good-old
Doomer
18 year old dumb kid.
Posts: 421 
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Post by good-old on May 16, 2023 10:10:49 GMT -5
Thanks to dr_st for comparing the two in the "Any Doom thoughts" which brought up this topic in the first place.
Which do you think is the better game?
[Removed the crappy list, I don't think it was a good idea]
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good-old
Doomer
18 year old dumb kid.
Posts: 421
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Post by good-old on May 16, 2023 10:14:05 GMT -5
SilverMiner's post in the "Any Doom thoughts" thread: Duke Nukem 3d weapons are garbage: the pistol is like fast pea shooter the shotgun is worse than that in Doom 3 (2 times weaker, and inaccurate) the chaingun is weak the rocket launcher is ok, its explosion radius is garbage shrinker is slow the only good weapon is the one that shoots small missiles the enemy roster as I remember it: duke the one with lasers pig chaingunner the one who scratches monkey shark slime octopus second boss third boss doom zombe shotgun imp lost soul cacodemon baron demon cyber spider duke outnumbers doom indeed. duke's enemies make impression of meat shields tbh the green in palette is just vomit the blue is bleh the engine is good cuz it renders the world without bsp and is written in C and ASM but the code is barely readable modding tools never feel like all in one never started mapping, but ran mapster 1 or 2 times I feel it's bad that could-be-a-good game Redneck Rampage derived the vomit colors, weapons weakness and monster beefness Reply: Every rapid fire weapon in any game can be called a "fast pea shooter" lmao The shotgun is not weak if you use it against the right enemies. I think you consider it weak because you use it too much against the stronger enemies such as the Assault Commander and the Mini Battlelord. The chaingun is quite similar to the Doom chaingun. Both of them are not the strongest weapon ever but they can "stunlock" most enemies. The rocket launcher(rpg) may use a little increase in blast radius, but boy, it can obliterate most things in its radius. Shrinker is a broken weapon if you use it against the enemies which it is best used against, that is the stronger enemies, again, like the Assault Commander and Mini Battlelord. Saves a ton of other ammo and sometimes succeeds in trivialising otherwise difficult fights. That weapon you're talking about it is the Devastator. Yes, it is a good weapon against almost all enemies. You forgot the probable most unique and iconic weapon in the game, the Pipebomb! Tossing one of them around a corner and blowing it up to kill all the monsters before they even see your face is one of the most fun things in any FPS ever. There's the Freezethrower and Expander. Their ammo cap is too low to make it a regular usable weapon, and they're mostly "fun" weapons. There's the Laser Tripbomb too. Just attach it to a wall, alert some enemies, and watch their dumb asses walk into your trap. About monsters, oh well, Doom's outnumber Duke Nukem's if you count Doom 2's and Duke Nukem Atomic Edition's. However the monsters themselves are much more unique than the ones in Doom. In a different thread a long while ago, ivandobrovski wrote a nice rundown of all the Duke Nukem enemies. I think he does a good job at explaining this. doomer.boards.net/post/35691/threadThe colour palette, well, it's subjective, but I do prefer Doom's over Duke Nukem's. Can't say anything about the engine cause well, I haven't gotten into programming yet. Can't say anything about the mapping tools either cause I never used them to create useless stuff like I did with Doom's. I'm yet to play Redneck Rampage to opine on it, so I can't say anything about that either. |
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skyr
Doomer
pocket full of rocket fuel and pyramid stones
Posts: 264
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Post by skyr on May 16, 2023 10:20:55 GMT -5
I've only played duke nukem for like 5 min, I dont even remember which game it was, but it allowed me to give money to a stripper, +1 for duke nukem
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Gokuma
You're trying to say you like DOS better than me, right?
Resident DB English Teacher
Posts: 1,208
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Post by Gokuma on May 17, 2023 15:34:02 GMT -5
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Post by optimus on May 18, 2023 1:18:01 GMT -5
Doom is more replayable, with all the mods and the kinda better movement/shooting/gameplay feeling. Duke3D might have more unique weapons and interactivity, verticality and all good features, but something feels off sometimes with the build engine games shooting, maybe harder enemies (especially those hitscanners in blood). It just doesn't play the same.
But, there are things I adore in the build engine games and are way more unique than Doom. First, the atmosphere. There are some map designs, that create such earie atmosphere, but it might be 1) the dark lighting is more sharp, 2) the addition of ambient sounds, 3) the verticality, underwater, flying, mysterious cracked walls you can break and other. That's why I want to revisit once again maps from Duke3D or Blood. Secondly the music. Third I forget, but a lot of the new features added, Build engine is way more interesting than Quake in the gameplay/vis/audio aspects added.
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xeepeep
Banned
Forever
Posts: 2,338 
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Post by xeepeep on May 18, 2023 2:20:59 GMT -5
Duke Nukem was so real for saying "don't have time to play with myself" in that arcade room in the first or second level. When I was 15 I didn't know what he meant lol.
I've never had the urge to replay duke though. Doom is a lot more fast-paced and hectic
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dn
Body Count: 02
the motherfucking darknation
Posts: 1,762
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Post by dn on May 18, 2023 3:06:08 GMT -5
Guess you kids don't remember how mind-blowing Duke 3D's environments were: remember that discussion about how E1M1 looks fuck all like a Hanger? Of how doom's maps are surreal, cubist nightmares that *occasionally* include a sector that may or may not be a computer terminal?
Remember those fucking awful city maps in doom 2?
Yeah, Duke3D days fuck that. The strip club actually looks like a strip club. The cities look like someplace people could actually live in. That was unprecedented at the time.
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SilverMiner
You're trying to say you like DOS better than me, right?
Posts: 1,342
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Post by SilverMiner on May 18, 2023 3:51:16 GMT -5
About monsters, oh well, Doom's outnumber Duke Nukem's if you count Doom 2's and Duke Nukem Atomic Edition's. However the monsters themselves are much more unique than the ones in Doom. In a different thread a long while ago, ivandobrovski wrote a nice rundown of all the Duke Nukem enemies. I think he does a good job at explaining this. doomer.boards.net/post/35691/threadDidn't notice many of that stuff when had played it, thanks |
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Post by dr_st on May 18, 2023 15:48:29 GMT -5
The biggest thing the Build engine did right, IMO, is the fake room-over-room via silent teleporter lines. It gives way more freedom to design, including but not limited to underwater areas. This was borrowed by Boom later, I believe.
The next nicest thing are movable/destructible sectors, enabling vehicles, massive explosions changing level layout etc.
Slopes and colored lighting are also nice, but less critical, IMO.
One of the nice side-effects of the way the engine works is the ability of two sectors to occupy the same physical coordinates in space. This enables crazy design like the center hub in Tier Drops (E3L10) which takes you to a different room depending on the direction you enter it from, and my personal favorite - the 720-degree circle (two complete paths overlapping) in Lunatic Fringe (E2L11), which apparently was also implemented in E5L01.
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Lobo
Doomer
Posts: 594
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Post by Lobo on May 18, 2023 16:42:26 GMT -5
The enforcer randomly shits? Didn't notice that!
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SilverMiner
You're trying to say you like DOS better than me, right?
Posts: 1,342
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Post by SilverMiner on May 19, 2023 0:13:43 GMT -5
The enforcer randomly shits? Didn't notice that! me too |
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StodgyAyatollah
Doomer
I'm not here. You're just imagining things.
Posts: 504
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Post by StodgyAyatollah on May 19, 2023 1:18:35 GMT -5
Duke 3D was awesome as a kid. Aping all the movies it did. The strippers and childish humor. Some of the more creative weapons. The environments being a sort of evolution of the Doom cute aesthetic with tons of prop sprites. An effort to create believable spaces. I played the hell out of it. Going back though it's a bit janky and the build engine shows it's flaws. Who else remembers being gibbed by doors back in the day? I think Doom holds up better for a couple reasons. First the gameplay is more straightforward since it's generally played in a more 2D manner on mostly flat planes. Makes it more arcadey and easy to get into whereas Duke's more 3d based movement is someone clunky. The second being the abstract use of spaces which allows the environment to facilitate the gameplay instead of the gameplay having to work around the environment. Still love Duke though and the build engine trilogy are probably right behind Doom and Quake for me when it comes to the pinnacle of fps goodness but they have a lot of "hey, let's put this in the game" type stuff where id was almost singularly focused on the engine and the gameplay.
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Gokuma
You're trying to say you like DOS better than me, right?
Resident DB English Teacher
Posts: 1,208
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Post by Gokuma on May 19, 2023 7:57:48 GMT -5
Duke Nukem 3D's more realistic environments with various features was a great step. Unfortunately the enemies always seemed so lifeless, flat, and still, despite however many frames, actually having more points of view, and more varied behavior. They're well drawn but the animation just isn't as robust and lively as Doom's. Some animators however skilled don't always make enough of a difference between frames.
The worst problem with Duke is that even in the 20th Anniversary World Tour edition, twenty freaking years later, they still haven't fixed the instagib wall clipping glitch where your greatest enemy is the most plain flat wall or ordinary door. Hopefully the source port Raze and others may fix that though. I think modem games tended to desync more in Duke 3D as well. Never got around to trying any network multiplayer.
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Post by dr_st on May 19, 2023 14:33:34 GMT -5
The worst problem with Duke is that even in the 20th Anniversary World Tour edition, twenty freaking years later, they still haven't fixed the instagib wall clipping glitch where your greatest enemy is the most plain flat wall or ordinary door. "Duke Dead Quick" FTW. I think modem games tended to desync more in Duke 3D as well. Never got around to trying any network multiplayer. I've played several times with a friend or two via DOSBox's IPX emulation. Setting it up and getting it to connect can often be super-frustrating (especially with >2 players), but once connected it rarely de-synched, unless the network connection itself degraded significantly. |
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Post by hex11 on May 25, 2023 9:26:08 GMT -5
> Remember those fucking awful city maps in doom 2?
Those were pretty basic and abstract compared to Duke, although still pretty fun to play. But yeah, Duke does that kind of detailed stuff better.
That said, some of the 90's vanilla wads managed to make impressive city maps. Dark Covenant episode for Doom II had several good ones. There were even a few older ones that were pretty cool, like Deimos Subway, and Docking Crater Alpha. Ok that last one's not a city but it's got interesting stuff like bathrooms and pool tables. Granted, you can't "play" those pool tables like in Duke, but they still set the mood.
Also other 90's vanilla wads like School Doom (by Pupils of the Cyberdemon) show that you can create a convincing environment with just some new sprites, textures, and sounds. You don't need a whole new game engine for that. But when Sandy and the rest of the crew made Doom II, they didn't have time for that, they had to pump out 32 levels on a deadline, and so never got to explore the full potential.
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40oz
diRTbAg
Posts: 6,105
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Post by 40oz on May 25, 2023 10:33:59 GMT -5
It's my understanding that the "Hell on Earth" part of Doom 2's title and accompanying storyline text interludes that appear in different parts of the 30 level campaign were kinda tacked on as an afterthought.
Doom 2 came out within a year of Doom 1 and I think was mostly meant to make use of excess resources that were originally meant for Doom 1, such as a bunch of unfinished levels and the revenant and mancubus models.
I don't really believe that Doom 2 had much of a thematic design direction. If I had to guess, I think Adrian Carmack was given some loose directions to add some more 'real world' textures (the new Doom 2 patches start with 'RW' in the lumpnames) to use for Doom 2, so they got some generic wood, bricks, and grass and the mappers went to town with it.
If Doom 2 went a few steps further and told Adrian they needed trashcan props, streetlights, and a couple extra building facades with windows, the city levels would be much more convincing. It's actually kinda hard to make a believable city that actually looks lived in using stock Doom 2 textures only. Sandy seems to think of his levels from more of a calculated tabletop boardgame approach than a level designer or environmental artist. The overhead view for MAP13: Downtown looks pretty cool and it was a neat idea, but obviously it's severely lacking in definition and interactivity.
Duke Nukem's city levels (Hollywood Holocaust and Red Light District are first to come to mind) do not offer a whole lot that makes them wholly different than traditional Doom levels other than a dedicated urban skin, props you would see in a city, and things that do stuff or make Duke talk when you use them.
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SilverMiner
You're trying to say you like DOS better than me, right?
Posts: 1,342
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Post by SilverMiner on May 25, 2023 11:49:32 GMT -5
the new Doom 2 patches start with 'RW' in the lumpnames I thought RW meant 'Registered Wall' (with 'registered' meaning that the version of doom is registered) |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2023 15:08:56 GMT -5
Dunno, couldn't really get into DN3D, Build Engine makes everything look like it's a cardboard cutout, and the sounds are so tinny and grating... I dig Doom more precisely because it's more abstract.
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StodgyAyatollah
Doomer
I'm not here. You're just imagining things.
Posts: 504
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Post by StodgyAyatollah on May 26, 2023 22:03:43 GMT -5
I don't really believe that Doom 2 had much of a thematic design direction. If I had to guess, I think Adrian Carmack was given some loose directions to add some more 'real world' textures (the new Doom 2 patches start with 'RW' in the lumpnames) to use for Doom 2, so they got some generic wood, bricks, and grass and the mappers went to town with it. I recall Sandy talking about the process somewhere. If my memory is right the way he described it they were essentially just doing their own thing and making textures for mappers based on what the mappers were using and what they were doing with them. Sort of "hey look, American is doing good work with these kind of textures, lets make more stuff like that for him to use". The process for Duke 3D was probably a lot more of the traditional "I'm making a map of this and need these assets". |
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Gokuma
You're trying to say you like DOS better than me, right?
Resident DB English Teacher
Posts: 1,208
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Post by Gokuma on May 28, 2023 13:01:55 GMT -5
the new Doom 2 patches start with 'RW' in the lumpnames I thought RW meant 'Registered Wall' (with 'registered' meaning that the version of doom is registered) Close but no cigar. In the Romero resource dump, Doom 2 walls are in the subfolders, walls\retail. Doom 1 before Ultimate was registered. Doom 2 was retail. Ultimate Doom was also retail but I think the only texture it added was sky4. |
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