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Post by thelokk on Jun 21, 2024 11:57:56 GMT -5
Get more creative please. I'm sure being less condescending in tone would help more in encouraging them to hone their craft. Thought at first you had overcome that attitude problem of yours that got you banned, but from the last couple of posts I'm starting to have my doubts.
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BEG
I'm too young to die
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Post by BEG on Jun 21, 2024 15:51:08 GMT -5
RastaManGames Jew-Ilya was a member back in 2018, he was banned after DBP48 shitstorm and got unbanned yesterday. As much as Ilya is being a bit of a dick, I think you should be careful using "Jew" in what seems to be a hateful way. On a positive note: the project looks amazing can't wait to give it a go!
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CittyKat112
Doomer
Kitty cat one hundred and twelve
Posts: 804
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Post by CittyKat112 on Jun 21, 2024 16:22:42 GMT -5
RastaManGames Jew-Ilya was a member back in 2018, he was banned after DBP48 shitstorm and got unbanned yesterday. As much as Ilya is being a bit of a dick, I think you should be careful using "Jew" in what seems to be a hateful way. On a positive note: the project looks amazing can't wait to give it a go! He's literally jewish...
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Post by thehockster on Jun 21, 2024 17:27:41 GMT -5
Congrats on the release all, this was a fun one! Really cool credits map matador W/nice dedication! My condolences friend! Will give the whole thing a proper playthrough soon!
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40oz
diRTbAg
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Post by 40oz on Jun 21, 2024 20:04:01 GMT -5
Ok, but he's also literally joe too and joe is the name he picked so maybe just call him joe instead.
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CittyKat112
Doomer
Kitty cat one hundred and twelve
Posts: 804
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Post by CittyKat112 on Jun 21, 2024 22:29:09 GMT -5
Ok, but he's also literally joe too and joe is the name he picked so maybe just call him joe instead. Alright...
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joe-ilya
Don't quit now! We're still spending your money!
Resurrected
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Post by joe-ilya on Jun 22, 2024 4:55:23 GMT -5
FDAs for MAP06-10 : dbp66_06-10joeFDA.zip (103.56 KB) MAP06 SilverMinerFelt pretty meandry to me, being a non-linear map with no clear progression, I was lost all the time until I finally started getting keys. The lack of better weapons than chaingun/shotgun, and having to fight mid-tiers at the first half made me feel like I missed something, until I finally got my hands on a rocket launcher that I have no idea how I opened. Spawning some enemies around the red key would've really helped distinguish that I've lowered it, I couldn't tell what most of the switches do in this map. There's missing textures on the secret sink if you raise the water 3 times. MAP07 RastaManGamesThis falls into the same trap as MAP03, and other RastaManGames maps outside DBP. Their layouts are way too realistic and dull, except this one is even worse because of its symmetry and crampier spaces and damaging floors. There is nothing fun about maneuvering cramped office spaces in Doom, and I wish you'd stop making maps like that and get out of your comfort zone with more fantastical layouts. Generic building floorplan layout, cramped, repetitive door fights galore, symmetric layout; avoid these tropes. MAP08 RastaManGames A bit more variety this time, but still has most of the aforementioned tropes. MAP09 GlikkzyFresh fucking map right here, loved everything about it. Being plasma gun focused at the first half made for some enthralling gameplay that felt like I was in space wars versus aliens. From the visuals to the gameplay it is a little reminiscent to me of Doom 2 Reloaded's city maps. MAP10 CittyKat112The SSG triggers didn't activate when I picked the weapon up, and the demon that teleports at the switch didn't do a good job of showing me the little switch that opened in the SSG's spot, a mid-tier or a bigger and brighter switch would've been more appropriate. The southmost-center room has a very unclear lift, put a switch beside it. Very nice looking map. The last fight is awesome, I felt so smart getting them to infight and rushing around the cyberdemon to lower the telefragging teleporter.
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RastaManGames
Doomer
The taste of injustice is painfully disgusting. It tastes bitter and rotten.
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Post by RastaManGames on Jun 22, 2024 5:44:35 GMT -5
I wish you'd stop making maps like that and get out of your comfort zone with more fantastical layouts. That is what I am as a mapper. Consider me a braindead and boring dude that never were creative and never gonna be.
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Post by thelokk on Jun 22, 2024 7:41:31 GMT -5
I wish you'd stop making maps like that and get out of your comfort zone with more fantastical layouts. That is what I am as a mapper. Consider me a braindead and boring dude that never were creative and never gonna be. Don't take it to heart, it's joe-ilya in a nutshell and clearly has learnt nothing about going about feedback with a positive, non-demeaning attitude. You have to look past the shitty, haughty approach, and dig for the (sometimes) meaningful feedback. There is a reason why the DBP he led are generally acknowledged as an all time low in participation and quality. I personally hope with all of my might he's never given the reins again, hopefully 40oz knows better than that.
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joe-ilya
Don't quit now! We're still spending your money!
Resurrected
Posts: 2,889
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Post by joe-ilya on Jun 22, 2024 10:51:55 GMT -5
I wish you'd stop making maps like that and get out of your comfort zone with more fantastical layouts. That is what I am as a mapper. Consider me a braindead and boring dude that never were creative and never gonna be. You're neither braindead nor boring, you're just misguided about what's important in a Doom map and how it should be more abstract and not overly grounded in realism. If you're doing realistic locations, you need to make them more Doomish; make them more spacious to accommodate Doomguy's speed, and ditch the building floorplan layout in favor of a more abstract design. I've made this exact mistake in a few of my maps, and as a result I've absolutely hated them.
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Post by thelokk on Jun 22, 2024 11:09:24 GMT -5
you're just misguided about what's important in a Doom map and how it should be There is so much wrong with this statement I don't even know where to start from. RastaManGames do yourself a favor and disregard what he says. Any statement in a creative environment that contains a "should" is invalid by default and damaging.
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joe-ilya
Don't quit now! We're still spending your money!
Resurrected
Posts: 2,889
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Post by joe-ilya on Jun 22, 2024 11:32:08 GMT -5
But I told him to be more creative in this creative environment.
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Post by JadingTsunami on Jun 22, 2024 11:58:35 GMT -5
Any statement in a creative environment that contains a "should" is invalid by default and damaging. Seconded; I think this is an important point. For creative aspects of a map, it's fine to say "I would have done it this way" or "for me I felt this way about it" but not "you should have done it this way because my way is superior to yours". We are all expressing ourselves; how you express yourself and how I do may differ and that's OK in my view. I could phrase my view as, it's better to stick to the facts: "I had (this or that) experience, which was (positive or negative) for me." None of us can make any statements about universal truths in this space. We can only speak to our own experience.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2024 11:59:34 GMT -5
You're neither braindead nor boring, you're just misguided about what's important in a Doom map and how it should be more abstract and not overly grounded in realism. If you're doing realistic locations, you need to make them more Doomish; make them more spacious to accommodate Doomguy's speed, and ditch the building floorplan layout in favor of a more abstract design. I've made this exact mistake in a few of my maps, and as a result I've absolutely hated them. remember how only a few months earlier you repeated on /vr/ the exact same pattern that got you banned from doomworld in the first place? (essentially stealing a map slot by "bettering" someone else's map). it is fortunate that you're only being forward in your subjective criticism here, that's the least of your sins, but i ultimately disagree, russian style is gonna russian. your style wasn't bad either lately, idk maybe get off your high horse already (see what i did here)
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40oz
diRTbAg
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Post by 40oz on Jun 22, 2024 12:47:23 GMT -5
RastaManGames I think both of your maps are really good. The texture pack lent itself pretty well to the kind of maps I've seen you make before and I think you did an outstanding job here. The attention to detail was really good and the texture alignment was superb. Both maps were not very challenging but I think this was the right move. There's a lot to collide into, and narrow spaces to fit in, which makes the player a little more vulnerable, and difficult to control than it would in a fantastical/abstract kind of place. If you were to make the map more challenging, I think the level geometry might get in the way a lot. I also think the realism in the maps lent itself to a lot of dead-ends where a more traditional videogamey Doom map might have more looping layouts and less backtracking. I think this is the point joe is trying to get across in his review. I actually really liked exploring the little offices and imagining what it might have felt like to work here in a half-life black mesa kinda way. The places looked very believable as a moonbase installation. The maps were small and the gameplay was controlled pretty well, so it didn't demand too much time or effort to play which made for a very satisfying experience for me. One of the things I really liked about MAP08 was the part right after the yellow door. There's a window that whips open with two shotgunners behind it. When the player eventually gets there, there's an on/off switch that lets you open and close the window shutters, implying the monsters used this for the trap. This little detail has a way of making the monsters feel smarter than they actually are, which is really good level design in my opinion. I'd love to see other mappers learn from stuff like this. I don't think there's anything wrong with taking a stab at making something more abstract in a different project to exercise a different mapping muscle. You might learn a new skill that could benefit you in future maps later on. But in my opinion, I think you made all the right moves here and your maps really complimented the style and theme matador was going for. I didn't get around to playtesting all the maps in this set prior to release but after playing your maps I'm not sure I needed to because I don't really have many notes here.
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joe-ilya
Don't quit now! We're still spending your money!
Resurrected
Posts: 2,889
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Post by joe-ilya on Jun 22, 2024 12:55:35 GMT -5
I think this is an important point. For creative aspects of a map, it's fine to say "I would have done it this way" or "for me I felt this way about it" but not "you should have done it this way because my way is superior to yours". We are all expressing ourselves; how you express yourself and how I do may differ and that's OK in my view. I could phrase my view as, it's better to stick to the facts: "I had (this or that) experience, which was (positive or negative) for me." None of us can make any statements about universal truths in this space. We can only speak to our own experience. That's a given, just because I said "you should map differently" doesn't mean I'm stating a fact. That is just my opinion, but regardless, I will word myself a little better next time, I see why you'd think I'm stating a "fact".
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Post by AskYourDrAboutUVFast on Jun 22, 2024 14:49:11 GMT -5
you're just misguided about what's important in a Doom map and how it should be RastaManGames do yourself a favor and disregard what he says. Any statement in a creative environment that contains a "should" is invalid by default and damaging. I agree with your comments about joes curt and abrasive tone, but automatically walling yourself off from feedback because somebody has a strong opinion on what is important or how something should be is not helpful advice either.
In doom mapping, like much of life, advice can come from many different places (experience, wisdom, arrogance, ignorance, etc.) and we are stuck having to do our best to suss out its provenance. Just because joe's feedback may wear the cloak of arrogance due to how it is written, does not mean that there isn't wisdom or experience underneath. I agree with the feedback left by 40oz that RMG's maps were fun to play and I thought he did an exceptionally good job of utilizing the resource pack to make well detailed and believable environments. I also ran into some of the issues that joe is mentioning about cramped environments and awkward door fighting. Both things can be valid at the same time. Suggesting that one be disregarded out of hand is tossing the baby out with the bathwater.
I think if joe didn't constantly bash the mapper over the head with the negatives in the map it would come off as less arrogant and the mapper would be more receptive to taking the feedback, but I also think the moment you stop listening to feedback is the moment you stop growing as a mapper...
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CittyKat112
Doomer
Kitty cat one hundred and twelve
Posts: 804
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Post by CittyKat112 on Jun 22, 2024 15:02:22 GMT -5
MAP10 CittyKat112 The SSG triggers didn't activate when I picked the weapon up, and the demon that teleports at the switch didn't do a good job of showing me the little switch that opened in the SSG's spot, a mid-tier or a bigger and brighter switch would've been more appropriate. The southmost-center room has a very unclear lift, put a switch beside it. Very nice looking map. The last fight is awesome, I felt so smart getting them to infight and rushing around the cyberdemon to lower the telefragging teleporter. Thanks for playing, I'll change that texture with a more obvious one.
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Post by thelokk on Jun 22, 2024 15:39:32 GMT -5
I agree with your comments about joes curt and abrasive tone, but automatically walling yourself off from feedback because somebody has a strong opinion on what is important or how something should be is not helpful advice either. Rasta is free to take my advice or not, as everyone is. Personally, I'll take my chances and go where I know I won't need to wipe spit off my face to get to the beef. There is this widespread notion (borne out of that cesspool that is internet culture, and more generally being shielded by the computer screen) that descending from a heavenly cloud to provide feedback or opinions is an automatic get-out-of-jail card to be as unpleasant, dismissive and abrasive as possible, usually shielded by 4chan-like, internet tough guy subtones a la "grow a thicker skin" or "you must be able to accept criticism no matter how I present it because I'm doing you a favor." It's not exclusively a joe-ilya thing, it's an argument I had times before with other DB members as recently as DBP63, though he has been particularly culpable of this in the past, both on DB and DW. As a very new mapper back in early 2022, one of the reasons why I didn't participate in DBP44 was the fear of being set up for exactly this treatment, after perusing that thread, and others in the 40-44 range and about. Testing is always appreciated, but some people *really* need to understand that feedback is just as relevant when it's hedged with positivity and encouragement, rather than disparaging and rough language scaffolded by "I know better than you" semantic. This is particularly important in a beginner friendly project like a DBP.
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CittyKat112
Doomer
Kitty cat one hundred and twelve
Posts: 804
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Post by CittyKat112 on Jun 22, 2024 15:48:24 GMT -5
RastaManGames I think both of your maps are really good. The texture pack lent itself pretty well to the kind of maps I've seen you make before and I think you did an outstanding job here. The attention to detail was really good and the texture alignment was superb. Both maps were not very challenging but I think this was the right move. There's a lot to collide into, and narrow spaces to fit in, which makes the player a little more vulnerable, and difficult to control than it would in a fantastical/abstract kind of place. If you were to make the map more challenging, I think the level geometry might get in the way a lot. I also think the realism in the maps lent itself to a lot of dead-ends where a more traditional videogamey Doom map might have more looping layouts and less backtracking. I think this is the point joe is trying to get across in his review. I actually really liked exploring the little offices and imagining what it might have felt like to work here in a half-life black mesa kinda way. The places looked very believable as a moonbase installation. The maps were small and the gameplay was controlled pretty well, so it didn't demand too much time or effort to play which made for a very satisfying experience for me. One of the things I really liked about MAP08 was the part right after the yellow door. There's a window that whips open with two shotgunners behind it. When the player eventually gets there, there's an on/off switch that lets you open and close the window shutters, implying the monsters used this for the trap. This little detail has a way of making the monsters feel smarter than they actually are, which is really good level design in my opinion. I'd love to see other mappers learn from stuff like this. I don't think there's anything wrong with taking a stab at making something more abstract in a different project to exercise a different mapping muscle. You might learn a new skill that could benefit you in future maps later on. But in my opinion, I think you made all the right moves here and your maps really complimented the style and theme matador was going for. I didn't get around to playtesting all the maps in this set prior to release but after playing your maps I'm not sure I needed to because I don't really have many notes here. DBP65 playtest WHEN? No, this is not feedback bait, I promise.
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CittyKat112
Doomer
Kitty cat one hundred and twelve
Posts: 804
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Post by CittyKat112 on Jun 22, 2024 15:54:33 GMT -5
Stxvile is streaming this right now:
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Post by AskYourDrAboutUVFast on Jun 22, 2024 19:17:57 GMT -5
I agree with your comments about joes curt and abrasive tone, but automatically walling yourself off from feedback because somebody has a strong opinion on what is important or how something should be is not helpful advice either. Rasta is free to take my advice or not, as everyone is. Personally, I'll take my chances and go where I know I won't need to wipe spit off my face to get to the beef. There is this widespread notion (borne out of that cesspool that is internet culture, and more generally being shielded by the computer screen) that descending from a heavenly cloud to provide feedback or opinions is an automatic get-out-of-jail card to be as unpleasant, dismissive and abrasive as possible, usually shielded by 4chan-like, internet tough guy subtones a la "grow a thicker skin" or "you must be able to accept criticism no matter how I present it because I'm doing you a favor." It's not exclusively a joe-ilya thing, it's an argument I had times before with other DB members as recently as DBP63, though he has been particularly culpable of this in the past, both on DB and DW. As a very new mapper back in early 2022, one of the reasons why I didn't participate in DBP44 was the fear of being set up for exactly this treatment, after perusing that thread, and others in the 40-44 range and about. Testing is always appreciated, but some people *really* need to understand that feedback is just as relevant when it's hedged with positivity and encouragement, rather than disparaging and rough language scaffolded by "I know better than you" semantic. This is particularly important in a beginner friendly project like a DBP.
Again, I do not disagree with you about the tenor of these comments (although there is plenty of spitting going around in this thread imo). I may have picked my words poorly, and we could very well be arguing about a point we agree on here, so I'll clarify a bit. When I say negative feedback, I mean criticism of a map, not being a dick to someone for the hell of it.
What I don't agree with is dismissing the feedback or taking it as a personal attack because somebody else has a different opinion or idea of 'how something should be', even if it is in a creative endeavor. I highly doubt any one of us have never stated our opinion as a fact to someone else, so I try to exercise circumspection in casting those type of stones near my own glass house.
Lastly, I'll just roundly disagree about the whole "toughen your skin" thing. Its a good life lesson in general and certainly an idea that preexisted internet culture, 4chan, and even those contemptible computer screens that tough guys like to hide behind, as anybody who ever worked a blue collar job prior to the 90's could probably attest to.
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joe-ilya
Don't quit now! We're still spending your money!
Resurrected
Posts: 2,889
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Post by joe-ilya on Jun 23, 2024 2:16:38 GMT -5
Alright, I thought I was humorous with my remarks, but I'm just being a dick. It's a good thing the mapper which my feedback is aimed at took it in stride. But I probably won't be so lucky next time and actually put someone down like thelokk, so I better stop providing feedback this way and be more transperantly subjective.
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joe-ilya
Don't quit now! We're still spending your money!
Resurrected
Posts: 2,889
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Post by joe-ilya on Jun 24, 2024 10:07:01 GMT -5
FDAs for MAP11-15 : dbp66_11-15joeFDA.zip (109.24 KB) MAP11 killerratte CittyKat112 You two make such a great team together, everything from the gameplay to the visuals felt so consistently high quality, like it's made by a single talented person. You should team up more often. Surprisingly, not having the SSG for half the map didn't feel tedious whatsoever, and actually added some tension despite using many mid-tier enemies, having limited rockets and plasma to deal the bulk of the damage and then tightly finishing off the mid-tiers felt incredibly fulfilling, putting them in a lot of tense situations helped making them engaging rather than being used as fodder. MAP12 snowy44 Loved the freedom in here, I was playing with my head turned off and it was relaxing in a way. Everything flows together so effortlessly, despite the cybers and fat commanders threat levels, they didn't cause me much of a hitch. This must be 40oz's dream map. MAP13 matador Felt like such a lively map, so many paths and avenues to choose, craters to climb and monsters to dodge. It felt overwhelming at first, but was fun to figure it out one by one. The limited health at the Refueling Base-esque crew quarters gave me an unbelievable rush; strategizing among the sea of hitscanners and scouring for health while under the invisibility effect, and knowing you could die at a wrong move. Gosh, that was the absolute highlight of the map for me. You sure went a long way during all these DBPs, matador. From being a good mapper, to making a masterful work of art. MAP14 thelokk What is this world I've been transported into? Am I in a spaceship stuck in a gray purgatory nothingness? I sense an aerial vibration tingling through me as I'm carried into minimalistic, yet deadly encounters against hell. Do I make it to heaven? Or am I brought back to earth by the shape of hatred? MAP15 matador A civilization on the moon?! How come nobody has done this before? This totally rocks! Again, as the previous matador map, I love the verticality and the puzzley crossfire you have to figure out at the beginning. This time it's in city form and there's ladders to climb and alleyways to loot, and you know I'm a sucker for city maps. Every encounter was so creative and kept me on my toes, every time the teleporter sounds fired off I'd get excited where the monsters would be, this constant mystique is pulled off very well. Even though I died to the last fat commander, I didn't mind it because the map has great replay value with seemingly endless ways of tackling progression and every fight, and it was nice to get revenge on that sob eventually.
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SilverMiner
You're trying to say you like DOS better than me, right?
Posts: 1,251
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Post by SilverMiner on Jun 24, 2024 12:20:38 GMT -5
which version of the project was this recorded for? Demo desynced for me when you were punching a chair (rc1 map06 ~6th minute)
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