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Post by qwaz on Jul 22, 2024 16:49:45 GMT -5
So I recently got into Doom (been playing Quake all these years and regret not getting into it sooner!) and I've been using GZdoom. I know that jumping was originally not an option and gzdoom allows it. But how can I tell if the custom maps I'm playing are made to allow jumping?
Will the custom maps be made with jumping disabled? Or is there a setting in gzdoom that I can check to make sure it's adhering to the map makers rules?
Sorry if this doesn't make sense.
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Post by JadingTsunami on Jul 22, 2024 17:19:01 GMT -5
Seems like a reasonable question to me; it's not intuitive.
The absolute basics are:
1. If a map/mod is NOT made for GZDoom, it's assumed that jumping and/or crouching will break the map. 2. If a map/mod is made for GZDoom, jumping and/or crouching are assumed to be OK unless the author disables them.
There are of course always exceptions, but these cover well over 95% of the cases a player will encounter.
It's possible to request engines to disable jumping/crouching, but not all WAD/mod authors do this consistently (and of course many predate such mechanisms too).
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Post by qwaz on Jul 22, 2024 17:51:29 GMT -5
Ok, thanks! I was playing a map and was able to jump to get a key and for some reason I didn't think I was supposed to. Good to know!
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Post by Bob Page on Jul 22, 2024 22:31:04 GMT -5
Sometimes you can check the README.TXT file, and if an author wants you to know that jumping is necessary or that jumping will break their map, they will state it there. But otherwise, the best assumption is that jumping will destroy the intended experience, as will crouching.
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StodgyAyatollah
Doomer
I'm not here. You're just imagining things.
Posts: 485
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Post by StodgyAyatollah on Jul 23, 2024 1:16:12 GMT -5
I always play as if jumping is disabled unless the mapper says otherwise or it becomes clear by playing the map that it's required. I rarely play anything outside limit removing, boom or mbf but back when I played more gzdoom stuff this approach worked well for me. It's possible more mappers could be making stuff built around jumping now but at least from my past experience it was always fairly uncommon.
EDIT: Saw that you've been playing some of the DBPs judging by your posts. Since they are made for limit removing ports they are built for the limitation of no jumping. So part of your answer is that you can make inferences depending on the maps format. For example if specified as vanilla, limit removing or boom you can infer that they are made for no jumping and will be correct 99.9% of the time. If you're new to Doom it takes a while to understand the different formats if you even choose to pay any attention to them though.
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Post by qwaz on Jul 23, 2024 8:38:23 GMT -5
I always play as if jumping is disabled unless the mapper says otherwise or it becomes clear by playing the map that it's required. I rarely play anything outside limit removing, boom or mbf but back when I played more gzdoom stuff this approach worked well for me. It's possible more mappers could be making stuff built around jumping now but at least from my past experience it was always fairly uncommon. EDIT: Saw that you've been playing some of the DBPs judging by your posts. Since they are made for limit removing ports they are built for the limitation of no jumping. So part of your answer is that you can make inferences depending on the maps format. For example if specified as vanilla, limit removing or boom you can infer that they are made for no jumping and will be correct 99.9% of the time. If you're new to Doom it takes a while to understand the different formats if you even choose to pay any attention to them though. For an example, I'm playing Auger Zenith. I watched a video about it and jumping is not allowed. But GZdoom was allowing it. Is that what the "Compatibility level" setting is for? It has a list of 5 or settings like "Doom, Doom (strict), Boom etc etc".
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Jul 23, 2024 9:16:55 GMT -5
I can say for sure that most testers for DBP will often test in a port that most closely resembles vanilla Doom with the default settings, as this is better for checking for map errors than GZDoom + all the personalized configurations one might have for it. GZDoom tends to overcorrect engine bugs that some level designers utilize as features.
However, I'm of the opinion that a wad that is well designed will still be fun even if you 'break' it with jumping.
GZDoom is kind of its own game entirely, as it pretty much rewrites most of Doom's code from scratch to correct for errors and oversights in the original executable for the most solid, bug-free experience. But if people play with this source port, maybe with gameplay mods as well, this should be a valid source port to test with.
If someone were to test a DBP map and say "I can easily jump over this" it's probably best to consider that a valid criticism than to dismiss it as a negligible zdoomism. Players will always play in their preferred source port. I say this as someone who has not received much direct testing feedback from players that test in GZDoom with jumping turned on, so my maps tend to have a lot of oversights like this.
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Post by qwaz on Jul 23, 2024 9:34:39 GMT -5
What are some other ports you would recommend using?
Edit: I realize this question is probably an entire can of worms lol
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StodgyAyatollah
Doomer
I'm not here. You're just imagining things.
Posts: 485
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Post by StodgyAyatollah on Jul 23, 2024 10:39:04 GMT -5
Is that what the "Compatibility level" setting is for? It has a list of 5 or settings like "Doom, Doom (strict), Boom etc etc". Compatibility levels are for the different formats I mentioned and for different engine behaviors between the commercial games. If you've been playing Quake mods for some time you can sort of think of it as some of that games mods, particularly older ones having compatibility issues with different source ports depending on which one they were made for. With Doom many source ports try to accommodate for that by basically forcing certain engine behaviors with comp levels. The gzdoom settings are fairly inaccurate though as it's almost an entirely different engine at this point so it may break things that aren't an issue in more accurate source ports and vice versa. Also things that worked fine in older releases of gzdoom may not work properly in newer releases because of this. That's a bit of an aside though. As a casual player you can throw most things at gzdoom and not run into too many serious issues. It's generally good practice to check the readme before playing to see what source port it was tested in though. It's a little more involved than playing quake mods just because of the number of different source ports and behaviors they have. They are not linked to jumping though. That is a separate option in most source ports so a mapper could make a map in any format that still requires jumping if they want but that is fairly uncommon from my experience. So basically it can just give some insight into the mappers intent. If you find a map that is explicitly stating the use of certain formats or a comp level (-cl) then you can fairly safely assume that jumping was probably not intended. If it was the mapper will almost always make it very clear in either their readme or forum post (outside of the occasional new mapper). In the end though the overwhelming majority of maps out there are made without jumping in mind so ignoring it as a feature entirely unless it pops up as a necessity is honestly the simplest way to deal with it imo. As for ports I use DSDA-Doom almost exclusively and gzdoom only when absolutely necessary. I don't like the inaccurate feel or the bells and whistles of gzdoom, among other things. That entirely comes down to personal preference though. What you'll want to use depends on what and how you want to play. Tons of options. The video here may be of some help: 🌟 A Subjective Look at Doom Source Ports in 2024
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Jul 23, 2024 11:22:52 GMT -5
I shamelessly use prBoom-plus even though it's no longer maintained. I'm gonna second what stodgy said above about personal preference. If you like what youre playing, then don't feel compelled to change.
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Post by qwaz on Jul 23, 2024 11:47:03 GMT -5
Yeah, it will probably just take some time to get used to the different ports and what they do. In Quake, I've moved through a few different ones until finally understanding their different uses and settled on the one I prefer.
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Post by thelokk on Jul 23, 2024 18:37:47 GMT -5
Or solve all of your problems in one fell swoop and use a launcher like Hobomaster's. You can easily set up all sorts of ports and it becomes just a matter of drag and drop, no parameters nor batch files. As for me, well, back in the day I played Doom95, then once I came back I used mostly GZDoom until switching to DSDA for everything that isn't UDMF. Recently I tested a lot of vanilla stuff, so had to dig out the original exec with DosBox (a royal pain) and Chocolate. Also for some reason I don't remember at all, I used GlBoom for a while. Don't know what I was thinking. (as for Quake, I used to use Quakespasm Spiked until I switched to Ironwail full time.)
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Post by qwaz on Jul 23, 2024 18:55:22 GMT -5
Or solve all of your problems in one fell swoop and use a launcher like Hobomaster's. You can easily set up all sorts of ports and it becomes just a matter of drag and drop, no parameters nor batch files. As for me, well, back in the day I played Doom95, then once I came back I used mostly GZDoom until switching to DSDA for everything that isn't UDMF. Recently I tested a lot of vanilla stuff, so had to dig out the original exec with DosBox (a royal pain) and Chocolate. Also for some reason I don't remember at all, I used GlBoom for a while. Don't know what I was thinking. (as for Quake, I used to use Quakespasm Spiked until I switched to Ironwail full time.) I found a launcher called Doomrunner that I use and it's working pretty well so far. For Quake I used QS, then Ironwail for a while but switched to vkQuake because it supports particle/smoke effects and makes Arcane Dimensions maps look beautiful. A new version of vkQuake was just released like 2/3 weeks ago, too.
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Post by dr_st on Jul 27, 2024 2:22:17 GMT -5
I shamelessly use prBoom-plus even though it's no longer maintained. I'm gonna second what stodgy said above about personal preference. If you like what youre playing, then don't feel compelled to change. Second that. I grew up with classic Doom, and PrBoom+ gives me that experience on a modern OS, with high resolution, yet authentic-looking visuals, and good compatibility with both old and new maps. GZDoom is indeed a different game engine. It's based on Doom, and can run Doom stuff, but it's not Doom. However, someone who is joining the scene now might prefer that to the original experience. To each his own.
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