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Post by Doomer Boards on Sept 4, 2023 11:15:07 GMT -5
MtPain27's youtube channel posted a new episode in the Dean of Doom series where he reviews the 1996 megawad Requiem
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Post by Doomer Boards on Sept 4, 2023 11:15:13 GMT -5
The video can be seen here:
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walterc
Doomer
Hell Knight Best Grill
Posts: 356
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Post by walterc on Sept 23, 2023 3:34:31 GMT -5
More Dean of Doom ROAST requiem lol
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Post by wernergoldberg on Sept 23, 2023 3:41:55 GMT -5
honestly i always thought the guy had shit taste, especially when reviewing older wads, i suppose some considerations are fair
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2023 11:24:29 GMT -5
Will never understand why he's held in such high regard as some sort of Doom authority, 90% of the times he has no idea what he's talking about and his taste in Doom is as bland as it gets.
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Post by Killer5 on Sept 23, 2023 13:25:40 GMT -5
Admittingly I haven't watched many of his videos. What is his taste in wads? He liked 10x10 so is he more into modern challenge-ish wads? Are wads like btsx/valiant etc his favorites?
I haven't played requiem in ages so I wouldn't be able to really have an opinion on it.
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CittyKat112
Doomer
Kitty cat one hundred and twelve
Posts: 640
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Post by CittyKat112 on Sept 23, 2023 13:37:48 GMT -5
Admittingly I haven't watched many of his videos. What is his taste in wads? He liked 10x10 so is he more into modern challenge-ish wads? Are wads like btsx/valiant etc his favorites?
I haven't played requiem in ages so I wouldn't be able to really have an opinion on it.
He really likes Valiant, but BTSX got a mixed reception from him as far as I remember.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2023 13:38:59 GMT -5
Admittingly I haven't watched many of his videos. What is his taste in wads? He liked 10x10 so is he more into modern challenge-ish wads? Are wads like btsx/valiant etc his favorites?
I haven't played requiem in ages so I wouldn't be able to really have an opinion on it.
More than specific wads, he has some very specific features he will automatically dock points for, regardless of the wad's aim / context / intention. He's really big into very streamlined, fast paced, modern-ish gameplay oriented, punny wads in the style of Squonkers, Skillsaw, the shorter BTSX maps and similar - which, to me, are some of the least interesting things coming out of contemporary Doom mapping. I could be ok with that, opinions are opinions, but he has the grating habit of coming up with outlandish paradigms to try and give an aura of absolute authority to his tastes without openly admitting - the most infamous being a near obsession with 'respecting the player's time', which usually means providing an on-rails experience that doesn't leave room for detours, exploration for exploration's sake and the need for actually getting good. All of this might have changed, I don't know, I stopped following him after the first three - four videos, save for the Requiem and Equinox one: both are such hilariously poor takes I just had to listen all the way through. The Equinox one in particular is a masterclass in missing the point by applying irrelevant parameters to a work of art that openly ignores such parameters.
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Post by Killer5 on Sept 23, 2023 14:18:24 GMT -5
So I have never played a squonkers map - must be a newer mapper? - might be interesting to look into playing one. If he is more casual then the skillsaw thing makes sense. I am curious if he has played counter-attack.. it is probably my favorite wad to come out of that group of mappers (btsx group).
As far as respecting people's time I am a bit similar now-a-days. However the on-rails thing would drive me crazy because I have abandoned modern games due to how hand holdy they are (colored textures telling me where to go.. npcs giving me hints..). For me it is more lengthy wads where I no longer feel like I am progressing in the map but rather I am just completing an arbitrary number of required fights to get to the exit and keys have lost all meaning. Basically I have no sense of the end being in sight. Maybe he is getting a bit older like me but tbh for myself I think my tastes have just changed. I would be curious what he means by 'respecting people's time' specifically just to satisfy my curiosity.
Meh as long as he has thick skin and can deal with people not agreeing with him, which is par for the course in this community, then more power to him tbh. I don't think he has a 'big head' so to speak because he always starts his videos saying 'disagreeing is part of the fun' (at least from what I have seen). So I have no problem from that perspective.
If the community is alienating him for having an opinion then that is the community's problem. He should just keep doing what he is doing. I mean I had to deal with people who never played a single slaughter wad shitting on slaughter wads for years in this community. So at least this isn't that.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2023 14:41:28 GMT -5
Killer5 Heh I wouldn't say he's particularly ostracized by the community, quite the opposite in fact. Probably the Doomtuber with the most following after decino. Personally, at 41 years old and after 25 years of playing Doom with varying degrees of frequency, it takes a lot to make an impression on me - merely 'pleasant' or 'fun' experiences simply don't grab me. I yearn daily for more stuff like Old Still Life or Confused Constructions to come out, to no avail. If you want to try Squonkers I'd reccomend Vigor - it's the most raw and relatively interesting one, in my opinion.
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Post by Killer5 on Sept 23, 2023 14:47:48 GMT -5
Oh so squonkers is a group of mappers? Because I did play vigor when it was released. Had some fun maps in it.
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Post by thundercunt on Sept 23, 2023 16:00:27 GMT -5
Admittingly I haven't watched many of his videos. What is his taste in wads? He liked 10x10 so is he more into modern challenge-ish wads? Are wads like btsx/valiant etc his favorites?
I haven't played requiem in ages so I wouldn't be able to really have an opinion on it.
He really likes Valiant, but BTSX got a mixed reception from him as far as I remember. I might like this guy since I loved Valiant and hated BTSX and Requiem
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CittyKat112
Doomer
Kitty cat one hundred and twelve
Posts: 640
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Post by CittyKat112 on Sept 23, 2023 16:09:24 GMT -5
He really likes Valiant, but BTSX got a mixed reception from him as far as I remember. I might like this guy since I loved Valiant and hated BTSX and Requiem Didn't play Requiem or BTSX yet, but Valiant is very sex yes yes.
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Post by Killer5 on Sept 23, 2023 17:13:29 GMT -5
Ha just watched his equinox video. Have to thank him for pointing out that map11 midi. I haven't ever wanted to make a map for a midi for a long time - laughed my ass off hearing it in his video.
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Post by wernergoldberg on Sept 23, 2023 19:23:45 GMT -5
yeah he has rather "mainstream" taste, far from an outsider sharing his perspective and more like an official spokesperson for what good well designed wads mean in the <current year>, doesn't mean i hate him or anything. he has his own quirks tho, like unironically liking tnt and giving high grades to the more "adventure mapping" style wads such as lost civilization. or simping for sincity2100, well i suppose shattered dimensions was good. and bprd and doomcute (tm) btsx was one of the first wads i played and i actually liked it a lot, same goes for skillsoy stuff (if anything i'm getting shunned here for admitting this), over time i became a bit more critical of the mapping trends such stuff represents. not saying btsx didn't make sense to make in 2012, or valiant in 2015 (and the "formula" has certainly evolved in its own way, i just don't find it incredibly interesting. it's palatable though, like burger king or something). heartland might be the best skillsoy wad tho, and some maps in btsx2 i find more interesting, the exploration based epics that mtpain and decino hate and called btsx2 "pretentious" for vigor blasted my ass on uv like few modern scythe inspired wads do, so i can see why you guys would like it, it's also not representative of the typical "squonker wad" at all. which are rather streamlined modern experiences, but also within vanilla limitations which is kinda up my alley, not many people doing that. i suppose this mix of retro throwback and streamlined presentation (btsx crew tm) is gonna reek of hipster bullshit no matter what medium it gets applied to, i still unironically liked pagodia tho i do think judging wads such as memento mori or requiem by "pistol starting" and "uv maxing" is missing the point to say the least, outright fukin retarded even, but i suppose the show has to have some consistency. also the maymay about alien vendetta being the best "classic" wad
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Post by Killer5 on Sept 23, 2023 20:00:04 GMT -5
I saw that you said it doesn't make sense so I checked the txt for requiem and didn't find anything about playing continuous or pistol starting. Was pistol starting just not a thing back in the 90s?
Edit: And the requiem txt does mention 'make sure to find all of the secrets' so I guess maxing was encouraged.
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skyr
Doomer
Still looking for the missing chromosomes
Posts: 245
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Post by skyr on Sept 23, 2023 20:05:58 GMT -5
i do think judging wads such as memento mori or requiem by "pistol starting" and "uv maxing" is missing the point to say the least But why? Reading Capellan's comment on the dean of doom doomworld thread www.doomworld.com/forum/topic/117837-the-dean-of-doom-series-companion-thread/?page=30 there is nothing to imply requiem was designed for continuous play. And the "you shouldnt judge this map by how the UV-max is" is bullshit to me. If your map isnt fun to 100%, it isnt 100% fun. If they are parts of your map that isnt fun, just fucking remove them. And I dont even always uv-max maps myself if I dont think its worth my time and still think its a bullshit argument
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Post by Killer5 on Sept 23, 2023 20:10:04 GMT -5
Heh you beat me to the punch skyr. Was just thinking that I didn't see a word resembling 'continuous' in the txt file either. The wad would have to be specifically designed for it to make sense to disregard pistol starting completely.
He doesn't really strike me as someone who would purposefully review a wad which was obviously broken from the outset for pistol starts (outside of an April 1st joke).
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skyr
Doomer
Still looking for the missing chromosomes
Posts: 245
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Post by skyr on Sept 23, 2023 20:20:32 GMT -5
The wad would have to be specifically designed for it to make sense to disregard pistol starting completely. Exactly, and even then you still need to account for pistol starts for when the player dies when he plays with no saves or can only an unplayable save. Or are you just gonna say "fuck the player when he dies at map 23, just pistol 2 cybers to death or start from map 1 again" that wad would be fucking shit.
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Post by wernergoldberg on Sept 23, 2023 20:43:57 GMT -5
wads back then simply weren't "tested for pistol starts" the same way modern wads are tbh, the only proof needed is to play them. playtesting was obviously a thing but i imagine they still thought the player could save anytime throghout the wad, and not obsess about getting 100%, and that would be the average experience, and today the culture is different
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skyr
Doomer
Still looking for the missing chromosomes
Posts: 245
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Post by skyr on Sept 23, 2023 22:24:33 GMT -5
How else would they be playtested then? By giving themselves weapons at the beginning with cheats? That's a shit way of playtesting. I can imagine they playtested it with saves and not going for 100% kills (which still would be weird if they put in the txt that you should go for all secrets, implying to do everything a map has to offer). But regardless of the culture, that is just a recipe for unbalanced maps and should be critised for it. Sure, you can be aware of this and keep it in the back of your mind while playing these 90s wads, to increase your enjoyement of the wads, but the fact that you need to do that to increase your fun of it is a negative point. But a smarter choice to do so nonetheless.
And you wont convince me there wasnt atleast some culture of pistol-starting 100%'ing back in 1997, the same year hell revealed was released, which is a wad made by a speedrunner for speedrunners and that wad also deals with balancing issues for pistol-start. Fucking loser not giving me a ssg in city in the clouds.
That being said tho, I dont have problems with 90s wads (even tho I dont really care for MM1 and 2 and requiem). I understand and accept their shortcoming and its fun to see what people came up with back then. Especially ealry 90s wad, 93/94, when nobody really had an idea how to make maps and there wasnt really a paradigm on how to do it. Its difficult to find art/creations where the people werent influenced by certain ideas or rules (by either using them or countering them) and those early wads are one of the few examples of truly free-form creations, free from the idea of how things should be. Love them.
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Post by wernergoldberg on Sept 23, 2023 22:38:15 GMT -5
yea there's hell revealed proving there was some of that, tho afaik there wasn't really any "doom community" with standard accepted practices, just mailing lists and such. so when you spend most of the video criticizing ammo balance in uv max pistol start in a 90s wad you should probably keep in mind you're doing so from a modern perspective, and maybe not give it a C- cuz it hasn't misri halek in it and it wasn't made by team tnt
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Post by AskYourDrAboutUVFast on Sept 24, 2023 0:39:12 GMT -5
lmao, well at least the thread won't get locked for no reason over here.
a couple points:
He doesn't uv-max the maps, which would require him to get all the secrets. In fact his own rules at the start of the video say he doesn't even go for 100% kills if he doesn't feel like its worth it. So I'm not sure why people are complaining about him trying to uv-max the requiem maps and other old wads?
Somebody posted the DW thread where Capellan responded about pistol starts in requiem, but there were other quotes from him pulled up in that thread as well:
There seems to be this notion that these 90s wads HAVE to be played continuous, but for Requiem that certainly doesn't seem to be the case according to this first hand source, and the complete lack of any mention in the txt or help file about having to play continuous. I was a bit baffled by the cries on DW about how awful this review was because the reviewer stuck to his established guidelines when doing the review. I personally think that the criteria for grading should remain consistent and not be changed so the thing or mapper you like gets the grade you want, but that is just my opinion.
Not sure I've ever seen people call MtPain a "doom authority" lokk, got a source for that or are you just projecting your personal perception onto everybody? At the end of the day he is a critic, and whether you agree with his opinions or not, or hate his "bland taste" in wads (compared to your own superior taste of course), its quite rare to find somebody who will put in the effort to play a map multiple times, form an opinion on the work beyond the superficial, put that into words, and then deliver it in a medium that is entertaining. I think its pretty valuable as a mapper for clear and concise insight into a players mind.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2023 5:38:15 GMT -5
Of course I think my taste is superior, I'm not in the habit of intentionally holding opinions I know to be inferior. What a blunt jab, you can do much better (probably not). As for the authority part, I don't need quotes - a dedicated dw thread, a boatload of followers and five minutes on clippy / sandwege's server will prove my point. Feels like a very personal targeting tbh, either mtpain is your buddy or you're still butthurt over that dbp convo from a while ago. Either way, time to get over it, innit? Also at least ping me or quote me next time you try and call me out, it's basic respect
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Post by wernergoldberg on Sept 24, 2023 6:40:09 GMT -5
if anything in the 90s mandatory secrets and obscure progression were more common, and 100% kills from pistol start no joke, so you're probably gonna need those secrets. you ever tried pistol starting dystopia 3 or something. and yeah i'm sure they "tested" all of those wads from "pistol start," but you know now it's not like the dude trashed my favorite wad (that would be plutonia 2 or something), i'm still surmising he's not gonna make my ideal review of mars war as a certified A++ cult classic, won't extol the virtues of absoldis.wad and likely won't treat even mm2 fairly
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