dmdr
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Post by dmdr on Jul 6, 2020 7:28:28 GMT -5
alright here's what's up: a while ago peeps were talking about packaging up the older DBPs into a ZDoom-exclusive, episodic set using ZMAPINFO (so DBP01 would be episode one, DBP02 would be episode two, etc.). I wasn't really into that because ZDoom exclusivity for a limit removing mapset seems a little off somehow, but didn't say anything because it isn't a terrible idea and the OG maps would still be available anyway. I am, however, totally into a UMAPINFO compatible version of a DBP01-05 compilation for wider compatibility (hopefully even wider in the future), am willing to work on it entirely by myself if necessary, and have already started planning it out as of tonight. My fantasy version of this would be 100% compatible with Crispy in the event that Fabian wises up and adds support for UMAPINFO, so what follows proceeds under that assumption. From 06 onwards things start to get a bit too ambitious (too many clashing replacement graphics, etc.) so I'm not going to include those, but 01-05 are all pretty vanilla.
Now, my current concern is switches and animated textures/flats, since these are the iwad resources most likely to have been replaced outright (UMAPINFO allows custom sky textures and for the most part the new textures have their own names so I don't think we'll have any issues there). I haven't looked at the switches yet but in terms of animated textures we have: 2 totally free namespaces (BLODGR1-4 and SLADRIP1-3) and 3 clashing textures: DBP03 uses a custom SFALL (less bright than the standard); DBP03 also uses a non-standard DBRAIN (the rest all use the same lavafall texture); and DBP04 uses a non-standard (black) WFALL
our/my options are: use a Boom-style ANIMATED lump, which will allow compatibility with PrB+ and GZD but ruin my future UMAPINFO-capable future Crispy fantasy; or dump one of the textures. Actually I think that the DBP03 lavafall texture is pretty cool and could probably be generalised across the set, but just replacing it with the more standard texture would work too.
For flats it's a little tougher. There's only one totally free range (SWATER1-4) but three custom flats: DBP04 uses a custom (black) FWATER; DBP04 also uses a custom LAVA (from Heretic); and
DBP03 uses a custom SLIME09-12 (to match it's SFALL texture). options: Boom-style ANIMATED lump; or replacing the flats. I'm not sold on the custom LAVA in DBP04 since it doesn't match the LAVFALL texture provided -- the Heretic texture includes a prominent black background which does not match the lavafall texture provided, so this might actually improve visual fidelity! I've also always thought that the IWAD SLIME01-04 and SLIME05-08 textures are a bit samey so they could be merged into one and the extra space provided to DBP03's SLIME and the DBP04 FWATER can be renamed to SWATER instead.
Further: Replacement sprites clashing: easy. Crispy, PrBoom-Plus, and GZDoom all support the Doom Retro DeHackEd extensions and there aren't that many non-standard sprites included anyway, so including a small patch utilising the extended things range, and then doing a find-replace on the maps wouldn't take much effort at all. DBP02 has a custom palette, which changes the light grey range to a very light blue one for a colder feeling. I think just losing this wouldn't hurt much as it isn't an extensive change anyway compared to eg. DBP19s similar but more extensive replacement (I'd be in favour of including eg. Screem4_Pal or JovPal anyway, as the game does look better with a CRT emulating palette. This is my opinion, therefore it's objective fact. Which is also an objective fact btw) DBP02 and 04 have custom sounds. Unfortunately UMAPINFO doesn't support alternate sounds per map or episode so a global replacement would be necessary. DBP02's sounds are pretty cool tbh and are probably generic enough not to clash elsewhere, but I haven't checked yet. Custom intermission graphics and music are completely supported by UMAPINFO so no fidelity loss there. All but 05 use the same title and intermission music anyway. I wouldn't make a Z or, God help us, EMAPINFO but if somebody else wanted too that would be fine.
Anyway share your thoughts! Do you think I'm on to something and you'd be willing to help, are the potential compromises too much and you'd prefer making something similar for ZDoom, or maybe this is utterly pointless and stupid and I'm retarded? Who knows? Not me until you post in this very thread!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2020 7:52:29 GMT -5
I think it’s nuts and kinda autistic. These mapsets exist already and can be played quite easily without having to make a mixtape of sorts. The clash of resources alone will be enough to make a grown man cry. Make something new and let the past be the past.
Also I think you missed the gist of the so called compilation discussion. What was floated, more than once and in a non committal way of offhand discussion, was a best of DBP set, and how with resource clashes it would only be feasible in Z ports through DECORATE usage. Such discussions have always concluded its more trouble than its worth, and quite frankly there’s hardly a dud DBP map out there so play them all. Also it goes against a core DBP principle of PrB+ -cl 2 compat for maximum penetration. Making stuff just to be UMAPINFO compat narrows possible ports even further, again straying from a core principle.
It was a noble cause of yours to take up the sword and shield of UMAPINFO for the last DBP, but it has nothing on simply using dehacked to change some automap names and sticking a credit map in to stop progression into the Doom 2 levels and achieves the widest compatibility possible without making it vanilla. And let’s face it, the main thing you actually did with the UMAPINFO was to rickroll people if they weren’t using the port you wanted them to and think it was clever.
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Jul 6, 2020 8:18:29 GMT -5
glenzinho wrote a pretty blunt version of my thoughts. DBP was an evolutionary process from the beginning. I did try to keep things consistent where I could but I did do some exclusive stuff like the modified pallete, sound replacements, and sprite decorations as early as DBP_02 because I didn't think very far ahead. Across the projects there's a pretty inconsistent way of handling the compilation of resources, even down to the filename naming conventions. None of it was clearly defined from the beginning and I didn't get in anyones way in how they wanted to take on the job.
I think the suggestion of a compilation package sounds like the words of a lazy player that leans back in his recliner demanding extensive convenience whatever the cost. This will remain a ridiculous endeavor that will require maintenance each month, and I think a lot of compromises will have to be made corrupting the integrity of each project, maybe even down to the individual maps in every project.
I realized recently that we don't have an official DBP thread that links to each project individually in the opening post. It might be nice for users to include a zip file containing all the wads in a single package and that we update each month. If we're feeling extra friendly we could maybe design a launcher that will load the resources correctly, but that's out of the scope of skills I have and what I'm willing to provide. It's more than enough work at this stage in our small doom group just to make the maps and manage the projects so let's just leave it at that and not overpromise stuff we won't have the resources to provide in the future.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2020 8:35:30 GMT -5
I like the idea of a UMAPINFO compilation where there aren't resource clashes, and you've clearly given it some thought. I personally think we need to move on from this slavish devotion to cl2 and free up more capabilities to let our creativity shine, rather than forcing more convolution into the seam we've mined so extensively for a couple of years (to mix up some metaphors). I reckon you can do it to prove the power of UMAPINFO, when mixed with a bit of Boom-extended capabilities. Good luck with the compilation effort!
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BIG DICK NIGGA
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Post by BIG DICK NIGGA on Jul 6, 2020 8:41:14 GMT -5
Crispy doom supports ANIMATED/SWITCHES lumps, also MBF sky transfers.
But if I were to do this, I'd just dump everything into ZDoom and remake the dehacked monsters in decorate or whatever.
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Post by joe-ilya on Jul 6, 2020 10:40:33 GMT -5
It's pointless.
Having a simple .ZIP file containing all the DBP WAD files is the best solution, kinda like the Master Levels are officially compiled.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2020 11:42:34 GMT -5
As someone who has brought this up at least two times I support this! It would make for a cool Multiplayer session too. I think it's fine to ditch a clashing resource or two if it all still fits for that sweet & salty Crispy Doom compatibility. Having this be a thing would be REALLY COOL and demonstrates the power of UMAPINFO.... Also wouldn't it be a real megawad then? Heh.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2020 12:36:22 GMT -5
I realized recently that we don't have an official DBP thread that links to each project individually in the opening post. It might be nice for users to include a zip file containing all the wads in a single package and that we update each month. If we're feeling extra friendly we could maybe design a launcher that will load the resources correctly, but that's out of the scope of skills I have and what I'm willing to provide. I think that maybe to group the wads by year might not be terrible idea if someone wants to make a compilation like this, so it will be easier to manage and it won't require to update it every month. I personally think we need to move on from this slavish devotion to cl2 and free up more capabilities to let our creativity shine, rather than forcing more convolution into the seam we've mined so extensively for a couple of years (to mix up some metaphors). I reckon you can do it to prove the power of UMAPINFO, when mixed with a bit of Boom-extended capabilities. Good luck with the compilation effort! It could be nice to see some Boom once in a while but I think that the beauty of LR is that it's also very friendly for the monthly format. |
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Post by joe-ilya on Jul 6, 2020 14:54:04 GMT -5
I think maybe a "Best Of" compilation of 32 maps will be more appealing to people, instead of this gigantic compilation of absolutely everything.
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dmdr
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Post by dmdr on Jul 7, 2020 1:40:22 GMT -5
I think it’s nuts and kinda autistic. Correct. However, I rate the rest of your post as did not read OP/10 -- I know I can be verbose but I do try to structure my writing so the important information crops up early and your main objection is addressed in the second paragraph. 40oz, same for you. This is a project with specific goals and a clearly defined endpoint and if you're going to object it should bear on what I'm actually proposing.
In any case, given the relative lack of actual, non-imaginary clashes and BIG DICK NIGGA's useful information re: Crispy (thanks dude!) it turns out that I don't even need to worry about compromising on the flats etc.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2020 1:47:38 GMT -5
I feel obligated to pitch in and help out so if you need an extra pair of hands to work on this great work then just let me know!
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dmdr
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Post by dmdr on Jul 7, 2020 4:21:14 GMT -5
Thanks Cuppy! I've already completed a preliminary dehacked patch with all the replacement sprites (not error checked yet) and started collating the textures into one big pack; after that it's going to be the extremely boring job of replacing resources with clashing names in the maps themselves. Fortunately these early projects use a pretty consistent naming scheme:
the majority of custom flats have a four digit number from 0001 onwards; and
the majority of custom textures have a DBPx_ mnemonic (x being the DBP number) then a two or three digit number.
If you're willing to do a very boring job I could use the flats replaced in DBPs 02-05 (I've done 01 already) and the textures replaced in DBP05 (40 typo'd the custom textures so they're all DBP4_xx, which clashes majorly with the DBP04 textures, as you can imagine). If you are willing to endure some tedium then the new names for the flats are:
DBP0x_yy, where x is the DBP number and yy is a number matching the old flat name. Thus, the flat 0003 in DBP04 would become DBP04_03, 0004 would become DBP04_04 etc. etc.
The fastest way to do this is to use the 'Replace in Maps' tool in Slade (under Archive > Maintenance > Replace in Maps), but because it works on every map at once you'd have to keep the various DBPs separate. Also it only does things one at a time, you can't define a range and let it rip.
If that wasn't tiresome enough, the textures in DBP05 need to be updated similarly, from DBP4_xx to DBP5_xx. There's 64 of these and I/we should be thankful there aren't more.
Anyway, sorry I can't give you anything fun to do, but that's the nature of the project I suppose (my only real special skill is a resistance to boredom otherwise I would never even have considered doing it tbh).
AFTER THAT comes the fun of checking which switches are non-IWAD standard, giving them new names, getting them into the SWITCHES texture, and replacing them in the maps. That's not for a little while yet though.
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Lobo
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Post by Lobo on Jul 7, 2020 6:20:47 GMT -5
I've done DBP05, but can't upload it at the moment (in work). When I say done, I mean I renamed all DB4_xx to be DB5_xx. I downloaded from here: doomer.boards.net/thread/1391/ti-limit-removing-coffin-curse I hope that's the right version. Haven't checked it too much apart from making sure they show up OK in Slade, and just booting up the first map without actually playing it at all. But seems OK. I'll upload it to somewhere later on and you can check it out if it's OK. EDIT: uploaded here |
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dmdr
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Post by dmdr on Jul 7, 2020 6:27:35 GMT -5
Whoa, thanks Lobo! I assume you'd get a lot of missing texture errors unless you also renamed the entries in the TEXTURE1 lump, but I've got what I hope is now a complete 'resource wad' so I'm happy to resolve any of those problems if they should come up. This saves me a lot of tedious busy work so thanks again! |
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Lobo
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Post by Lobo on Jul 7, 2020 6:48:10 GMT -5
Texture and pnames lump should be good.
If you can give it a once-over, I'd feel more confident about doing another couple.
And just for the record, I don't like this whole idea at all. Good thing about DBPs was that they are pretty much port universal. 😂
BTW, where can I get all the DBPs, latest/final versions?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2020 8:43:59 GMT -5
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Lobo
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Post by Lobo on Jul 7, 2020 10:57:41 GMT -5
That's just what I was looking for. Thanks chief!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2020 11:47:53 GMT -5
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dmdr
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Post by dmdr on Jul 8, 2020 6:19:05 GMT -5
Thanks Lobo and MegaPancakeStrategist, that helped a lot (even if Lobo doesn't approve... but hey, if UMAPINFO gets used enough more programmers will implement it and then any wads made using it will be almost universal again, which is why I've got such a bee in my bonnet about this). I've implemented most of the UMAPINFO now but I really need to eat food and stuff so it won't be done til tomorrow. It looks like I'll have to implement a quick DECORATE too, I was under the impression that GZDoom supported the Doom Retro dehacked extensions but I guess not. Oh well. |
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dmdr
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Post by dmdr on Jul 8, 2020 20:41:46 GMT -5
Well, that was surprisingly easy. Thanks again to Cuppy and Lobo for helping take some of the tedium out of this:
(I called it Glories of the Ancients because I think it sounds cool. Also, they're older levels)
Builds of PrBoom+ from this year and GZDoom as of 4.2.0 should handle this flawlessly; ZDoom 2.8.1, Zandro and Crispy will play the levels but you'll need to use -warp or IDCLEV.
I've tested DBP04 all the way through, and a few more individual levels about the place, in GZDoom and based on that everything seems to work OK. I couldn't test in PrBoom+ because I'm too stupid to compile from source without clear instructions (I get errors I don't know how to resolve during the configuration process) and you need a more recent build than I've got for the added DeHackEd stuff to work. They seem to be OK in Crispy, but it would be nice if somebody could have a little look see using PrB+ for me; if you don't have a recent build, get this one:
It's Never_Again's release build from DW with the DLLs reinstated for your convenience. Should be as easy as unzip and run but I don't have Windows to check.
If you want to -warp around, the levels are ordered from MAP11-57; the first digit is the 'episode' and the second is the actual map number. MAP03 of DBP03 would therefore be MAP33, MAP07 of DBP05 is MAP57 etc. etc.
Compromises made: No new sounds; DBP02 uses the standard palette; DBP05 uses the intermission music from 01-04 (could change but who cares);
That's it.
Lumps included are: DEHACKED DECORATE (judging by the error messages I get when I start GZDoom it does support the DeHackEd extensions, but it doesn't display the sprites for some reason. I should probably report that in case it's a bug)
UMAPINFO ANIMATED SWITCHES + the usual stuff.
For stuff to do later, it'd be cool to have a real TITLEPIC and CREDIT screen, generally and for each of the episodes, (only 02 and 04 have one currently) but I was too lazy to make 'em. I also get an unknown texture error for SKINTEK2 in some DBP05 maps but DBP05 doesn't have a SKINTEK2 texture anywhere in the source file. This is presumably a compilation error (unless Lobo accidentally deleted it when he modified the file but that seems unlikely).
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Lobo
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Post by Lobo on Jul 9, 2020 10:02:15 GMT -5
I also get an unknown texture error for SKINTEK2 in some DBP05 maps but DBP05 doesn't have a SKINTEK2 texture anywhere in the source file. This is presumably a compilation error (unless Lobo accidentally deleted it when he modified the file but that seems unlikely).
Nope. I just checked the original DBP05 and the mistake was there on map07: Looks like it slipped past you guys back then. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2020 12:44:25 GMT -5
Yay  |
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dmdr
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Post by dmdr on Jul 9, 2020 21:55:31 GMT -5
additions: Credits screens (from a Frank Frazetta painting, the Shadow of the Beast game over screen, a still from the 1931 movie Dracula, and an illustration by Angus McBride) Titlescreen (from DBP_template.wad)
Not many additions but finishing an episode will probably be slightly more satisfying (esp. if you get the Frazetta babe).
edit: shit, I should've done an M_DOOM too. Oh well.
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dmdr
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Post by dmdr on Jul 11, 2020 1:34:48 GMT -5
Well, the last couple versions didn't work with PRBoom+, at all (cheers to plums on DW for helping me with my compilation problems). In part this was because I tried to be clever with the TEXTUREx lumps leading to a dodgy PNAMES -- it seems Crispy is very forgiving with texture stuff since the textures loaded properly there -- and in part because the PRB+ implementation of UMAPINFO has an oversight where it will display the 'ENTERING' intermission screen even if EndGame is specified, causing it to crash when the appropriate CWILV isn't found. I've implemented a proper TEXTURE2/PNAMES lump and added some dummy CWILVs to prevent the crashes.
On a related note I'm going to claim credit for this: the timing of that post, ie. within 48 hrs. of v1 of this wad (which uses the extended states ofc.) and Altazimuth's OP is, well, probably entirely coincidental but on the other hand I PREFER TO BELIEVE IT ISN'T. I suppose printz could say one way or the other, but please don't, you'll spoil my fantasy. In any case Eternity can be added to the list of semi-supported, levels-will-load-but-not-really-work-quite-right-because-no-UMAPINFO ports.
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