Registration and the Development forum

The irony of having this conversation on a forum where you have to register to engage with it.

I believe the reason that the mapping subforums are not public is that it would function as a tease to entice any one who lurks these forums with an interest in mapping for it to register. If that person really wanted to map for these projects they would register first or just want to do even more advanced lurking (I noticed a Scuba Steve sign-in earlier this morning so if that's really him then cool).

40oz doesn't seem to be putting forth a clear and concise defense for this decision (there are no word requirements) so I can only guess now that the reason for these responses of his are due to believing the people hounding him on it are merely trying to legitimize the Discord server and is adamant about increasing the solidarity of this forum. 40oz may have accepted that this forum won't grow very much and so he may want any new members that do register to have a bit more in mind than just lurking and really be a member of it. I can understand this inclusivity and I respect it.

The Discord server is NOT an extension of this forum, but is rather an off-shoot of it that functions as "Glen's Vodka Shitpost Society" as dn aptly put it. He's put in a lot of effort to catalog the DBPs (and maybe even listing each foreskin follicle every DBP mapper had when making their map) and all so good for him on having something to be passionate about. He's still a destructive cunt that shouldn't be in charge of anything though so I always found it frustrating how most seem to be okay with that (and I myself left after being fed up with the retardism). Sounds like an analogy for society to me, heh.

I honestly don't think it matters too much if the subforums were open to the public or not to increase population and that signing in isn't a hard task to accomplish if you already frequent these forums. Those complaining about it don't seem to even care about the forum anyway and/or don't map at all (sorry memfis) from the earlier responses. I still think it would be better to have them public though for reasons already stated but I can also see a case for requiring registration.

Actually, it can make sense: the consideration is whether knowing what is in DBP forum thread makes users more likely to register. For example, I actually had to think what to write about DBP rules in my post, since the expectation is this post will be read by those who never registered. They might want to participate, but they might also want to know what the rules are in advance to see whether they will agree to them.

And with neither rules nor encouragement to participate (who knew you can just join DBP anytime? I learned that after I've registered), they might not realize this option. It should be noted, however, that communicating that anyone can participate here is the more important part, it would not follow from a forum being publically readable, for example - one could still assume that anyone could read but only some may/are allowed/expected to join and post in DBP thread.

Another thing is closed subforums say they are "members only", it is not clear whether members means registered users or members of some specific user group. It means the former and will usually be assumed to be the former, but maybe some people accidentally read it as a latter.

It would be also nicer to reduce the heat, cause if you all treat one person like wolf, he will bite back. Humans are social animals, showing group hostility towards someone changes their behaviour for the worse (how much may depend per person, but even if one could fight against it he would still have to do it in first place).

I also believe you are too confident that particular issue of whether some subforum is open or not is the cause for latest DBP struggles with maps. You identified the problem and assumed the cause too fast. Getting people to participate in DBPs is not about whether some subforum is readable without registration, it is about informing them who is eligible for such participation. Contributing still by and large requires to setup an account on the forum - in cases where some other channels were used to contributions, such contributions where missed by me entirely - I only see and am able to give feedback of what goes in the project thread, if it goes elsewhere, I am not even aware of it.

I should add, perhaps, is that those who can't make the maps (whether never tried, or not confident enough to try) may still contribute in different ways, such as playtesting, posting FDAs/streams and other kind of feedback, and the currently ongoing project is experimenting with new roles.

P.S. my post turned out to be a mess, as I've identified multiple directions in which the discussion can be advance, depending on which topic be made primary - the problem of advertising DBP itself, the rules of engagement, and the state of forums with regards to public view. I can anticipate some telling it should be the latter since that's the way they intended it, but if this is done to address any of the other things, then maybe those other things need to be made directly the topic instead.

In short, my view:
A) making DBP subforum readable by guests
B) getting people to participate in DBP through forum thread in DBP subforum
=>
Doing A may positively contribute to B but does not completely solve it. I am neither for not against A, just keep in mind if you want B, you might consider a more direct approach either instead of or in addition to A.

That's not the problem, 40oz, the problem is that you actively have to advertise and tell people to register into the forum, so that they know that the maps are being developed in this forum, when just having openly visible DBP dev threads is going to save all the hassle and seem more welcoming in the long run.

joe-ilya , I actually doubt it saves all the hassle by itself. I only got the idea about participating in DBP from your invitation after I've registered (doomer.boards.net/post/20635/thread - I already posted this link in a different thread, here is a reminder), not from the fact that forum now was readable. One still has to understand that you can be on DBP team without being a longstanding member of some inner circle, a fact which cannot be communicated by technical issues alone.

So advertising is needed and no, personal invitation is not a redundant thing. Now it would be indeed be cool to publicly advertise in addition to personal invitation, so we can get some people who wouldn't be reached by personal contacts. And this, in my opinion, should involve some kind of statement that boosts confidence of people to participate, as pinned thread in some open subforum maybe.

Thanks for the recognition cupcakes

Ah, how convenient that, after 40's shitty, combative response to me in the DBP28 Development thread led me to believe that this discussion wasn't worth having (and certainly not behind the registration wall, where I'd just be part of the problem by posting there), we're out in the open, where forum discussion should be!

My reason for returning to this discussion, despite the bad-faith response, is simple. I've had a logical thought, and wish to express it.

40oz - your goal with the DBPs, as expressed by you (and filtered through my understanding and memory over time), is to drive up membership of this forum. That's the real goal. You want this place to be a viable alternative to Doomworld, and the best way to get there is to make it a viable Doom forum. So the USP of a big mapping thing is a good draw.

Well, congratulations! You succeeded! Within four months, you'd lured in an expanded mapping roster who were pretty into the idea and two months after that you disappeared for quite some time. You had your reasons, I'm sure, but you were so successful, that the DBPs thrived in your absence. The DBP profile grew, we got more mappers and a decent-sized roster of members congregated on a Discord to collaborate more closely, in real-time, with handy filesharing features, plus real-time play back. This, to me, is a continuation of your success. You came back, saw things had moved on from your original vision, and... Well, this is where your mindset doesn't really track, for me. First off, you ran a DBP and went back to the old way of doing things. This, in itself, is fine. You've got your preferences, as do all of the DBP leads, and people mapped. So far, so good. Another successful project.

You also, for some reason, decided to close off the mapping discussion and DBP dev boards. This is the bit that baffles me, and why I'm protesting this more and more so. If your goal is to grow the Boards, and you want to make the DBPs more friendly to new mappers, then you want to make that as easy as possible. Any passer-by, lured, perhaps, by the DBPs, is going to look at this forum and see a ghost town, with some seriously dodgy US politics and whatever the fuck Xeep-Eep and supercupcaketactics are on about. Where's the incitement to register? Your argument, that the key boards are here and on display, telling you to become a member to look inside, only holds so much water, when the alternative could be that those two, higher-quality boards, with active project development and your mapping theory threads are there to read for passers by. They'll see that stuff, rather than (or as well as) the other stuff and maybe think "Ooo, I want me some of that!" Then they register, then they join in.

That, in short, is why I'm lobbying you to make it open and easy to see.


The other issue I'm now taking is that you seem to have taken on a victim mentality here. A bit of a "40oz vs. the world" mindset, if you will. The thing is, you've clustered the people arguing against you here as "the Discord", like we're some homogenous force (whilst having supercupcaketactics, who you have clearly become chummy with over PMs, yapping at your heels like a loyal puppy). Ignoring the fact that joe-ilya isn't on that Discord, and neither is vigilantdoomer. Now, bearing in mind what I've said above, about the very existence of this tight-knit group of keen mappers being mostly down to your popularity-boosting brainchild and the success thereof, why do you think we're all against you? I can certainly tell you why this discussion has gone all shitty, but you're not interested in that. Frankly, you're arguing with your own "base", here. You administer this forum, and there's a fairly vocal contingent that want things a certain way. You alienate us, you end up with an even emptier forum, or a quiet forum where most of us think you're a dick. You disagree with us in a reasonable manner, then that's on us to accept that it's your rules. You agree with us and open the forum back up, it's not exactly an unreasonable request and you've decided to go with the group.

As things stand, your entire manner of response here is hostile, like we're all treating you like shit and you're being unfairly put-upon, bravely fighting us off with your witticisms and total avoidance of just responding to the point. So, frankly, I don't expect a worthwhile response here. I expect you to pick out one or two choice bits and try to make a bon mot to make yourself happy that you've owned that Phobus guy again. Do that, if you like, or you could actually engage with the point here and set the tone to be more constructive. You've got the power here, but I'm a member, and without members, you've got power over an empty forum. If I'm unhappy here, I've got Doomworld and many other Doom communities besides. I don't make a habit of getting banned from places through being thoroughly disagreeable, after all. I'm speaking purely for myself, of course. Half of the other people here don't have my security or freedom to go elsewhere, but it's not like the influx of new users is very high at the moment, is it?

Straight question: Did you just temp-ban gaspe?

No.