40oz
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Post by 40oz on Aug 8, 2021 20:09:22 GMT -5
We should find a way to make it fair. Like obviously doomer boards projects are gonna win some, but we have to make it possible for doomworld people to win too. They can't be banned from winning if their maps are actually good. You know what I mean? Like we have to actually judge fairly and impartially regardless of the creator's reputation status. It's gotta be strictly on the merit, competency, and fun factor of the mod. Stuff that interested doomers actually care about.
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dmdr
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Post by dmdr on Aug 8, 2021 20:40:05 GMT -5
just do a people's choice voted-for democratic award like I already advocated for in a post nobody read. That way we can also take into consideration the mentionations in the relevant thread on DW for cross-community relevancy. Doom doesn't need two curated awards
ALSO I don't like Caccolade, it's too much like Cacoward and will come across as an off-brand imitation (another good reason not to do a curated kinda award). I do agree it's an improvement on/more fun to say than Cacoward but we need to differentiate ourselves better
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2021 20:58:30 GMT -5
The BFC9000 The Big Fucking Championship
That's cooler than cacoward imho.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2021 21:23:21 GMT -5
I approve of "The Big Fucking Championship". Yes this blows cacowards out of the water, "Shaolin Soccer"-style.
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matador
You're trying to say you like DOS better than me, right?
I feel asleep.
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Post by matador on Aug 8, 2021 22:42:49 GMT -5
I like the way this thread is going. There's certainly room for improvement and differentiation from the Cacowards and I think a new awards ceremony is a good idea and I've got some ideas. 1. I'm in complete agreement with dmdr that it should be a democratic, popular vote award. As people involved with the Cacowards seem to constantly stress, the Cacoward is NOT a popularity contest and that's a definite void our little award could fill. 2. I think the process needs to be as transparent as possible because "the Doomer Boards have counted the votes and the winners are the Doomer Boards" is going to look highly suspicious, even if it's true. I think we would need to find some way to tally votes and ensure that there's no cheating and to have the votes displayed in a public way.
3. Like dmdr said, this needs to be open to everyone - not just the Doomer Boards community, not just Doomworld... there's a lot of decentralization in the Doom community with people on Youtube, Twitch, zDoom forums, 4chan, moddb, etc... and the award should represent everyone. It should be hosted by us but shouldn't be a Doomer Boards award.
4. Not sure how we could set this up but we should have write ups for the winners that come from the voters and not some self-important Doom critic.
5. Obviously, we need to institute a rule that voters cannot vote for their own projects - both ones they've lead and contributed to. Not quite sure about maps they've playtested or contributed graphics/music to, curious what you guys think.
6. I think we should have our own, separate little forum awards ceremony just for ourselves but not make a big fuss about it. I liked that little 'Best of 2020' thing that JadingTsunami put together.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2021 22:44:41 GMT -5
We should find a way to make it fair. Like obviously doomer boards projects are gonna win some, but we have to make it possible for doomworld people to win too. They can't be banned from winning if their maps are actually good. You know what I mean? Like we have to actually judge fairly and impartially regardless of the creator's reputation status. It's gotta be strictly on the merit, competency, and fun factor of the mod. Stuff that interested doomers actually care about. I agree completely. The best stuff should win regardless of who made it. Being impartial will differentiate us from Doomworld and show that we can be mature adults capable of unbiased behavior. Gotta give credit where credit is due. Many years ago, back when I was still a member of Doomworld forums, I tested some of Grain of Salt's maps, and he or she(not sure of the gender) tested some of mine. We both were able to behave like adults about it, compliment each other's work, and offer constructive criticism, regardless of the fact that I might not agree with that person's politics. And if dew made an incredible map that rivaled Suspended in Dusk, by god I would nominate it for an award. Doesn't matter if I think he's a prick or not, he created something awesome.
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Post by Washing Machine Enthusiasts on Aug 8, 2021 22:57:02 GMT -5
Obviously, we need to institute a rule that voters cannot vote for their own projects - both ones they've lead and contributed to. I don't agree that this is needed provided people can only vote once (which should be a rule anyway). Most mappers would have more than one released project a year, especially with so many collaborative projects around, including 12 DBPs a year, so they would have to choose one; and if a project is mediocre enough to only have its creator voting for it, it won't win anyway.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2021 23:01:35 GMT -5
I think about how we can setup a searchable review system in parallel (without ratings/awards). What I'm talking about, is where users give quality, extensive reviews of the wad they played, so that reading a review might help find a wad that one might like before playing it. And the review index should be geared towards players who have an objective of finding a wad (not a specific wad) that matches their interest.
I think it can be done by assigning tags to reviews. Then searching by tags, relevant reviews pop up.
This system can be designed parallel to awards system. Its cons is that it will be more demanding resource-wise, while the pros is that it is geared towards players and allows to find something subjectively good for someone, regardless of whether it's a champion or not.
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Aug 8, 2021 23:02:16 GMT -5
You know what might be a fun activity, or maybe side activity? Just spitballing here -- what if we voted for wads to be in a top ten category, and then whatever that top ten is becomes the choices for ranked choice voting across categories. New categories every year. We could do fun categories like "Makes best use of the chaingun" "Most likely to cause an aneurysm" "Most romantic place to take a mancubus on a date" and then the categories and results are released on the day of the event.
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matador
You're trying to say you like DOS better than me, right?
I feel asleep.
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Post by matador on Aug 8, 2021 23:34:34 GMT -5
I don't agree that this is needed provided people can only vote once (which should be a rule anyway). Most mappers would have more than one released project a year, especially with so many collaborative projects around, including 12 DBPs a year, so they would have to choose one; and if a project is mediocre enough to only have its creator voting for it, it won't win anyway. I think we should spotlight the top 10 or so highest voted WADs, so my concern with limiting people to one vote is that in the event of a low amount of votes or a really popular release, we might not have enough variety for a top 10. I do think there should be a relatively small vote limit though. You've convinced me that we don't need the rule about not voting for your own projects though - if the votes are public, everyone will know the creator voted for their own project. I think about how we can setup a searchable review system in parallel (without ratings/awards). What I'm talking about, is where users give quality, extensive reviews of the wad they played, so that reading a review might help find a wad that one might like before playing it. And the review index should be geared towards players who have an objective of finding a wad (not a specific wad) that matches their interest. I think it can be done by assigning tags to reviews. Then searching by tags, relevant reviews pop up. This system can be designed parallel to awards system. Its cons is that it will be more demanding resource-wise, while the pros is that it is geared towards players and allows to find something subjectively good for someone, regardless of whether it's a champion or not. This would be a lot of work but it's a good idea. Especially if we had some sort of tool to read WADs that could generate certain metadata, like monster count, map size, etc... You know what might be a fun activity, or maybe side activity? Just spitballing here -- what if we voted for wads to be in a top ten category, and then whatever that top ten is becomes the choices for ranked choice voting across categories. New categories every year. We could do fun categories like "Makes best use of the chaingun" "Most likely to cause an aneurysm" "Most romantic place to take a mancubus on a date" and then the categories and results are released on the day of the event. I kind of like this idea, might make a nice little sidebar to the main awards article/posting.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2021 23:35:22 GMT -5
ALSO I don't like Caccolade, it's too much like Cacoward and will come across as an off-brand imitation I actually agree with this. We want our idea to stand on it's own merits and not appear as a rip-off concept. Perhaps we could use the word "Caccolade" somewhere in the write-up for one of the award presentations along with other cringe-y puns, such as "Here we have collected the most IMPressive projects of 2022, where wad authors have DEMONstrated excellent creativity and hard work..."
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dmdr
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Post by dmdr on Aug 9, 2021 2:31:12 GMT -5
If I was DB el-presidente-for-life I'd run things more or less like this:
It would be called BFC9000; Bob Page would do all the puns; Votes would be tallied per community; each identifiable Doom community (us, DW, ZDoom, /vr/, r/doom maybe (redditors tend to be a bit retarded so I'm snobbish towards them), moddb; not really that interested in the opinions of stream viewers since they're passive consumers and anyone who isn't will be on at least one of the other forums) gets sent a survey using SurveyMonkey or a similar service to generate a top 5 or top 10; Rules would be on the honours system: just vote on one survey and don't vote more than once; Using a weighted system (ie. the top wad in any given communities list might get 10 points, the bottom would get 1) we'd generate an overall best-of list (each wad thereon would be assigned an arbitrary, hopefully humorous category of it's own).
I would do this twice, once for general wads and another for people's favourite DBPs since it's our award and we'll self-promote if we want to.
Special privileges for DB members would include doing the write-ups for the overall best wads (no DBers, you are the self-appointed pompous Doom critics), as well as a chance to contribute to an 'unpopular opinions' section in which we talk about our favourite wads from the year that didn't make it to the best-of list.
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good-old
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18 year old dumb kid.
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Post by good-old on Aug 9, 2021 2:44:23 GMT -5
I think about how we can setup a searchable review system in parallel (without ratings/awards). What I'm talking about, is where users give quality, extensive reviews of the wad they played, so that reading a review might help find a wad that one might like before playing it. And the review index should be geared towards players who have an objective of finding a wad (not a specific wad) that matches their interest. I think it can be done by assigning tags to reviews. Then searching by tags, relevant reviews pop up. This system can be designed parallel to awards system. Its cons is that it will be more demanding resource-wise, while the pros is that it is geared towards players and allows to find something subjectively good for someone, regardless of whether it's a champion or not. It'll also help in ensuring that cacowards aren't the only way a lot of people discover new wads to play, something that has been a problem for a long time and still is. It's necessary because there will always be some(or maybe a lot of) unnoticed good shit that misses the awards because not enough people heard of it/played it, which is why I'm kinda against anything awards. (redditors are retarded so I'm snobbish towards them) FTFY Also @dmslr well DW is not an archive itself, it just has an /idgames ftp mirror. The one at gamers.org is the primary one, I think. Speaking of which, what if this place has an /idgames mirror someday?
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Post by PHILADELPHIAWIFEBEATER on Aug 9, 2021 5:42:53 GMT -5
Does the word "fascist" even mean anything anymore? dont you get tired of asking the same questions
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Post by scubasteve on Aug 10, 2021 19:59:07 GMT -5
we've released a DBP that's so popular and beloved that not winning a Caco will be the most obvious snub in Cacoawards history. In hindsight that was probably Deus Vult. It was the progeny for all of these epic-in-scale slaughter maps that have proliferated the community in the last several years like Sunder and Abandon... I enjoyed Auger:Zenith--cyberpunk is my jam--but I really wish the DBPs would sometimes spend longer than a month. I want to see the themes explored a little more instead of wrapping up and rushing off to start the next month's session. I would have preferred A:Z to be a little shorter and cull some of the weaker maps and give the really strong authors a chance to maybe explore the theme of a cyberpunk map a little more. I get that this runs counter to the purpose of the DBPs, but they most often feel more like a good fast-food burger than a gormet meal. Of all years to worry about snubbing... since 2004 when we started writing these, I have never seen a year packed with more incredible projects. It's possible that A:Z would have won in the past, but it might just not end up being one of the best things of the year after some other heavy-hitters drop like Ashes:Ep2 or even Devilution; it's already vying for space among Heartland, Time Tripper, Lullaby--even the much-maligned-yet-still-impressive BoA:Ep3--It's two-thousand-fucking-twenty-one and Doom modding might be even more popular and competetive than ever. Everythign isn't a conspiracy; it might be that there are just more and better things.
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Post by Endless on Aug 10, 2021 21:08:38 GMT -5
The ultimate powermove would be to give Auger;Zenith a Cacoward and put it on the frontpage
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Aug 10, 2021 21:19:15 GMT -5
its fine, i understand. I was wrong. The project is good and everyone ive seen play it had a blast, enjoyed the gameplay, laughed at the scenery, admired the aesthetic and highly recommends it to their viewers. What it doesnt do is follow the more important criteria like
1. more mappers should have been disallowed to participate in it 2. the rules / project format has to be what i feel like it should be 3. it needs to 'feel' like a gourmet meal
not a conspiracy. just a preference. and thats fine. i think people would like to be informed about wads with criteria about what i know people actually want in a doom wad. so a seperate doom wad awards thing hosted by us seems like a cool idea and id like to move forward with it.
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Post by scubasteve on Aug 10, 2021 21:25:51 GMT -5
Maybe you'll have better luck. We tried voting on awards in 2004 at the start and found that people are generally unreliable; it was far more efficient and provided greater security to just put people in charge who want to write. But that was 17 years ago and the community was shrinking and social media was relegated to IRC and the DWF.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2021 21:33:35 GMT -5
scubasteve, thumbs up for ignoring the drama and not participating in the shit throw. However, (I'm repeating myself here) "incredible" as per jury definition doesn't mean "fun to play", which is why I am personally pushing for accessible elaborate reviews systems, rather than alternative awards. I do admit the awards seem to be the goto to at least sizeable audience however, and that designing parallel championship will benefit decentralization efforts. We've seen "first maps" like Gzdoom map "The Incident" by elend, which I doubt was nominated for cacoward even, well those things last a rather lengthy play session and are even replayable, which is a quality not every cacoward winner has. "Arctic Wolf Revisited" (for Edge sourceport) by ceejay is a thing I actually enjoy, while the first episode of BoA (I take it I played the first) ran into the ground fast for me. I keep thinking that maybe "Arctic Wolf Revisited" could get an expansion that is no longer centered on original levels, but on escalating the challenge by designing the scenes as full-fledged chesspieces. And if "Dynamite Duchess" - which is both incredible AND extremely fun to play - for some reason doesn't get a cacoward, then the political bias behind the DW awards would still be proven and exposed.
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Post by scubasteve on Aug 10, 2021 21:45:58 GMT -5
I played the hell out of Dynamite Dutchess... but it really started to unravel the farther I made it into the project. Hexen switch hunts became the norm and I just gave up after 5-6 hours of play because I simply could not figure out what I was doing and I became increasingly frustrated. There is an incredible experience hidden under the surface, but it needs a lot of polish to clean up the labyrinthine maps--it's just too damn easy to get lost/confused/miss some small item needed to advance. And I won't fuck around; Impie chose to make himself a pariah in the commmunity and took his ball and went home before listening to any criticism of his work. All of this could have been addressed to make Dynamite Dutchess a better experience, but he chose to leave instead.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2021 22:10:55 GMT -5
Impie (aka impiethethird on this forum) is not a pariah. He is a strong-willed person that refused to bow to pressure and didn't betray his ideals. The masses are to be defied or led, not bowed down to. He didn't chose to leave, it is the mod who presented him with a choice of "bow down and change your game" or "we ban you", under which he "choosed" the latter in your Newspeak, by defying the former. Defiance is a trait of strong people. And you made a blunder here, since it is not the community that outed him, just a number of vocal fucks who pretend their voice is the voice of community, the everyperson. Really, I'm getting sick of "the enemy of the people" trope. Or "the pariah of the people", as you've used it. I'm living in a country that uses this trope a lot, and it is quite obvious by now even to ordinary shmucks that when they say "people" they mean themselves: the government. "The people", "the community" are just weasel words power freaks use to conceal their own self-serving nature. Also, you have played and given up - I've actually completed it, and I think Hexen had much harder puzzles. Or Cheogsh 2 for that instance (and I've enjoyed Cheogsh 2, also completed it).
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Post by scubasteve on Aug 10, 2021 22:47:49 GMT -5
Oh please, truly "strong" people can take a critical thrashing in stride and come out on the other side. When I attended an art school, teachers and students were absolutely brutal in their criticism of your work... You sucked it up, took nothing personally, and used their advice to improve your work. Too many people in this world let their pride get in the way.
It's easy to be "strong" and indignant... It takes real balls of steel to be introspective and critical of yourself.
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Post by JadingTsunami on Aug 10, 2021 22:53:20 GMT -5
I do like the idea of a "Doomer's Choice Awards" and (as it's been mentioned here) I tried to do something last year in this thread. A few things I learned as suggestions: - I think the yearly awards need to be linked from the front page of the forum in the header like the DBP archive.
- It's harder than it sounds to get votes. Any plan that relies on large vote totals is likely to struggle.
- In an ideal world, we'd offer some kind of integration with a launcher where new players could choose from any of the DBPs and/or any of the winners for this or previous years. I think this also came up in the coding thread.
In general, I think the purpose of the awards should both be to celebrate high-quality, popular works but also ease player's access to those works. In the end all these awards are just to help answer the question "what are some good things to play?" and anything that helps players reach those things will be, I think, beneficial to the effort.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2021 0:05:08 GMT -5
scubasteve, I enjoyed the story and the gameplay of Dynamite Duchess as is. I don't think your suggestions will result in improvement. You are also not the one to talk about dignity, as you consider "the ban that was not even given after a warning" to be a result of "choice". What kind of choice that is? An authoritively forced action is not a choice. You would think that if I hold a gun to your head then "choosing" to obey my orders to save your life would be dignity. Your criticism is purely subjective. The author doesn't owe you changes, it's a good setting and is probably an upgrade from originally a story fiction that this started as. Yes, it's about lockdown, in fact it is reimagining story as game that can be played, and it makes it a pretty high achievement, a proof that visual novel is not the only way you can convey elaborate story in the game. Hexen-like gameplay is a thing for some people, it's good to exercise brain sometimes. It's not even as hard as hexen quest-wise, and the majority of cutscenes don't deprive player of the ability to move, unlike BoA, for example. Some people would also agree with the political message of the mod, as the lockdown took a toll on their mental health AND the game really represents the state of being locked very well indeed. I mean, the world inside indeed felt like the world I experienced in real-life during the hard phase of lockdown. I've also been fucked by lockdown, because I am ultramarathoner, and need to do a lot of running outside to stay in shape, so I really appreciate the author's message is allied to my side. Your opinion about the political content is just your opinion, I don't consider disagreeing with politics a valid criticism. There is nothing wrong with hunting for items either, it's good to sometimes use brain and not just reflexes. The dopamine reward when you actually solve BY YOUR OWN (if you didn't consult any sort of walkthrough) is very high. The messages to stay at home were so mass-spread anything that everything that is aligned to it has no artistic value. Viber replaced its brand with "StayAtHome" for sometime which really annoyed me. Meanwhile, people who managed to stay in physical shape did so by evading the lockdown, and they are plenty, because in Russia there is a lot of towns that are like villages, with no one to enforce the rules, and a lot of forests to run into. Also, once you are out of school you should be able to realize teachers and students are not always right, and that one value system (cultural paradigm) is not really superior to another. Your insistence that author should have appreciated your criticism and discarded opinion of people who have been positive about the mod has no grounds except in your chosen value system. I'm willing to admit that my definition of strength is not the only one, but yours isn't somehow more correct, contrary to what you seem to be thinking. In regards to introspection and self-criticism, these things are not to be made public if you value to be a rational human. Sun Tzu never recommended to expose the weaknesses one actually has (thus, the results of introspection) in his "Art of War", and I consider it a yardstick of what being smart in a hostile environment is. So people who believe that admitting weaknesses (unless you are bluffing) in public is a sign of real strength are idiots, and should read the classics about warfare. There are things in "Art of War" that still hold today, especially re espionage. I remember that someone in US pointed out that the majority of trators (spies that gone in reverse) did it for money - in fact, everyone except one. This can be found in "Art of War" as it tells that reverse spies are indeed lured by the promise of reward. Hence why I consider it a yardstick, it aged pretty well even with all the technological progress. As smart as you can possibly be, you don't really stand up to Sun Tzu. And the defiance also can be attributed to Sun Tzu, as the legend recounts he(? now this can't be certain, but the legend was written in intro to "Art of War", it might be only in specific translation? I don't have a book close by to look it up) defied the edict of king and executed three of his concubines to get the women to perform a military parade, and succeeded. I like the spirit of that legend.
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Post by sosh on Aug 11, 2021 1:53:50 GMT -5
And I won't fuck around; Impie chose to make himself a pariah in the commmunity and took his ball and went home before listening to any criticism of his work. If "criticism of his work" haven't boiled down to sperging that a fictional kid isn't taking the quarantine and potentially fatal disease as seriously as you and similarly minded individuals and a dog and elevating coronavirus situation into a taboo topic for some reason, then your argument would hold, like, some ground. Right now that gay ass situation feels more like you faggots chased Impie out because he has used a topic you deeply care about but not in a way you would like. Also, scubasteve is it possible to tally up the number of mentions in cacoward nomination thread and present that as "Community Choice" sort of thing on cacoward page? Or do you think it would be reduntant as it most likely would mirror the jury picks?
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