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Post by Tangra on Jun 1, 2024 0:33:39 GMT -5
I think this is a vastly different dynamic than the default straights thinking they have a right to everyone else's communities and to be unchallenged in any way. This is nonsense, 99% of every community projects were and will continue to be open to everyone. What's stopped gay people to make maps by now? Nothing, they always had the right to make the maps they want to make. The fact is, when making a Doom project, the mappers' sexuality, gender and race is irrelevant, and this is how it should be. Stuff like that should never be the focus of a community project, like there's a reason why there aren't any "straight white male" community projects... because that will be a retarded thing to do, just like having a gay project is a retarded idea. Stuff like this does not unite the community, it creates further division, and if you're too blind to see it, i can't help you, though, i can't say i'm surprised, when you can't even hold your own forum together. They left a fucking pedophile have his map on the forum, a map with a bunch of sex dungeons with dildos and whips in it, think about that for a second. And i wish he was the only human filth, who is allowed there, while others are getting banned for questioning things. Regardless of what you think, maybe you should just stay out of that one, 40oz. It doesn't suit you to defend the same people who fucked you over at the cacowards, stop acting like DW's little puppy, didn't you realize by now they don't give a shit about you?
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Post by ketmar on Jun 1, 2024 2:20:30 GMT -5
tbh, i always thought that various minorities want to fight against segregation, not for making it stronger and deeper. but various "activists" doing everything possible to segretate even further, and to play the victim card on any occasion.
i never asked people about their orientation, we just don't have any reason to talk about it. why the fuck should i care? or why the fuck should they care about mine? there is nothing to be ashamed of, it simply doesn't matter.
this is Doom, not some fuckin' eroge! Doomguy is not fucking monsters (if you're not playing HDoom, of course), and he has NO personal story in the game. also, it is very easy to play as Doomglo, even in vanilla. i believe that this solves any personal kink requirement possible.
i don't have anything against "LGBT(insert-your-preferred-letters-and-signs-here) mapping project", i simply think that it is stupid. "straight mapping project" would be equally stupid. as if somebody's orientation (or color) has something to do with the ability to draw linedefs.
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Post by ketmar on Jun 1, 2024 2:24:24 GMT -5
(of course, sometimes orientation matters. if you'll turn me upside down, i WILL have some troubles with drawing.)
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StodgyAyatollah
Doomer
I'm not here. You're just imagining things.
Posts: 504
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Post by StodgyAyatollah on Jun 1, 2024 2:50:50 GMT -5
I've talked to 40 enough that I don't think he actually cares what they think. Certainly won't lump him in with those asshats at least. Even if I think some of what he says sounds like post modernist gobbledygook at times.
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40oz
diRTbAg
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Post by 40oz on Jun 1, 2024 5:38:18 GMT -5
This is nonsense, 99% of every community projects were and will continue to be open to everyone. What's stopped gay people to make maps by now? Nothing, they always had the right to make the maps they want to make. The fact is, when making a Doom project, the mappers' sexuality, gender and race is irrelevant, and this is how it should be. Stuff like that should never be the focus of a community project, like there's a reason why there aren't any "straight white male" community projects... because that will be a retarded thing to do, just like having a gay project is a retarded idea. Stuff like this does not unite the community, it creates further division, and if you're too blind to see it, i can't help you, though, This is verifiably untrue. Maps and mappers get rejected from community projects all the time. I am overflowing with examples right now. If theres a 1024 community project and someone submits a map much larger than 1024, what's your best guess at what happens next? I dont think JPCP (Japanese Community Project) would find any reason at all to invite me to map with them. Not even being able to speak a little bit of japanese would be a really annoying obstacle for the members to need to make accomodations for. 3 Heure's D'Agonie 2 had Memfis as a guest mapper. Dean Of Doom asked "wait, isnt memfis russian?" in his review of memfis' map. I dont think he was off-base to ask this, do you? I once got rejected from participating in NOVA 2, even with a finished map ready to donate because I was told i was too experienced of a mapper, a rule that was not particularly clear to me from the project title and without prior knowledge of NOVA 1. Being straight is not an achievement that allows you into anyone's project. The reason no one has made a straights only project is because its already the norm. No one has to put rules in their project that say you have to have two hands or an ability to smell. A project leader can if they want a project without these. If its their interest to see what happens when people map without their limbs and only use 4 senses, then go for it. But youre being silly to declare youre somehow being discriminated against if youre not willing to compromise with yourself to participate under those conditions. You have to follow the project leader's rules if you expect to be someone that is uniting the community; not dividing it. If you can't do that, then that particular project is not for you. You can very easily find another one. i can't say i'm surprised, when you can't even hold your own forum together. They left a fucking pedophile have his map on the forum, a map with a bunch of sex dungeons with dildos and whips in it, think about that for a second. And i wish he was the only human filth, who is allowed there, while others are getting banned for questioning things. Regardless of what you think, maybe you should just stay out of that one, 40oz. It doesn't suit you to defend the same people who fucked you over at the cacowards, stop acting like DW's little puppy, didn't you realize by now they don't give a shit about you? it would probably serve your argument to actually look at the member profiles of the people in the linked project thread. None of them are forum moderators or write for the cacowards. I dont see any reason to address this hyperbole in any meaningful way. The specific project referred to has gay mappers in it. Those mappers are not a monolith that embodies the whole constellation of other issues the doom community has ever had, nor do they even represent the opinions of every gay person in the community and especially not elsewhere. If there are gay people that have a problem with way that project is being run, you should leave them to make their points on their own. I highly doubt theyre specifically requesting you to speak on their behalf.
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Post by Tangra on Jun 1, 2024 8:18:05 GMT -5
There is no norm 40oz, Doom wads don't have a gender or sexual orientation, and that's the end of it. By suggesting "straight" is the norm, you sound like an insane person. Also, bringing things like CP guidelines and map quality is quite desperate and has nothing to do with the problem here. Of course community projects have requirements and rules, and maps can be denied based on it, who is arguing about that? If you're not able to abide by the rules of a project, your map might get rejected, big deal, it's your own fault. These things have nothing to do with sexuality, gender and race. You, too, will never going to accept some newbie, who can barely draw a room into the Doomer Boards Projects... would that make you homophobic or racist? No, because Doom mapping has nothing to with these things and it should remain this way. Creating projects centered around sexuality, race, politics is the opposite of that and may lead to a very bad trend. Honestly, the more i read your stuff, the more i'm convinced you're just a bad troll, because some of the things you post are beyond nonsensical, very hard for me to believe that a grown person can operate and think this way. So i'm not going to bother anymore, you're not worth the trouble, and i have no desire to argue with trolls or delusional people with their heads up their asses. I was hoping you at least have the balls to actually do something about the state of this forum, but i was too naive. Surprise, surprise, after you started your little "forum revolution" thread and a bunch of people told you the truth of how useless of an admin you are, you now pretend that thread never happened, and you're back at ignoring every problem that you should be solving.
Let me elaborate on the DW thing, because you lack the ability to understand basic logic. The reason i'm calling you DW puppy, is not because i thought DW mods are part of the gay project. I called you DW puppy because you often defend DW bullshit when someone here has criticism of how things are being handled there. The existence of this project is once again a proof of bad moderation, and here you are defending it once again.
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Post by noisomedead on Jun 1, 2024 10:21:09 GMT -5
This looks like a total mountain out of a molehill to me. It's a project based on gay flag colours. A subculture (as corporatized as it has become), just like goth or metal. Does it say anywhere that straight guys cannot be involved?
DW bans people for stupid and opaque reasons, but that doesn't have anything to do with the premises of this map pack
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NuMetalManiak
Doomer
Elite Rustler (not related to Puga)
Posts: 110
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Post by NuMetalManiak on Jun 1, 2024 10:24:05 GMT -5
tbh, i always thought that various minorities want to fight against segregation, not for making it stronger and deeper. but various "activists" doing everything possible to segretate even further, and to play the victim card on any occasion. I've seen this everywhere online too. God complexes, in other words they want a rule that everything they are as a person is the strongest and non-criticizable thing, but then when someone who is inevitably different comes along, they will, dare I say it, "watch their career with great interest", and intentions can go awry at a moment's notice if someone spots even ONE thing wrong. Being an absolute control freak is the issue, and the normies in the minority group who normally side with them may just realize that being way too radical is actually hurting who they could be. I never want to be part of something self-destructive.
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StodgyAyatollah
Doomer
I'm not here. You're just imagining things.
Posts: 504
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Post by StodgyAyatollah on Jun 1, 2024 10:49:24 GMT -5
DW bans people for stupid and opaque reasons, but that doesn't have anything to do with the premises of this map pack
More than you may realize. If you prop up sacred cows in your community it's easy to man the gallows without need of a crime. I agree the focus on the project itself is a bit much. The commoner usually isn't guilty for the crimes of their lord, though occasionally complicit and frequently a tool.
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40oz
diRTbAg
Posts: 6,108
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Post by 40oz on Jun 1, 2024 11:08:51 GMT -5
Tangra Yes it is the norm. If you're straight, do any of these experiences line up with your own? 1. Spending over a decade of your childhood being confused or ashamed of yourself for being attracted to the opposite gender because adults think having the vocabulary to identify what straight even means is too mature of a topic for you. Meanwhile they spend most of those years babysitting you with lesbian disney princess movies and have no capacity to understand why that is confusing. 2. Having a childhood friend of the opposite sex that is too insecure about their own sexuality to continue being platonic friends with you after they find out you're straight. 3. Having to decide with any new friend you make whether it's best to shoe them away by being annoying and announcing you're straight too early, or developing a bond with them first and then wasting all of that time and affection when you tell them later that you're straight and they can't handle it. 4. Having to constantly make concessions to watch a movie in a theater with your friends by always settling on one that has a protagonist with a love interest you can't identify with because almost every movie protagonist ever is attracted to the same sex. Not withstanding movies that are actually good, reviewed well by peers, or worth watching. 5. Being worried that if you tell your parents you're attracted to the opposite sex they might be frightened, alarmed, disappointed or might even punish or abandon you for making them or others aware of it. 6. Growing up with an awareness that no romantic relationship you'll ever experience will allow you to biologically procreate (easily) and without costly, invasive, and potentially dangerous medical intervention. 7. Having to answer questions at work or at a dinner party about what attracts you to the opposite sex to people who either cannot grasp it or are morally opposed to accepting it as a reality -- having repeated conversations with different people who are always in the same level of awareness, and being always positioned into disproving that gay is the only thing in existence. 8. Going to a social event where same sex people hit on you, and then having to break their heart, sometimes multiple times in a day, when you tell them you're not attracted to them and then having to answer questions from drunk emotional sad-sacks like "Aren't there bars for straight people to go to instead?" 9. Sharing a neighborhood with people who openly attend churches that fund straight conversion camps; camps that enroll children in programs to manipulate straight kids into being gay out of a fear of god. Said churches have been successful since before you were born at achieving funding, influencing people to register, and convincing the government they shouldn't need to pay taxes while they do it. 10. Knowing that your political leaders today attend and donate to these churches despite, you, and others, advocating against an intertwining of church and state for hundreds of years. Do you need more examples of how our society is already centered around being straight? Gay people have to deal with this shit all the time. Just let them have a fucking doom project, fuck.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2024 11:26:02 GMT -5
Besides the fact that #10 does not actually violate the Constitution, what does any of that have to do with Doom or even this conversation? Nobody is even trying to shut the project down.
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Post by Tangra on Jun 1, 2024 11:43:40 GMT -5
Besides the fact that #10 does not actually violate the Constitution, what does any of that have to do with Doom or even this conversation? Nobody is even trying to shut the project down. He lost the plot entirely (he's good at that), it's like we're speaking different languages.
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Gokuma
You're trying to say you like DOS better than me, right?
Resident DB English Teacher
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Post by Gokuma on Jun 1, 2024 12:15:11 GMT -5
In the most epic troll move in history, the project lead blows his deep cover and releases the final project as Bundle Of Sticks Doom.
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40oz
diRTbAg
Posts: 6,108
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Post by 40oz on Jun 1, 2024 12:17:00 GMT -5
Besides the fact that #10 does not actually violate the Constitution Establishment clause "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion." We're already far beyond that. For example, holy matrimony is a religious sacrament. what does any of that have to do with Doom or even this conversation? Nobody is even trying to shut the project down. Tangra said moments ago that the mental faculties of these mappers must be compromised to have an idea for a project in which straight people aren't entitled to intervene and because of that, it shouldn't exist (less maps/mappers for Doom). I said its valid for gay mappers to make maps for Doom with other gay mappers (more maps/mappers for Doom) Can you just use ChatGPT to summarize it or something? You're making no effort to help me understand what needs explaining.
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Lobo
Doomer
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Post by Lobo on Jun 1, 2024 12:27:16 GMT -5
false dichotomies?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2024 12:34:56 GMT -5
Besides the fact that #10 does not actually violate the Constitution Establishment clause "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion." We're already far beyond that. For example, holy matrimony is a religious sacrament. what does any of that have to do with Doom or even this conversation? Nobody is even trying to shut the project down. Tangra said moments ago that the mental faculties of these mappers must be compromised to have an idea for a project in which straight people aren't entitled to intervene and because of that, it shouldn't exist (less maps/mappers for Doom). I said its valid for gay mappers to make maps for Doom with other gay mappers (more maps/mappers for Doom) Can you just use ChatGPT to summarize it or something? You're making no effort to help me understand what needs explaining. An elected official attending and donating to the church of their choice is not establishing a national or state religion, nor making a law concerning such. Defining and legislating marriage, "holy matrimony" if you will, is relegated to the states per the Tenth Amendment, so Congress has no purview there. Or shouldn't, at least. Tangra said the project shouldn't exist, which is a valid opinion. This is different than actively trying to shut the project down and not letting them "have" it.
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Post by Bob Page on Jun 1, 2024 12:36:18 GMT -5
Doom, Doom wads and video games are for everyone, everywhere. The whole idea of a gay project, like it is something that needs to exist, is fucking retarded. You hit the nail on the head here. Doom doesn't discriminate against gays, therefore there is quite literally no need for a Doom project that caters specifically to gays or any other victim class. Anyone can play Doom as long as they have a device capable of playing it. It's just another way for certain people to call attention to themselves and parade their lifestyle in front of others who, quite honestly, could not care less. It must be sad to be so in need to attention from random strangers on the internet. How about a Doom project specifically for people who are blind? Now that makes more sense, because Doom is a visual game. So maybe the levels could be heavily sound-based or something. Or a Doom project for people who can't hear, using visual clues and not having secrets that require hearing a lift activate somewhere? Or a Doom project for people with crappy computers? All of these are way better ideas than a Doom project that caters to people solely based on what they do in their bedrooms, which is irrelevant to Doom in every conceivable way. What a world we live in now. EDIT: To be fair, I didn't go look at the project in question. So I may lack context. I suppose some Doom projects are actually vehicles for political or ideological propaganda, and if that's the case with this project, then I suppose that makes more sense. Like maybe the levels all need to have a gay theme and promote gay equality or something. I just assumed that the project was designed to involve gay mappers/players, because somehow these people were barred from playing wads created by straight people.
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Post by thelokk on Jun 1, 2024 12:43:24 GMT -5
"Spending the time wasted on circular online arguments making a map for this month's DBP instead" challenge (impossible)
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api
I'm too young to die
Posts: 3
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Post by api on Jun 1, 2024 13:33:35 GMT -5
(not long time) lurker here, registered only now just to say that I totally agree with thelokk. I just imagine doomworld mods coming here just to laugh because you're losing so much time discussing about them, they made you their puppies ! Go on doing amazing stuff like the DBPs !
PS : I'm not against making inventory of some absurd behaviours in doomworld, like TimeofDeath did with the PSA of this project (whether it's a joke or not, still have difficulties to think it's no joke) but don't fucking lose yourself in bizantine arguments. PS2 : while registering, I found the welcoming question "are you banned from dw and here to complain about it?" pretty ironic...
That said, a priori, je ne fais que passer.
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40oz
diRTbAg
Posts: 6,108
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Post by 40oz on Jun 1, 2024 13:35:49 GMT -5
An elected official attending and donating to the church of their choice is not establishing a national or state religion, nor making a law concerning such. Defining and legislating marriage, "holy matrimony" if you will, is relegated to the states per the Tenth Amendment, so Congress has no purview there. Or shouldn't, at least. Tangra said the project shouldn't exist, which is a valid opinion. This is different than actively trying to shut the project down and not letting them "have" it. Look, i asked you already. I'm acting in good faith here. Ive now edited out the words "and the literal words of the written U.S. constitution" from: 10. Knowing that your political leaders today attend and donate to these churches despite, you, others, and the literal words of the written U.S. constitution advocating against an intertwining of church and state for hundreds of years. to: 10. Knowing that your political leaders today attend and donate to these churches despite, you, and others advocating against an intertwining of church and state for hundreds of years. Have we gotten any closer to understanding what this has to do with Doom or not? I'm willing to fill you in where you need assistance, but please take the time to think about what you dont understand before you follow up.
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Post by Tangra on Jun 1, 2024 13:36:40 GMT -5
You're spot on. It's what i'm trying to explain to 40oz, but it seem like a lost cause at this point.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2024 13:56:27 GMT -5
Have we gotten any closer to understanding what this has to do with Doom or not? I'm willing to fill you in where you need assistance, but please take the time to think about what you dont understand before you follow up. I need assistance figuring out why you're trying to turn the tables in such a weird fashion, but here is the best play-by-play I can give you: 1. I pointed out that the behavior you are attributing to straight people ("I think this is a vastly different dynamic than the default straights thinking they have a right to everyone else's communities and to be unchallenged in any way.") is being demonstrated by the organizers of this project in the form of a giant PSA in their post clearly stating that they must be unchallenged in any way. 2. You explained the context of what you meant, which I understood and to a certain degree agreed with. 3. You dropped the Top 10 Struggles of the Gay Person in America in response to Tangra's opining about how integrating sexuality, race, politics and other issues are always going to be divisive and are generally a bad idea for Doom community projects. 4. I asked you how any of that was relevant to Doom or the conversation. 5. After a brief disagreement about the Constitution, you asked me how any of this was relevant to Doom or the conversation.
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40oz
diRTbAg
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Post by 40oz on Jun 1, 2024 14:41:54 GMT -5
3. You dropped the Top 10 Struggles of the Gay Person in America in response to Tangra's opining about how integrating sexuality, race, politics and other issues are always going to be divisive and are generally a bad idea for Doom community projects. 4. I asked you how any of that was relevant to Doom or the conversation. It was to articulate that straight people centering themselves in the subject of the conversation is the division. Just as japanese community projects, russian doom community projects, french community projects, or even projects centered around a particular style or creative limitation can exist in their own vacuums for the greater good of the Doom community, It only becomes a problem when 1. non-japanese people tell Japanese people their projects don't need to exist 2. non-russian people tell russian people their projects don't need to exist 3. non-french people tell french people their projects don't need to exist 4. mapping example: non-1024 mappers tell 1024 project mappers that their project should have bigger maps Tangra is stating that any doom project is, effectively already inclusive of japanese, russian, and french people anyway, and by extension, gay people too. (I'm not willing to ignore that the other groups have not received quite the same treatment as gay mappers are here in this conversation.) Presumably these mappers can and should just independently disperse into random community projects that would accept them, preferably with their racial identity unknown to anyone. If that were the case, our doom history timeline would have voids where the Whitemare's, the 3 heures d'agonies, or japanese community projects are. Claiming to be all-inclusive, whether you are deliberately stating it, or infering it in some quietly unarticulated way both only get you so far. I have not, and never will, create a rule for this forum that you can't share guitar tabs for a song you wrote, but that doesn't make it any less reasonable that someone with guitar tabs to share would go to ultimate-guitar.com's forums to post them there instead of here at doomer boards. People like to feel welcomed. If someone is gay and wants to map, they will inadvertently be faced with the DEFAULT of participating in a doom project that's more likely than not to be made up of 90% or more straight people. That's fine if the gay mapper wants to subject themselves to that. But to suggest that there's something inherently wrong with people finding a collective to identify with is saying something different than what is proposed above. What is really being said is it disturbs the entitlement of the majority -- entitlement being the desired outcome that everything the majority could ever possibly imagine participating in will always be welcoming to them at the expense of others that exist outside of the majority. In any situation, their demographic will always remain the majority. It's power -- it validates populist movements, it secures your vote in any kind of democratic decision, and those that participate in any doom project without their groups with them will always lose. Having to lose a little bit of your entitlement to participate in everything with the authority to guide how it proceeds is an entirely different problem than people of a similar group wanting to find each other and create content together in public where you can see it. This is why "straights-only" doom community project is not analagous to "gay-only" doom project.
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CittyKat112
Doomer
Kitty cat one hundred and twelve
Posts: 804
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Post by CittyKat112 on Jun 1, 2024 15:01:34 GMT -5
3. You dropped the Top 10 Struggles of the Gay Person in America in response to Tangra's opining about how integrating sexuality, race, politics and other issues are always going to be divisive and are generally a bad idea for Doom community projects. 4. I asked you how any of that was relevant to Doom or the conversation. It was to articulate that straight people centering themselves in the subject of the conversation is the division. Just as japanese community projects, russian doom community projects, french community projects, or even projects centered around a particular style or creative limitation can exist in their own vacuums for the greater good of the Doom community, It only becomes a problem when 1. non-japanese people tell Japanese people their projects don't need to exist 2. non-russian people tell russian people their projects don't need to exist 3. non-french people tell french people their projects don't need to exist 4. mapping example: non-1024 mappers tell 1024 project mappers that their project should have bigger maps These community projects naturally came into existence because they are made by doomers from other countries which have their own communities and forums, you'd have to be able to speak their language to join them and I'm sure as shit they wouldn't exclude you for simply not being russian or japanese (hence why Memfis participated in that french community project). Also bold of you as a straight guy talking on behalf of homosexuals and how they feel. Pretending any sane person would think 'UGHHHH, wish there was a mapping project for gay black people only, this new speedmapping CP probably consists mostly of white guys goddammit' is peak retardation even by leftist standards.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2024 15:07:48 GMT -5
Subject themselves to WHAT, exactly? That's the whole point of most people's sentiments. If you join a DOOM mapping project and are having to have discussions about your sexuality, then something is already off-kilter.
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