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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2024 15:51:20 GMT -5
Figure I'd see what y'all gotta say about using chatgt and shit to learn decorates when you're not some coder and work entry level jobs. Made some stuff for my castle wad today using bing chat bot that was yeah simple, but now I at least know what means what better than copy and pasting someone else's stuff, DW didn't surprise when I asked the question over there... I'm putting a butt load of time into this 15 map wad probably two people will like or even end up playing, and thanks to chatgt it looks a lot better than it would have. Attachments:
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Post by JadingTsunami on Aug 13, 2024 16:01:48 GMT -5
It's a useful tool. I think there is no reason not to use it, so long as you know enough to understand how to impart your own judgment.
Where maybe it is a dangerous tool is that, the AI does not "understand" anything it tells you. So you must apply your own logic to its outputs and correct them as necessary.
It's best to think of it like having a very eager helper who is not very experienced but is hardworking. You must check the helper's work, but they can save you a lot of time and energy.
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Post by ketmar on Aug 13, 2024 16:12:21 GMT -5
so now instead of one thing you don't know how to do, you have two things you don't have any clue about. sure, go on, i'll count the time to the first "oh, why this doesn't work" question.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2024 16:34:12 GMT -5
It's a useful tool. I think there is no reason not to use it, so long as you know enough to understand how to impart your own judgment. Where maybe it is a dangerous tool is that, the AI does not "understand" anything it tells you. So you must apply your own logic to its outputs and correct them as necessary. It's best to think of it like having a very eager helper who is not very experienced but is hardworking. You must check the helper's work, but they can save you a lot of time and energy. *This sums it up nicely, yeah I constantly have to be very very specific with it but helps a shit ton.
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Post by voisynelvet on Aug 13, 2024 16:49:09 GMT -5
If it gets the job done for your mini-hobby, sure. I mostly agree with @vyruss otherwise.
I have never actually used any LLMs myself but I'm not doomsday about 'em either.
Outside of Doom, some people use them as a glorified auto-complete integrated into their code editor, at least when they're typing out something obvious or repetitive; but I've also heard some people stop it after experimenting with it and turning it off, and they notice their brain lag because their muscle-memory has been trained to wait for a response.
Other people suggest they're good for auto-generating unit tests for your code that you wrote yourself. That's a good use. Probably doesn't apply to your Doom stuff though.
In answering questions, I have a love-hate for them. They boil things down to a median in a knowledge base, or just boil down the "safest" denominator. "Hey bot, will I ever find love?" Answer: If I'm searching for an answer, I want a smorgasbord of varying hot takes.
Pertaining back to Doom: When it comes to creativity, my only gripe is that it ends up with a lot of "I made dis" situations. Even stuff like photoshop in the past had a lot of filters and tools (hard algorithms, not even trained models) that just "do stuff for you", and I have a petty side of me that feels like some artistic integrity is lost when using them. And, especially when leveraging machine learning, the line blurs for who/what to attribute the work to (how much of the art was actually you). There's something just more cool and badass about hand-etching the crap out of everything. Same in coding. Those Buddhist monks who painstakingly make sand Mandalas, only to smash them afterwards... *shivers*.
But yah, I wouldn't have shame in doing what you're doing. It sounds modest enough. It's low profile, and it's not like you're asking Copilot to build missile defense logic or anything.
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Post by ketmar on Aug 13, 2024 17:12:48 GMT -5
maybe i should make myself more clear too. i have nothing against using llms too. but most of the time the problem with people using llms is that they're trying to use llm to do the things the people themselves don't know how to do. which leads to the situation where you have two unknown things instad of one.
sure, it's not really different from "i copypasted this piece of code, it does what i want, and i don't care how it does that" situation. which is not the best (or even good) solution too, i believe.
that is, of course, use any tool you want to. i only wanted to tell that sooner or later (prolly sooner) you'll hit the problem you will be unable to solve. and at that time the amount of autogenerated crap might lead to the situation where there will be nobody to help you, because digging through llm hallucinations is not fun at all.
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Aug 13, 2024 21:30:09 GMT -5
Learning language models can interpret and create custom DECORATE? How much complexity can it handle?
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StodgyAyatollah
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Post by StodgyAyatollah on Aug 13, 2024 21:53:28 GMT -5
I once used chatgpt to write a dynamic seasonal weather system for a neverwinter nights mod just to see if it could. That game essentially uses a stripped down version of C. I just gave it the calls for the different weather actions, the format of the game's calendar system and the restrictions of it's language. It spit out flawless code that worked great. That was just out of the box chatgpt quite a while back so I imagine they can do a lot with proper instruction.
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Post by JadingTsunami on Aug 13, 2024 22:16:15 GMT -5
Learning language models can interpret and create custom DECORATE? How much complexity can it handle? A fair amount, you just need to provide enough context for it to "imitate" the syntax. Depending on the LLM you are using, its context window size may or may not be large enough to fit a nice example DECORATE in there. In other words: If you can paste in an example, the LLM will do a much better job at generating new code for you based on your descriptions. My speculation about LLMs is that there is a latent "meaning" space below the ordinary semantic space of language, and LLMs figure out how to map the two. And since they have an internal representation of the meaning space, they can create transforms between the two pretty easily. So once you give it the ability to transform "syntax" to "meaning", it can extend the concepts fairly easily.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2024 4:39:52 GMT -5
Tonight I couldn't get the damn thing to do anything right, yesterday it helped write script while I was writing script as I thought this would be great to stream line the process, everything it said was wrong this day...the other day it handled my prompts perfect, very strange. Gotta sweet talk it I guess, got to the point I was telling it why it was wrong and it just didn't fix the issue, just kept repeating the same script like "oh my mistake let's try that again" fuck it oh well...gonna carry on.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2024 5:37:52 GMT -5
It is a good way to help get to the root of a problem with coding, by copy pasting errors. I figured out a lot of CMD, Ubuntu, and powershell stuff I had to do, with it. It is really amazing.
I've created projects that are drawn pixel by pixel from scratch (like 95% of the patches from Aliens: Ultimate Doom, as well as sprites). But now I'm using it to help me make textures. You have to weed through a lot of generations and still do a fair amount of manual manipulation. But it is still an enjoyable endeavor and liberating from being bogged down reducing the amount of time it takes. Plus you can upload pictures too and ask for suggestions on what could make it look better to capture what you are intending.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2024 5:43:12 GMT -5
Looking forward to when you can auto generate sprite sheets. I think that is when you will see a real golden era of 2.5D mods. The people today who are making mods, if still modding, will be at the forefront of it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2024 6:05:38 GMT -5
Tonight I couldn't get the damn thing to do anything right, yesterday it helped write script while I was writing script as I thought this would be great to stream line the process, everything it said was wrong this day...the other day it handled my prompts perfect, very strange. Gotta sweet talk it I guess, got to the point I was telling it why it was wrong and it just didn't fix the issue, just kept repeating the same script like "oh my mistake let's try that again" fuck it oh well...gonna carry on. Sometimes it creates bullshit which is very frustrating. But persistence is the key. It is like an idiot suvanet, perhaps change up the prompt to more direct specifications.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2024 7:28:48 GMT -5
Fuck yeah.
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Gokuma
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Post by Gokuma on Aug 14, 2024 8:18:23 GMT -5
I have my doubts about AI writing a script that's actually functional. First screw ChetGPT. Don't give them your money. Their AI is trained on literal lies and refuses to give responses you ask for. Here Kontra asked it for day-night cycle ACS code and it generated simplistic nonfunctional crap. I didn't even notice or remember this post with the code until after I programmed the huge amount of functional code in Friday the 13th Jason's Doom. If anything, get X(formally Twitter)'s Grok, that's not chained down by communist woketards.
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Post by ketmar on Aug 14, 2024 12:33:51 GMT -5
My speculation about LLMs is that there is a latent "meaning" space below the ordinary semantic space of language nope. do not fool yourself trying to find some hidden meanings and tech in dumb pattern matcher. because llms are just this: pattern matchers. they are basically lossy compressors, storing a lot of patterns in a very-very compressed way, and with the ability to extract patterns which are usually close one to another in the source data set. that's it. our world is full of patterns. our brains are very good at spotting patterns. but this is not an "inteligence", nor any other kind of "understanding". and it is definitely not some "shared meaning". it's just patterns.
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Post by JadingTsunami on Aug 14, 2024 12:43:08 GMT -5
My speculation about LLMs is that there is a latent "meaning" space below the ordinary semantic space of language nope. do not fool yourself trying to find some hidden meanings and tech in dumb pattern matcher. because llms are just this: pattern matchers. they are basically lossy compressors, storing a lot of patterns in a very-very compressed way, and with the ability to extract patterns which are usually close one to another in the source data set. that's it. our world is full of patterns. our brains are very good at spotting patterns. but this is not an "inteligence", nor any other kind of "understanding". and it is definitely not some "shared meaning". it's just patterns. I agree there's nothing I could call true intelligence or creativity (at least not at this point). I just intend to say, I suspect meaning can be represented in a high-dimension vector space which allows mathematical transformations to modify meanings directly, and those modified meanings can be transformed back into language. Yes it is a "magic trick" in a sense. The key point: There is no new information being generated in such a system, only transformations on existing concepts. I probably will stop now to not go off the rails of the thread too much...
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Post by ketmar on Aug 14, 2024 12:45:57 GMT -5
yep, the word "meaning" has so many meanings that it is hard to define its meaning… ;-)
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Aug 14, 2024 19:14:02 GMT -5
This thread have me the idea to use an AI chat to write scripts too. It's definitely helpful if it is language you know 'something' about so you can interpret whether it's doing anything right or not. If you can logically break what you want it to do into individual steps and work on them one at a time you can make some really handy things.
In about 10 minutes I have made a little batch script that builds new DBP project folders for me when I'm ready to start a new one.
What I found most helpful is asking it what the name and syntax are for certain commands by describing to it what they do, and the bot will give me some examples of the code I described being used. This is something I previously had to search for on google and have a dozen tabs open for different reference websites with too much to read on it. It's nice to have a little assistant/tutor that can remind me of things I haven't really practiced using all the time.
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