to fuck off on a regular basis". Only a dumbass reads "a forum should have rules to reduce pointless shitposting and spam, in order to be more clean and welcoming to casual Doom players, and grow its user base" and then thinks "this is some bitter dude who hates everyone". You're a true genius, 40oz. Now fuck off!
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40oz
diRTbAg
Posts: 5,937
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Post by 40oz on Jul 4, 2024 18:18:39 GMT -5
that victim move of 'youre twisting my words' youve seen on debate podcasts doesnt work on a forum. Your words are perfectly preserved in your posts, unedited.
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Post by helikeschimps on Jul 5, 2024 2:20:32 GMT -5
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Post by thelokk on Jul 5, 2024 4:26:19 GMT -5
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