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Post by Doomguy 2000 on Apr 6, 2020 23:09:28 GMT -5
This looks like a long read from the replies the thread keeps on getting. Could this be drama of the year?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2020 2:07:19 GMT -5
A bunch of people have cooled their jets in just 24 hours. A bunch of the people doing the "ultra nerd rage" shtick yesterday have apologized to Torm, the guy who did the bad thing in the first place. As much as I have disagreed with some Doomworld administrative actions in bygone years, I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill right now, 40. Which is ironic because your frustrations seems to be from a mix of people making mountains out of molehills and the needless divisiveness and ostracization that happens in the Doom community.
No one is being banned. Many are clearly willing to forgive, even after the millionth time this has happened. So your "the whole community is toxic" act is just bullshit, because I can find a million threads on "scary ol' Doomworld" of really nice and frienly people giving advice to new mappers, helping people fix bugs, helping people get source ports configured, friendly and fun chat between seemingly happy folks, and all that good shit. So what's the go? Is Doomworld "too boring and sterile and friendly" or is it the epicenter of toxicity on the internet (ROFL)? Because the narrative seems to change depending which way the wind blows.. What happened: Facts about what Torm was done were stated. Some people got heated. Torm apologized. Some people forgive him. End of story. Not the end of the world. There are some divisive figures in Doomworld. There are some people that want to ban any and all opposing ideas and other garbage like that. Does that reflect the whole Doom community, or even the Doomworld community as a whole? Fuck no, and we all know it doesn't if we're willing to be honest with ourselves. A couple overly-sensitive, whiny people a "full-blown toxic community" does not make.
This really is the best way for your response to make total sense, 40 - blur our all the context and hyper-focus on one segment of the situation.. I literally cannot imagine mapping for anyone but myself. I almost feel like art is no longer art when the motivations are wrong.
I normally wouldn't "text wall" you like this, but for your own sake and for the sake of you maybe having some fun now that you've rejoined the fold, PLEASE remove that giant wad of tinfoil from your head. It's not a great look dude
EDIT: Just to be crystal clear, I'm among the group who forgives Torm for this. I don't think he's MR. EVIL or some bullshit. I just think people should be held accountable for their actions rather than pretending facts are not facts. He was held accountable and he reacted properly, by apologizing - whatever you might think of the quality of his apology. I see no reason to keep hating on the guy. That doesn't somehow mean he didn't steal, it just means that maybe everyone should realize that it's not the biggest deal and should move on.
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Post by dragonfly on Apr 7, 2020 6:28:12 GMT -5
If you want to play petty games...  |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2020 6:54:37 GMT -5
The amount of F5's / views that thread got in such a short amount of time apparently is a bit frightening. Especially since technology allows notifications now. EDIT: Hi dragonfly nice to see you here maybe I'll map for a project of yours someday when I get really groovin' with Doomin' |
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Apr 7, 2020 8:14:38 GMT -5
Being away from the Doom community for two years gave me a LOT of perspective. The longer i was away, the less interested i was in coming back. The interest in playing and mapping for Doom doesnt really go away, but there is A LOT of pain associated with being invested in the surrounding community. And when you invest so much time in it, you eventually just become numb to it.
So many people are fixated on destroying things, hurting people, and dragging others in the mud. Not just in Doom, in many corners of the internet. Divorcing myself from it was a huge weight off my shoulders. Day by day it was clear to me that there was a LOT of healing to be done.
What i missed about Doom was creating and making an impact in a constructive way. Being a creative person, which all doomers are, is a very difficult life to live. Your work has little monetary value but it's SO IMPORTANT for yourself AND others. Helping people grow and express themselves in their creativity is what makes the doom community worth being a part of.
If you dont have that outlet; a place to express yourself freely while having the respect of your peers that also value that expression, the world can be a terribly dark and unforgiving place for a creative person. And from what ive seen, doomworld is not a healthy place for that.
Through mild or severe trauma (whether its significant is up to the person it effects, not for others to judge) it causes people to want to act out in negative ways that hurt others. Spending years away from the community helped me see that my behavior in it was acting from a place of poorly coping with pain. While I believed in my posts then, I now see how hurtful they were when they were read by others. I was not being the best version of myself and I couldnt see it until very late because for years I hadnt felt any differently. Spending this much time away from it encouraged me to do more things out of love. I wanted to help people, give gifts, and create things.
This whole tormentor thing was a very poignant reminder that there is a vicious cycle of ill intentions towards one another in the doom community (and this isnt a problem unique to doom) that manifests in a lot of mixed feelings of sadness, anger, rivalry, idolatry, jealousy, rejection, etc.
The only way to stop it is to get ahead of it. If someone hurt you in the past, you own the responsibility of not reciprocating that hurt to others. Yes, it sucks because its not in your control if someone else hurts you. Its never your fault. The onus is entirely on the person thats inflicting the pain. But if you use your voice to perpetuate it, youre just breeding toxicity that makes the world a very difficult place to live in.
Theres a severe lack of love in doomworld that is unclear when youre deep in it, but so obvious when you see it from the outside in. It shows itself in the form of vitriolic posts, distrust, alliances, overreactions, private conversations, a lack of communication, a lack of listening and understanding each other, a high turnover of members, and the number of members that are just lurkers.
Doomworlds problem hasnt really bled over to here. I was gone for two years leaving this place almost totally unmoderated and almost nothing bad happened. The members that are a part of this forum seem to have a lot of respect for each other. Theres a lot of pent up frustration on doomworld that I believe I contributed to a lot. Even though they insisted I was the problem when I was banned, the problem is still there.
I hope the doomers on doomworld will be able to break free of that cycle eventually because I hate to see so many of them clearly not enjoying themselves. It cant feel good in the long term to know you've hurt another doomer or more. i maintain that a good community is built through love, even when people dont act as though they deserve it. And thus far ive been very pleased with how well received doomer boards has been from anyone that isnt attached to doomworld.
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joe-ilya
Hey, Ron! Can we say 'fuck' in the game?
a simple word, a simple turd
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Post by joe-ilya on Apr 7, 2020 8:39:28 GMT -5
It does seem like 40 cuts some parts of the story to fit his narrative, he focuses on the bad, but keeps out the good, such as :
Ignoring that Dragonfly wanted to hear Torm's side of the story.
But focusing that Dragonfly wanted an apology and making it seem like Dragonfly is some petty asshole who doesn't give a shit about what Torm has to say.
Ignoring that DRAGONFLY ACCEPTED THE APOLOGY.
But focusing about how Dragonfly is still in doubt, making it seem like Dragonfly does not accept the apology.
You've become what you hated, 40, a dying shame.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2020 8:49:54 GMT -5
Perhaps highlighting the text you wanted to focus on instead of blurring out the rest would have been better. Censorship is not a very cool thing after all.
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Post by dragonfly on Apr 7, 2020 8:56:34 GMT -5
Being away from the Doom community for two years gave me a LOT of perspective. The longer i was away, the less interested i was in coming back. The interest in playing and mapping for Doom doesnt really go away, but there is A LOT of pain associated with being invested in the surrounding community. And when you invest so much time in it, you eventually just become numb to it. So many people are fixated on destroying things, hurting people, and dragging others in the mud. Not just in Doom, in many corners of the internet. Divorcing myself from it was a huge weight off my shoulders. Day by day it was clear to me that there was a LOT of healing to be done. Don't misread this as a suggestion you shouldn't be here, but if you feel this is the case for yourself, why have you returned? Genuinely asking. What i missed about Doom was creating and making an impact in a constructive way. Being a creative person, which all doomers are, is a very difficult life to live. Your work has little monetary value but it's SO IMPORTANT for yourself AND others. Helping people grow and express themselves in their creativity is what makes the doom community worth being a part of. This I couldn't agree more with. Doom content creation is an art form, a method of expression, a coping mechanism for some, and ultimately it's a hobby that takes immeasurable amounts of people's time, love and energy. That's why there was so much controversy about the plagiarism situation, as the act of plagiarism (intentional or otherwise) goes against this very sentiment. Through mild or severe trauma (whether its significant is up to the person it effects, not for others to judge) it causes people to want to act out in negative ways that hurt others. Spending years away from the community helped me see that my behavior in it was acting from a place of poorly coping with pain. While I believed in my posts then, I now see how hurtful they were when they were read by others. I was not being the best version of myself and I couldnt see it until very late because for years I hadnt felt any differently. Spending this much time away from it encouraged me to do more things out of love. I wanted to help people, give gifts, and create things. The only way to stop it is to get ahead of it. If someone hurt you in the past, you own the responsibility of not reciprocating that hurt to others. Yes, it sucks because its not in your control if someone else hurts you. Its never your fault. The onus is entirely on the person thats inflicting the pain. But if you use your voice to perpetuate it, youre just breeding toxicity that makes the world a very difficult place to live in. It's good to see that you're somewhat learning from your actions, but surely taking the story to another platform to bash the community in your own 'safe zone' is still reminiscent of that. Especially quoting only the parts of messages that align with your viewpoint rather than taking the full message and it's context into account. I'd advise you do as you say and "get ahead of it". Rise above. Yes a counterpoint you could make is to spit that phrase back in my face, but I felt this needs to be addressed with conversation, not passive aggression. Theres a severe lack of love in doomworld that is unclear when youre deep in it, but so obvious when you see it from the outside in. It shows itself in the form of vitriolic posts, distrust, alliances, overreactions, private conversations, a lack of communication, a lack of listening and understanding each other, a high turnover of members, and the number of members that are just lurkers. A point I would wholeheartedly contest against. Yes, there's the odd member here or there who doesn't seem to provide anything positive to the community and the typical response is to essentially tell said person to fuck off in a few more words than that, but the number of active members who are there with a preference for positive conversation and share a love in this hobby and eachother's works massively outweigh those who are here to spread their vitriol. What the above-quoted section does ironically is exactly what it's trying to combat; this viewpoint is built from a lack of communication, a lack of listening and understanding, and utilises feelings from 'past pain' as it's foundation. I daresay Doomerboards as a whole is subject to this statement, being a form of alliance / "private" conversation separate from the community as a whole. Now that's not me calling you / DB out as a bad place or people, before anyone tries to spin it that way. Not at all; rather it's completely normal that within a community of this size, smaller communities will form and that not everybody will see eye-to-eye; it's just human nature and societal norms. Just like you, I'm not perfect either. I've made my fair share of unreasonably snarky or aggressive comments in my time which, if I could take back, I would. I also will very likely make more in the future - it's not great, but that's how human emotions work. Doomworlds problem hasnt really bled over to here. I was gone for two years leaving this place almost totally unmoderated and almost nothing bad happened. The members that are a part of this forum seem to have a lot of respect for each other. Theres a lot of pent up frustration on doomworld that I believe I contributed to a lot. Even though they insisted I was the problem when I was banned, the problem is still there. Doomworld isn't perfect, no. Neither is DB, ZDoom forums or any community. I don't want to reopen this particular discussion, but the reasons behind your ban appeared to be fair. You weren't THE problem, but you were A problem; sadly. I've seen plenty of spiteful, flat out aggressive commentary on these forums, same as anywhere else. You're percieving it differently because you're more accepted in this subcommunity than others perhaps, but truth of the matter is, the same shit happens wherever you go. We're all humans, we repeat the same cycles, it's jsut how life goes. That doesn't mean we all can't make a more conscious effort to prevent these occurences, but there's always going to be a few bad eggs, and oftentimes those people will seem good at first and build a position of respect / authority before they show their true colours. I know how bad calling Torm out on this seems, I want to clarify that I wasn't sure if I should go public with it, so I simply checked with a handful of others if they've heard of similar occurences and what their opinion on the matter is. When I found out that in fact, there were previous instances which were 'settled' privately, I felt a public callout was probably the course of action that would succeed in it's mission the most: preventing the occurence of this type of stuff reoccuring. Another member, much newer, was recently outed as consistently plagiarising content (much more severely than Torm was, too), so it seems to me that a public thread will help to raise awareness that it's not okay to do this. We all see Doom as an art form, and need to maintain it's integrity for our own sake. You can spin my words however you like, feel free to quote small sections of this like you have before; but I'd prefer we either talk this out like adults, reading every word and not dropping any of the context in favour of our viewpoints, or instead just drop the entire conversation. Your call. |
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joe-ilya
Hey, Ron! Can we say 'fuck' in the game?
a simple word, a simple turd
Posts: 3,078
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Post by joe-ilya on Apr 7, 2020 9:30:09 GMT -5
I don't want to reopen this particular discussion, but the reasons behind your ban appeared to be fair. You weren't THE problem, but you were A problem; sadly. I've seen plenty of spiteful, flat out aggressive commentary on these forums, same as anywhere else. I agree with just about everything else you said, except for that point. DoomWorld shouldn't be advocating what's happening on other websites and banning people based on things that aren't related to their website, it is A problem, but it's not A RELATED problem; thus an unjustified reasoning, that's a forced opinion that was shoved onto 40oz unfairly, it's basically shady, indirect rule enforcement. |
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Apr 7, 2020 9:30:24 GMT -5
Whats the best way to contact you directly?
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Post by dragonfly on Apr 7, 2020 9:36:28 GMT -5
I agree with just about everything else you said, except for that point. DoomWorld shouldn't be advocating what's happening on other websites and banning people based on things that aren't related to their website, it is A problem, but it's not A RELATED problem; thus an unjustified reasoning, that's a forced opinion that was shoved onto 40oz unfairly, it's basically shady, indirect rule enforcement. I perhaps don't have the full story. The things I've heard seemed reasonable. However, that said, I actually think on the contrary. If someone cannot conduct themselves in a manner that is acceptable elsewhere, why would you wait for that person to perform similar actions in your own community? But fair enough, not all will agree with that stance. Whats the best way to contact you directly? Most contact me directly via Discord, though I feel in the spirit of everything here, perhaps a public discussion would be better suited. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2020 9:59:43 GMT -5
Am I smelling a fresh WXR episode in the making?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2020 10:12:04 GMT -5
I perhaps don't have the full story. The things I've heard seemed reasonable. However, that said, I actually think on the contrary. If someone cannot conduct themselves in a manner that is acceptable elsewhere, why would you wait for that person to perform similar actions in your own community? But fair enough, not all will agree with that stance. Yeah I wouldn't agree with that; Social Credit Systems are pretty gross and surely it's... 'human nature' to behave differently under different environments as a sort of 'societal norm'. Asking 40oz himself about his own banning along with the people that were here for it would have made for a better inquiry on that topic. Personally I think of Doomworld as just another subcommunity among this grand community that I'd say is abstractly made of all the lovely fans of this classic game called Doom. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2020 10:15:58 GMT -5
If someone cannot conduct themselves in a manner that is acceptable elsewhere, why would you wait for that person to perform similar actions in your own community? But fair enough, not all will agree with that stance. Yeah, I wouldn't agree on that stance. I will give two reasons why: - terms of what is acceptable can vary from forum to forum. Zdoom didn't wait long to close the thread related to plagiarism incident, and Zdoom admins specifically stated they think that bringing it public is irresponsive and it should be settled in private first. Certainly their standards are different. - it is like an assertion that a person who committed one minor civil offense will necessary repeat that offense, and thus should be jailed rather than fined. Or fined repeatedly everywhere they go. |
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xeepeep
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Post by xeepeep on Apr 7, 2020 10:20:51 GMT -5
If you want to play petty games... LMAO 40 gonna disappear for another 2 years after this A point I would wholeheartedly contest against. Eh idk man, I've never been on doomworld's good side (unlike you and 40oz) so I might not be seeing the full picture, but I fully agree with what 40 says and I think your disagreement even confirms it somewhat. A lot of people there are unnecessarily harsh towards others, very quick to entirely dismiss someone who's not in their little clique, and often really stuck in the small things (such as petty conflicts) instead of focusing on the bigger picture and realising the pointlessness of it all, not to mention often FULL of plain HATE. It's insane how much negativity do some of those people harbour within themselves. Yeah a lot of assholes get banned and that's good (but also some really cool characters such as ME), but a number of assholes suffers no consequences because their oral cavity is permanently hooked onto the mods' primary sexual characteristics. Anyone on this forum could easily name at least 5 of such people LOL. Their assholery isn't even that visible anymore, everyone who would dare call them out got banned at some point, sooner or later. |
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joe-ilya
Hey, Ron! Can we say 'fuck' in the game?
a simple word, a simple turd
Posts: 3,078
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Post by joe-ilya on Apr 7, 2020 10:55:37 GMT -5
why would you wait for that person to perform similar actions in your own community? 40oz has been an amazing contributor to DoomWorld for entire 10 years, winning a Cacoword (and some runner-ups) and making a name for himself. People don't take more than 10 years to commit a vendetta on a forum, it's very shady and I think it hides the true intention of why he was actually banned, I'm sorry to be a conspiracy theory kind of guy, but it's so ridiculous, that I can only think that way about the issue. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2020 11:35:02 GMT -5
Agreed, as usual. You're passionate 40, can't deny it, it's respectable, but maybe too much so. Don't get too wrapped up in it, a bed of lovely roses cuts very deep when you embrace it too hard. Also calling Doomworld toxic and trash is just as bad as calling Doomerboards Alt-Right. We both know those are lies. |
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joe-ilya
Hey, Ron! Can we say 'fuck' in the game?
a simple word, a simple turd
Posts: 3,078
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Post by joe-ilya on Apr 7, 2020 12:01:23 GMT -5
Also calling Doomworld toxic and trash is just as bad as calling Doomerboards Alt-Right. Yes! So much this! Very much in line of me saying 40oz "has become what he hates". |
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dn
Body Count: 02
the motherfucking darknation
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Post by dn on Apr 7, 2020 12:37:31 GMT -5
I was gone for two years leaving this place almost totally unmoderated and almost nothing bad happened. Interesting. It's almost like a forum culture that regulates itself through mechanisms such as mutual earned respect, treating retarded posts with the contempt they deserve, mounting the occasional head on a spike and opening a discord honeypot entitled "Glen's Vodka Shitpost Society" not only works, but works well: it serves to keep that culture respectful and comtemptful while preserving the perfect shit-to-post ratio that keeps the bile from building up and the lulz flowing. During the entire period there were a grand total of three outright murder-bans and one account suicide to clean up. And now the conversation has moved from Organizing a Lynching to debating the Ethics of Lynching. Which is a fucking tragedy, because organization is one of my fucking core skillsets. edit: as for calling DW toxic and trash, I think that it's become a shorthand. It's not calling out the userbase / good faith posters: it's saying that the culture favors and rewards spectacular dumpster-fires, which is pretty much what happens when more than half your moderators are spectacular dumpster-fires with a vested, ideological investment in both dumpsters and fires. |
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Post by optimus on Apr 7, 2020 14:00:20 GMT -5
I don't know much about Tormentors mapping (maybe I played some of his maps but I don't remember), but hell what a weird way to design maps? The enjoyful thing about Doom mapping is drawing everything from scratch. I would never want to copy paste other people's layouts, I want to draw everything line by line and imagine spaces and create them from scratch. And really,. most of Doom map plagiarism examples have these generic layouts of rectangular, squary, a bit of octagonish, etc.. very formally placed, they look good in the eye with their inner techbase design, really professional textures, etc,. but this generic layout, I've seen it too many times (not only in Tormentor's map but others) and while those maps seems very well done technically, they just happen to be no memorable. I am pretty sure he is famous for some megawads (gonna check the wiki) because I remember his nickname, but I couldn't connect him with "Oh,. that's the guy who did that WAD I enjoyed!", because maybe most of them are generic. I am not trying to shit on him, just a general observation of a lot of Doom maps that otherwise professional, somehow I forget them after I finish, they are like coming from a standard blueprint (of course the irony of these one because also carbon copies of areas like it's some Doom 2016 shit  Oh, and people on DW? I have seen a bit the thread. Everyone wants to shit. It's some kind of reverse virtue signalling, I am gonna shit on the other person just to show how much better I am. I know, it's like self-projection, I am doing it right now. I am shitting on people shitting on people |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2020 15:50:47 GMT -5
Even when I wanted to copy map areas that I really liked 1:1 they always end up looking completely different. It's kind of shocking to me that a mapper as talented as Torm would plagiarize.
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joe-ilya
Hey, Ron! Can we say 'fuck' in the game?
a simple word, a simple turd
Posts: 3,078
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Post by joe-ilya on Apr 7, 2020 18:49:01 GMT -5
the culture favors and rewards spectacular dumpster-fires How is what happening in that thread different from what happening in this thread? Both have people disappointed in Tormentor and calling him out, and both have people offering the same defenses. Sure, some people got really heated at first, but now it seems to cool down a little, but remember that it was at the heat of the moment and the forum has a huge and active community, so the thread is going to be filled fast with quick unfiltered thoughts in the first couple hours. Not a fair comparison to this quaint site with only a handful of active people, I'm pretty sure if this forum was as populated, as DW and had more of the same people that are already here, then this thread would also be a dumbster fire. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2020 20:55:02 GMT -5
I don't think he's referring to the "dumpster fire" you think he's referring too.
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Apr 8, 2020 3:47:58 GMT -5
huh  (sorry about grayscale, trying to keep filesize small) 32in24-16 MAP10: scarydarkfast by 40oz 32in24-17 MAP11: scarydarkfast menagetrois by TMD Semantics: - I have no beef with TMD. He's a cool guy. Like Bob Page, im flattered that he liked the map enough to do this with my sectors. - I am credited as a co-creator of this map, though the map was submitted on doomworld in Feb 2019. I was banned in March 2018 and have never been in a 32in24 discord. - I was never contacted about whether it was cool to do this. (if asked it would have been fine, but omg copy-pasted sectors.) - The text file for 32in24-16 does say the following, so it is legal. (i think???) * Copyright / Permissions *
This work is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial
4.0 International License. To view a copy of this license, visit
creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/
You are free to copy and redistribute the material in any medium or format;
and remix, transform, and build upon the material. If you do so, you must
give appropriate credit, provide a link to the license, and indicate if
changes were made. You may do so in any reasonable manner, but not in any way
that suggests the licensor endorses you or your use. You may not use the
material for commercial purposes.Files:32in24-16: www.doomworld.com/idgames/levels/doom2/deathmatch/Ports/megawads/32in241632in24-16: rhinoduck.net/kmwads/32in24-17.zip |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2020 4:21:09 GMT -5
I'm not seeing the problem there, 40oz. 32in24-16 gives permission for that, you've submitted a map to it knowing that the project leads will be writing the text file out of your control. There were 15 previous 32in24 projects for you to see what their prior form is with rights. Anybody could do the same thing with any map in any WAD that has a similar clause in the text file.
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