40oz
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Post by 40oz on Mar 25, 2022 20:24:52 GMT -5
What if there was an announcement that somewhere down the line, the DBP that's being made here was going to be a "political" themed dbp.
1. If you had to guess, what do you think DOOM PLAYERS OUTSIDE OF DOOMERBOARDS would speculate what the dbp would actually be about?
2. What do YOU think a "political" themed dbp SHOULD be about?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2022 21:12:44 GMT -5
If you're going to do a politically-themed DBP, I would vote for something more light-hearted and funny. Like maybe take humorous elements of recent political theater on BOTH sides of the aisles and makes jokes out of those that somehow tie in with Doom.
Maybe the Mancubus could be altered to look like Trump, since people on the left love calling him fat(even though fat shaming is bad according to them). Perhaps the Revenant could be altered to look like Nancy Pelosi. You could put MAGA hats on Chaingunners and make them into Trump supporters. Zombiemen and Sergeants could be altered to act as AntiFa members. And Pain Elemental could become Pandemic Elemental, belching Lost Souls that have been converted into oversized Covid-19 virus particles.
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kvsari
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Post by kvsari on Mar 25, 2022 21:24:40 GMT -5
Wat? I thought we did these just for fun. Bringing in politics may unfun the fun. To answer your question though; I'd explore George Orwell's warnings about the destruction of language.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2022 21:36:29 GMT -5
Wat? I thought we did these just for fun. Bringing in politics may unfun the fun. To answer your question though; I'd explore George Orwell's warnings about the destruction of language. I tend to agree with this. My response was basically, "If you are absolutely dead-set on doing it, then here's my take." But yeah, it's likely an idea that wouldn't end well. As unfortunate as it is, most people can't step back and laugh about politics.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2022 21:38:11 GMT -5
What if there was an announcement that somewhere down the line, the DBP that's being made here was going to be a "political" themed dbp. 1. If you had to guess, what do you think DOOM PLAYERS OUTSIDE OF DOOMERBOARDS would speculate what the dbp would actually be about? 2. What do YOU think a "political" themed dbp SHOULD be about? 1. Probably about how we're all nazi chuds who want to kill feminists, LGBT people, and people of color. 2. I feel like if a politically-charged DBP is going to exist (and I'm iffy on this because I'm not certain how well it could be pulled off) it should revolve around the theme of censorship of transgressive art -- a challenge and riposte to the organizations, movements, and people, antiquated and modern, that threaten to stifle open and honest artistic expression. Things like the Hayes Code, the Comics Code Authority, the PMRC, the Satanic Panic, the Red Scare, the movement of Soviet Realism, the YA authors who shouted down and forced Isabel Fall to detransition over her short story, etc. etc. Doom itself (and really, classic id Software in general) is tied deeply to the history of artistic censorship. I think the best way to make a Doom WAD with a political message is to grab ahold of that lodestar. Perhaps a metacommentary involving the Satanic Panic? Maybe the handgun gets replaced with the Konami Justifier that Joe Lieberman held at that one senate hearing?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2022 23:04:00 GMT -5
My personal take is "don't make something political for the sake of just making something political". If you want it to fly, you would want to make something you actually want to express, with the art being a vessel for such expression. Impie didn't make his "Dynamite Duchess" for the sake of just pissing DW staff, he was legitimately distressed with the handling of pandemic, so he first wrote a novel, then realized it would rather work as a game. The political message was fully formed in his head before the idea of making a wad came to exist.
This is just my speculative opinion, however - it may be proven to be false.
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Post by lunchlunch on Mar 25, 2022 23:25:10 GMT -5
Outsiders would assume the worst, obviously. So would I, in the sense that the idea of injecting politics into things for the sake of itself makes me cringe. I don't think it could be anything but embarrassing to put out a propaganda WAD, whatever the message. Barely coherent/related tangent incoming: Honestly, I don't care enough about politics at all, and when conversations turn that way, my only input comes from the occasional compulsion to ridicule those that do care. Not for any grandiose, nuanced reasons, I'm just A) a dumbass, B) apathetic about most matters outside myself, and C) easily amused by prodding the self-serious. Freedom of expression is really the only political ideal I'd say I care about. In this way, I suppose Hard Fast Faggot Maps could be seen as a political WAD. I don't see it that way necessarily but if you're enough of a reductionist to boil every conversation about free speech (for or against) down to discussing whether or not there's ever an acceptable context to using slurs, then it becomes political in that way. HFFM was an abrasive title but with just a tiny bit of digging into the context and intent, it becomes clear to any sane person that the whole thing was a ridiculous inside joke brought about by a word cloud generator, made with genuine love and care. You don't have to like it or "approve" of it or find it funny, but it very clearly wasn't about hate. Freedom of expression is really the only political ideal I'd say I care about, and not even for political reasons but for artistic ones. Ever since I was a kid, I was compelled by lowbrow art, probably just because I was so sheltered. The sort of shocking transgressiveness I'd find in a MAD magazine while unsupervised at the grocery store just tickled me. I kept a borrowed copy of Conker's Bad Fur Day below my dresser that I could only play while my parents were gone. These sorts of naughty things with foul language and crude humor always amused me, but I knew that my mother would never understand it and I would be punished if I were caught with these things. The context and intent would never matter to people like my mother. A landmark in my teenage years was when I read William S Burroughs' Naked Lunch, a novel written by a heroin-addicted beatnik, that was beyond anything I ever imagined a piece of art, let alone a boring old book, could be. A book that blended science fiction with detective stories, but nightmarish and paranoid, all about lunatics and baboons escaping asylums and wreaking havoc, a man who taught his asshole to talk, the grotesque Mugwumps that raped children, a sadistic back-alley abortionist with his mad schemes, all of it absolutely insane, taking place in the INTERZONE, which may or may not exist inside the upper portion of a baboon's asshole... It was horrific, and wrong, and oddly enough it was very funny and absolutely fascinating. There's no room for morality with lowbrow art, this sort of juvenile trash that I enjoy goes straight through the 'super-ego' and directly to the 'id.' There's an interview with underground comix artist Robert Crumb that really informs my personal philosophy about art, where he says, "I have a compulsion to reveal the truth about myself, for better or worse[...] maybe it's just about, you can put a noble slant on it, you can say you want to tell the truth [...] there's also in you, the thing that if you reveal this, you're going to take the heat for it, but everyone can see it and know it's out there, and now we know, now we know[...] Somebody's gotta lay this out. It's like there's this shit underneath that people just don't wanna confront. And I just put it out there, this whole paranoia, you know, put it in a comic, yeah, you know it's a little bit exaggerated, I'm not actually promoting those ideas[...] Playing with those kind of images, those kind of racist images and that, the key word there is "play," and some people think that that's not right, you shouldn't play with those images, you know, it's too hurtful. But you know, what can I say?[...] Somebody has to put it out there[...]."
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2022 23:28:22 GMT -5
Make sure some of you won't post this on DW from Moscow. Because, you know, some DW mod or even admin could make public your location and assume you are putinist because "all russians are putinists".
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Mar 25, 2022 23:30:57 GMT -5
ftr, this is all hypothetical for me, I don't actually want to do this. It's just a weird brain exercise.
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joe-ilya
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Post by joe-ilya on Mar 26, 2022 0:20:19 GMT -5
There's already Thatcher's Techbase, and the Moon Man mod, this would just look like we're riding a popular trend
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matador
You're trying to say you like DOS better than me, right?
I feel asleep.
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Post by matador on Mar 26, 2022 0:31:29 GMT -5
Was this inspired by the Doomworld thread about controversial WADs that dmslr is alluding to? I agree with everyone else that a political DBP would be a very bad idea. We're ideologically diverse enough that any sort of deliberate political messaging is going to alienate at least one mapper, not to mention it'll definitely alienate some of our players. Frankly, I'm against anything of this sort in DBPs, regardless of which "side" the message comes from. Plus, once something gets political, it's always going to have that stigma attached to it, even if subsequent DBPs aren't political people will view them that way. A "show both sides" type of political WAD wouldn't work either because people will see one side being favored over the other, even if that wasn't the intent.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2022 5:01:36 GMT -5
Wat? I thought we did these just for fun. Bringing in politics may unfun the fun. To answer your question though; I'd explore George Orwell's warnings about the destruction of language. Oh yeah, a 1984-styled WAD would probably work really well, or any similar "dystopian" setting. A WAD with "actual current" politics and political figures portrayed will never work well; it needs that "generic" setting to pull it off, otherwise it's just going to be in bad taste regardless of being left or right-themed.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2022 6:40:57 GMT -5
Actually, a wad with custom textures reminiscent of Wolfenstein ones but with Putler/Putin instead of Hitler could work. And "Z" letter rotated to look more like a swastika it is based on, replacing swastika. Zombie humans are undead Russian putinists instead, monsters need not to be edited, cause all this party belongs in hell anyway.
The idea of course is satirical (rather than honest) depiction, just like with Wolfenstein, although this time it's not the original Nazis, but the Putin's regime after they all went to hell together with their dictator. Of course, the setting better NOT be Ukraine, as it would look like trivializing the real life conflict.
One can also make sounds from Russian propaganda play in background (via hidden sprites + deh) or something.
I have no idea what Doomworld's reaction to this will be.
EDIT: Optionally, propaganda could play from TV sets, radios or whatever, which be destructible and also counted towards kills, so you need to destroy propaganda outlets as well to get 100% kills.
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MegaPancakeStrategist
You're trying to say you like DOS better than me, right?
IF YOU ARE READING THIS YOUR MAP NEEDS MORE LIGHTING VARIATION
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Post by MegaPancakeStrategist on Mar 26, 2022 8:53:46 GMT -5
Wat? I thought we did these just for fun. Bringing in politics may unfun the fun. To answer your question though; I'd explore George Orwell's warnings about the destruction of language. Ah yes the language control is quite evil indeed. Oh yeah, a 1984-styled WAD would probably work really well, or any similar "dystopian" setting. A WAD with "actual current" politics and political figures portrayed will never work well; it needs that "generic" setting to pull it off, otherwise it's just going to be in bad taste regardless of being left or right-themed. Not to mention it would age like milk. Those 90s WADs with Bill Clinton pictures I didn't understand at all (I wasn't even born yet when they were made) so the only context I had was a helpful comment or two from the idgames review section. If it's "generic" enough in setting but the themes can always be relevant it can apply to situations from today and other points in time. I don't know how successful Dynamite Duchess was in this regard. I blame those covid lockdowns for a lot....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2022 9:35:31 GMT -5
I don't see wad aging any worse unless politics is the only thing of value. Honestly, few wads are played more than once or are held in high regard a decade later.
But, without any passion from creators, a political wad may start low enough on release.
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Justince
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Post by Justince on Mar 26, 2022 9:51:38 GMT -5
Why not, give more people a reason to hate it and not play it. Keep your retarded politics out of Doom.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2022 11:47:54 GMT -5
Humm there always going to be a little tad of politics in human affairs, let alone in art - how serious the artist and/or the audience are going to take it, well that's another story. Everything has consequences, so one should be ready to deal with them or take the opportunity to learn how to do so. I mean, it's borderline unavoidable. Even something apparently as neutral as a Blade Runner themed project has so much politics in the foundation of it's universe that if one decides to take a serious dichotomous stance against what the player is supposed to "accept" or "take for granted" just for booting it up the game.. well, the said person won't be playing the damn thing at all - and for having such low tolerance when dealing with dissident views, even in fiction form, the person will end up just looking like a clown bloviating nonsense at the wind. I say yay for a political themed DBP. Bob, kvsari and segfault had provided some good brainstorming so far. As for the ageing issue, idk.. i don't think that listening to something like Suicidal Tendencies' I Shoot the Devil in 2022 aged like milk, nor anything from RAtM catalog for example - if anything it might encourage the listener to go back and research the past from a different perspective, do some cross-references about the topics and ultimately confront your own bias. Or you know, one might just feel some cringe shivering down the spine. And what's wrong with that? A little dose of cringe never killed anyone, right?
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joe-ilya
Hey, Ron! Can we say 'fuck' in the game?
a simple word, a simple turd
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Post by joe-ilya on Mar 26, 2022 13:50:08 GMT -5
I have the perfect political DBP theme :
Romero's Irish Castles
White lush castles set in Ireland, with Romero's face on colorful glass mosaics, on flags and on walls to resemble his ego. Each map would end with a safe full of money.
The story would be like Robbin Hood's; Romero selfishly made One Humanity to crowdfund money for the Ukraine Red Cross to boost his image instead of donating some of his own huge sum of money. The crowdfunding raised way less than 100,000$ when he could've easily donated 1 million dollars from his ~20 million net worth, when our hero finds out about this he decides to raid his castles' safes, kill Romero, and donate all his money to the Ukrainian Red Cross.
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nnn✓ork
Doomer
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Post by nnn✓ork on Mar 26, 2022 16:14:02 GMT -5
1. A wad where you kill John Romero, led by 40oz and Joe-Ilya (so, basically the plot of Doom 2)
2. But then the wad gets released and is actually a wad where you kill 40oz, led by Vigilante
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Mar 26, 2022 16:16:23 GMT -5
1. A wad where you kill John Romero, led by 40oz and Joe-Ilya (so, basically the plot of Doom 2) 2. But then the wad gets released and is actually a wad where you kill 40oz, led by Vigilante LOL
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Post by mayhemicdestrvctor on Mar 26, 2022 16:39:17 GMT -5
lets make a wad where u have to kill russians , and at the end there is putin and he is the final boss
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MegaPancakeStrategist
You're trying to say you like DOS better than me, right?
IF YOU ARE READING THIS YOUR MAP NEEDS MORE LIGHTING VARIATION
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Post by MegaPancakeStrategist on Mar 26, 2022 17:03:26 GMT -5
Let's not do that haha
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Post by mayhemicdestrvctor on Mar 26, 2022 17:29:58 GMT -5
ok maybe
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Gokuma
You're trying to say you like DOS better than me, right?
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Post by Gokuma on Mar 27, 2022 15:09:30 GMT -5
My personal take is "don't make something political for the sake of just making something political". If you want it to fly, you would want to make something you actually want to express, with the art being a vessel for such expression. Impie didn't make his "Dynamite Duchess" for the sake of just pissing DW staff, he was legitimately distressed with the handling of pandemic, so he first wrote a novel, then realized it would rather work as a game. The political message was fully formed in his head before the idea of making a wad came to exist. This is just my speculative opinion, however - it may be proven to be false.
Here's a link if anyone's interested since it was banned and deleted on both DW and Zdoom forums.
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Post by mayhemicdestrvctor on Mar 27, 2022 18:14:08 GMT -5
doomworld is really dumbfor deleting that
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