fud
I'm too young to die
Posts: 6
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Post by fud on Aug 16, 2024 15:35:25 GMT -5
I was going to post this over on DW and the ZDoom forums but in the current climate I'm not sure this thread would be taken in good faith so I've signed up here.
So, what are the salient differences between all these standards for mapping and modding? Also, what stopped Hexen's extended stuff becoming standard over vanilla Doom?
I've been playing Doom and the like since the year dot but I've never got to grips with mapping or modding beyond some sprite replacements or basic dehacked but with recent 'talk' about this new standard from the re-re-release it got me curious Doom standards both old and new.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2024 16:02:18 GMT -5
I don't give a fuck should be the standard, running around with "I don't have permission and it's immoral" in my head is ridiculous, I read that crap over there too, when I first started messing with maps four years ago over there seeing "them" pick apart someones good work because certain textures don't belong in certain places set me off and fuck the re release (drops mic)
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Post by camper on Aug 16, 2024 16:14:20 GMT -5
Lately I think there are no strict standards. Each port creates its own tool for modification. It seems that the two main branches are vanilla and gzdoom. Vanilla uses modification based on dehacked www.aspectsweb.co.uk/dehacked/ and its extensions up to mbf21 and id24. In gzdoom, a scripting language is used for modding. Initially it was decorate, and now zscript. Decorate was also used in some other doom ports. In addition, other ports use their own scripting languages. So everything is quite confusing. The best way to learn it yourself is using doomwiki and resources on doom ports sites and on their forums. I started learning this with gzdoom and k8vavoom, but now I decided to look at older things.
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Post by gije on Aug 16, 2024 16:30:04 GMT -5
Basically, it's like this: Vanilla - can run on the original dos .exe; has tight limits on visplanes (distinct visible floor/ceiling heights/textures per any vantage point), excessive linedefs within field of view lead to hall-of-mirrors effect. (linedefs are broken up by the engine into 'segs' which is the relevant term for this limit) Dehacked (.deh format; think .bex is a later expanded thing for ports) patches can be used, but must be applied directly to the binary (.exe) itself if using the original binary.
Limit Removing - same as above, but with the limits massively increased to the point where they're probably not going to be an issue. generally supports dehacked patches (deh and bex) being applied to internal game frame/data tables in a controlled manner, in a convenient way. must be run in a source port.
Boom - early sourceport expansion, most importantly adding Generalized specials which allow combining various effects into one so you can apply multiple effects at once. Very widely supported.
MBF - further iteration of above, not as widely-supported.
Hexen - differing map data due to stuff like polyobjects and additional thing fields. OG Hexen itself basically mostly ditched line/sector specials and almost everything is done via ACS scripting. much less convenient and a bit more time-consuming, but raises possibilities (speaking particularly about Hexen here). Supported to one degree or another by some ports, including of course 'Doom in Hexen' format, which I'm pretty sure retains original line and sector specials. Off-hand, I'm really not sure to what extent ACS scripting and Hexen format are tied together outside of Hexen specifically.
DECORATE - introduced at some point by ZDoom. basically something like a saner take on dehacked patching (never used it, myself.) A few different ports support it to one degree or another.
... bunch of different things go here intrinsic to other ports, like Vavoom C, DDF, COAL, EDF
GZDoom - basically a big pile of possibilities; ZDoom became the most popular engine for extensive modding, and GZDoom inherited this momentum and built upon it. ZDoom and GZDoom both tweaked Doom gameplay somewhat arbitrarily in various ways which bothers some. Examples include higher-precision/fixed physics which eliminated tricks like wall-running, default removal of 'infinite height' of doom actors, etc. It's a distinct experience.
More detail can be found on Doomwiki.org, but this should cover a fair bit. There're also the later iterations on Dehacked like DSDehacked and the MBF21 stuff. The most popular formats are, in no particular order, Vanilla, Boom, and GZDoom's stuff. I haven't kept up with/ really paid attention to MBF21, but it's probably also used lately. ID24 is the new 'official' thing which I don't think is actually fully implemented by anything, yet, and its actual future is currently in question.
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Post by camper on Aug 16, 2024 16:57:22 GMT -5
It should be added that there is a difference in mapping. Vanilla/boom uses the doom graphics format, uses texture and patch tables, there is a big difference between floor/ceiling textures and wall textures, which can be composite. In gzdoom, you can use png graphic files, and use them for floors and walls, scale them, make them composite using a much simpler table index. In advanced ports, mods and games can be packed into a zip archive with the pk3 extension, but the directory structure must be built according to certain rules. In vanilla/boom, wad is a special archive that has a solid structure with separators between game data (it can be opened using the slade3 program). As you can see, even in this there are many ways and no unity.
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40oz
diRTbAg
Posts: 6,122
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Post by 40oz on Aug 16, 2024 17:32:44 GMT -5
Theres a pretty small subset of players who are willing to change away from the doom source port they've configured for their optimal doom experience.
point being you can pick a mapping format based on what features you plan to work with, but the closer you work to vanilla will likely yield most exposure (e.g. more potential players)
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Post by ketmar on Aug 16, 2024 19:53:40 GMT -5
also, it is important to remember that different ports do lighting in different ways. ports like Chocolate, Crispy, PrBoom, DSDA, Retro are using original software rendering, they are most authentic regarding to lighting (new KEX port is sw too, btw). ports with hardware-accelerated rendering often have different light diminishing settings (because original Vanilla lighting is very hard — if possible at all — to implement in hw). so if you fine-tuned your map to one of hw-accelerated ports, it may look too light/too dark/just weird in sw ports, and vice versa.
yeah, we have decades of legacy, and sourceports, and… it is all complicated now. ;-)
prolly the easiest way to start mapping is simply choose the port you like, and make maps which look and work good in it.
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Post by Moonsweeper on Aug 16, 2024 21:10:56 GMT -5
Lately I think there are no strict standards. Each port creates its own tool for modification. It seems that the two main branches are vanilla and gzdoom. Vanilla uses modification based on dehacked www.aspectsweb.co.uk/dehacked/ and its extensions up to mbf21 and id24. In gzdoom, a scripting language is used for modding. Initially it was decorate, and now zscript. Decorate was also used in some other doom ports. In addition, other ports use their own scripting languages. So everything is quite confusing. The best way to learn it yourself is using doomwiki and resources on doom ports sites and on their forums. I started learning this with gzdoom and k8vavoom, but now I decided to look at older things. Something funny that I didn't see people mention too much is that neither the new port nor the ID24 standard are even Vanilla. The new port isn't demo compatible, something that even the Unity port managed to do, and the reimplementations of Boom and MBF aren't accurate. It's like they hired Graf Zahl, took a few GZDoom features and asked explicitly vanilla ports to implement it.
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StodgyAyatollah
Doomer
I'm not here. You're just imagining things.
Posts: 504
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Post by StodgyAyatollah on Aug 16, 2024 22:52:56 GMT -5
That's something that confuses me. Implementing boom and mbf into a commercial port pretty much guaranteed it would be inaccurate because of how it would have to be done. It just doesn't make sense to me that they would do that and pitch it as the new "standard" when it's always going the be detached from the foundation it's trying to emulate. Unless the id24 stuff could just be piecemealed my other devs? Can't say I'm too knowledgeable about that stuff. Little bit off topic though.
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