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Post by lunchlunch on Mar 5, 2022 18:51:42 GMT -5
xvertigox That may be the case. Maybe not. I'm not against Ukraine, I'm against paying for a DOOM map, made by anybody for any reason. Simple as.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2022 18:58:16 GMT -5
That is a good point.
I think a no minimum, optional, donation would've worked better. Some would feel inclined to donate even more, if able to do so.
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Post by xvertigox on Mar 5, 2022 20:24:55 GMT -5
xvertigox That may be the case. Maybe not. I'm not against Ukraine, I'm against paying for a DOOM map, made by anybody for any reason. Simple as.
That's completely reasonable. Not wanting to pay for pwads makes sense, claims of virtue signalling are a lot less tenable.
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Post by lunchlunch on Mar 5, 2022 22:22:01 GMT -5
xvertigoxI speak pretty loosely. I'm not going to die on the hill of claiming Romero is only doing this to get his name trending (...), my claim of virtue signaling was mainly directed at @pistoolkip as well as addressing the larger issue of witch hunting and ostracizing someone for having a bad opinion on something.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2022 0:16:36 GMT -5
Here's a dowload link to the iwads just for the heck of it (link removed)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2022 2:29:43 GMT -5
xvertigoxI speak pretty loosely. I'm not going to die on the hill of claiming Romero is only doing this to get his name trending (...), my claim of virtue signaling was mainly directed at @pistoolkip as well as addressing the larger issue of witch hunting and ostracizing someone for having a bad opinion on something. Check the DW thread on Vrack Botanicals, I was openly and successfully defending 40ozs right to free speech and sharing the wad (it's officially allowed by the updated readme).
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2022 3:42:48 GMT -5
Check the DW thread on Vrack Botanicals, I was openly and successfully defendending 40ozs right to free speech and sharing the wad (it's officially allowed by the updated readme). Yup. He really stood up to dew there, who started a beef out of the blue.
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Post by lunchlunch on Mar 6, 2022 4:39:12 GMT -5
@pistoolkip Hella, I respect that
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matador
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Post by matador on Mar 6, 2022 5:37:05 GMT -5
Can't say I feel 40 did anything wrong. I can understand why someone with a less than charitable view of Romero might be suspicious of his motives (and 40oz's views on Romero are certainly that) since the WAD comes from "The Romero Store" rather than any sort of charity and buyers just have to take Romero at his word that it'll go to charity. I don't have that cynical of a view of Romero but 40's got a point, more transparency would be good. As for releasing the wad, 40oz is acting in accordance with the terms of the text file as legal eagle Pistoolkip pointed out, so nothing to argue about there.
I think maybe a better way to do something like this would be to put out a free one-map WAD and have certain milestones at which the WAD would be expanded with more maps, encouraging people to donate money to it and still letting poor people be a part of it. That and having the money go straight to charity. Of course, this is probably all easier said than done.
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Post by dr_st on Mar 6, 2022 7:12:50 GMT -5
Let's assume that Romero actually plans to use all proceedings towards a good charity for the Ukrainian humanitarian cause.
There are two ways to get people to donate. One is to give the content for free and put a banner encouraging donations. The other is to put a paywall to get the content. Some people will ignore 1, others will be outraged by 2. It's hard to know which one will get you more money in the end.
BTW, I felt like donating to the Ukrainian humanitarian cause, so I did it. Went through my own tried and trusted channels. And they are still there for me, if I feel like donating more. I don't need Romero to mediate for me, but for some it might be an easy way.
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Post by lunchlunch on Mar 6, 2022 13:31:48 GMT -5
Alright, I'll stop sperging about what's probably a good cause. I stand by my feelings about video game mods remaining free, but I think I preemptively spazzed about the vilification of those who download the wad for free or were critical of the wad in any way, before that even had a chance to happen. I have no doubts about Romero making good on the donation, but I went through a different channel to donate a small amount of money, just to ease my conscience about being a spergy Scrooge.
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Mar 6, 2022 13:45:00 GMT -5
There are two ways to get people to donate. One is to give the content for free and put a banner encouraging donations. The other is to put a paywall to get the content. Some people will ignore 1, others will be outraged by 2. It's hard to know which one will get you more money in the end. The right way would be for Romero to front the donation money for the donation he is getting credit in the news for first, then put the map up for download with optional donations toward the donation goal equal to what he donated. That way people would be funding his donation and not guilt tripped into thinking this is gonna flop unless they help. That way the war victims actually receive the aid that John Romero is being called a humanitarian for. The value of the donation would be a fixed amount, and they would receive it immediately and exactly the amount he stated. At this point, they've received nothing, and they likely won't receive anything until after he decides its time to stop taking donations. If he doesn't want to take the hit financially, then he'd have to bet on himself to make a good map and exceed the donation goal, which would be the right thing to do. The donation isn't his, it's his fans that want to play his map. Imagine this. If you're starving, I could order you a pizza right now. Right this second, and have it delivered to you. But suppose instead, I'm going to tell all my social media followers that I'm collecting pizza orders for my starving friend. I run my crowdfunder for a month or two months or whenever I feel it's enough. The news writes about how generous I'm being and how many pizza orders I've raised. Once I've raised enough, I order 2,500 pizzas and they get delivered to your doorstep two months after you told me you're starving. What the fuck are you supposed to do with that many pizzas two months later? You'd be fucking dead by then. In war, people get fucking blown up. Their homes destroyed, businesses close and people can't work. It's an emergency, they don't really have a lot of time to wait. JR created doom. He has the money. He's doing fine. He doesn't need to start from a donation of 0.00 and then put all of the pressure on his fans to raise the donation to any usable amount. It's practically extortion. He's not doing anything at all. It may as well be a ransom note. "I won't donate anything at all unless you pay for my map. The value of my donation is equal to the measurable effectiveness of my public relations image, my social media reach, and what people perceive the quality of my work to be valued at." He could say that exact same thing in his tweet and his actions would be exactly the same. As long you think it's philanthrophy, then you'll donate. Honestly, who cares when someone says "i'm going to do something"? Just fucking do it. You can have the social credit when it's done.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2022 14:52:35 GMT -5
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nnn✓ork
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Post by nnn✓ork on Mar 6, 2022 15:41:47 GMT -5
Here's a dowload link to the iwads, just for the heck of it I hope this is a zip-bomb of goatsee pics, or are you just trying to watch the world burn. 40oz , this link should probably be snipped. ... Peer pressure at his finest. The consequences of disagreeing with your "friends", ... That goes to show how weak and susceptible people like you are before a small group of people giving fake awards and empty compliments. ... Fighting peer pressure with peer pressure? Lunchlunch is checked out of this silly drama, no need to spitroast 'em. If you are reading this, Lunchlunch, have a nice day.
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Post by 40oz on Mar 6, 2022 15:45:48 GMT -5
@pistoolkip thank you i do appreciate that
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2022 16:11:18 GMT -5
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Post by lunchlunch on Mar 6, 2022 16:34:45 GMT -5
@gh0stofapr3s3ntpast It's back pedaling, for sure. It's not due to peer pressure, or concern about cacowards. I have not one, but two maps, in a wad called Hard Fast Faggot Maps, I'm not getting a caco. I reflected on what it was I actually cared about that got me to engage in this thread. It was two issues. One- mods should be free. Two- People being deemed Nazis and ostracized for "bad" opinions. Number one I stand by, but number two wasn't really happening in this thread. I stand by number two for when it happens in the future but that wasn't happening here. There were a couple people here that said these views make the community look bad/retarded, and sure, dew was stirring the pot on DW to make us look like the evil alt right Doomers that should be banned, but that wasn't happening here in this thread. I should totally be called out for backpedaling if you feel like doing so, it's a cowardly thing, but I just decided my comments about people being treated like Nazis for having unpopular opinions was better saved for another thread another day when it was actually happening. You're dead-on that it was hypocritical of me to reveal that I had donated (my father taught me when I was young a good deed doesn't count if you tell others about it) and yes, that specifically was said to save face, and I'm totally a hypocrite for it. I'm not hiding that, and I don't really give much of a fuck about it, I'm a pseudo-nihilistic drug addict, I don't exactly have strong character or core values. My posts are shat out on the spot, they're not philosophic principles I live my life around.
Do I contradict myself? Yes, my dick is vast, it contains multitudes.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2022 17:13:38 GMT -5
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Mar 6, 2022 17:33:41 GMT -5
It's fine, I'm not asking people to take a side. I think it's extortion to use your fans to fill out a donation you're fully capable of making yourself from your beautiful castle in Ireland. I know people IRL and a lot more online who are doom fans who can't get their life together. Some have addictions, mental health issues, crippling anxiety, physical disabilities, etc. that keep them from holding steady work, and keeps them on fixed income, if any at all. Many of these people are highly creative. Doomworld mods and admins would know this if they actually cared about half the people they just throw into the banned members bin for not falling in line. I know because usually those people end up here and get called toxic from afar and I have to stand up for them. Doom is all they got and being socially isolated, especially during a pandemic fucks with them even more.
When you're someone who can't afford to keep a video game console, a decent gaming PC, or any disposable income for new games, Doom has always been there. These are the exact words of some of the few doom friends I have in IRL. It runs on everything, at a high FPS, and there's infinite new content to download and play. That's why I'll always continue making new limit removing maps for free.
It's really fucking hard for some people to get their lives in order and the Doom community gift economy is such an enormous blessing when you're disabled, unemployed, and otherwise forced to marinate in your thoughts. I don't need these people to out themselves -- you know if your life is in shambles and you don't talk about it because its embarrassing. If you're reading this, you know who you are, and I think about people like you all the time when I'm making Doom maps.
When I was a kid, my friends' moms and dads were getting them new gaming PCs and I was so envious of those assholes having LAN parties on Quake 3 and Counter Strike Source. All I had was some beat laptop that couldn't hold a charge for more than 30 minutes and took 15 minutes to boot up. If I wanted something new to play I had to make it myself. I didnt have a bank account until I was 16 so I couldn't pay for stuff even if I wanted it. I built little urban cities as deathmatch levels and played them on team deathmatch with ZCajun bots so I could PRETEND i had counterstrike. It wasn't even close, obviously but it was all I had. Doom was and still is such a huge part of my life. Getting to play new megawads and look at screenshots was so awesome
I didn't think much of it when John Romero rebranded the word 'megawad' for Sigil. But we're not to start a trend where putting price tags on doom wads now in 2022 and calling it "donations to charity" is fair game. Especially not while poor, disabled, and mentally ill people are already the most exploited they've ever been in 30 years. Fuck that shit. I'm going to make sure you get your doom maps for free.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2022 18:00:00 GMT -5
giving a heh out of respect for that post -- not because its funny but because there's a lot of truth to it.
Romero's buddy-buddy with a bunch of people in the Doom community, particularly the people who really want to be tastemakers, so it's easy to forget that he is, in fact, fabulously wealthy. So much so that I reckon that for the average Doomer (especially the marginalized people 40oz is talking about), 5 EUR is a bigger cut of their money than if Romero donated whatever sum of money he got out of the One Humanity donation drive from his pocket.
That, combined with the low-effort nature of the WAD itself (again, no custom MIDI? You sure you couldn't get Jimmy on the horn and grab something left on his cutting room floor? Not even something from vgmdb? You couldn't even give us a digitized Ukrainian flag for the title pic to commemorate the donation drive?) does IMO lead credence to the idea that Romero was looking for a quick way to get a little spotlight on himself. Imagine that -- the original Rock Star Game Dev, often imitated never duplicated, accept no substitutions, seeking attention?
Now, I don't think it's simply one or the other -- Romero can indeed be looking to donate to a good cause out of the kindness of his heart while engaging in attention-seeking behavior. One might even argue that the latter isn't even a big deal, so long as he's actually contributing to the welfare of some people who are in an incredibly bad spot right now. And IMO that makes sense. But it doesn't mean that Romero should go uncriticized, especially since this is, in essence, a single-level slice of a project he is seeking to release for free later on.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2022 23:38:07 GMT -5
A bit of off-topic, but nonetheless important (to me) point I would like to focus on: paying for a single-level slice of a project that is later released free is better than expecting free project and then having it released under a paywall (think TNT: Evilution).
I would have payed, but the current exchange ratio would rip me off more than it would be help. And by the way, donating directly from Russia to Ukrainian cause would get me an asset freeze under "counter-terrorism" law, hence why I would consider buying a wad otherwise (hoping to sneak a radar).
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2022 4:08:30 GMT -5
I don't think all mods / wads have to be free. I'm willing to pay a couple of bucks for one. But that mod better be damned good with a good production value and a high level of QA: new music, at least one full episode, new textures and/or sprites, and a lot of care. Like paying €5 to 10 for something like Sigil, Valiant, or Selaco doesn't seem unreasonable to me.
That said, I do agree that One Humanity is NOT up to that standard. One short level with stock textures and no replacement music or title screen seems lazy to me.
I would not have paid for it if the money wouldn't be going to a good cause. But pay what you want would have been a better system, or Romero doubling the donations with his own funds.
Finally, remember that the read me specifies that people are allowed to distribute it freely. So I don't agree that this one is hidden behind a pay-wall.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2022 7:26:35 GMT -5
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xeepeep
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Post by xeepeep on Mar 7, 2022 8:20:07 GMT -5
If you don't consider a product to be worth the asking price, you're free to just not buy it. I seriously don't get all this discussion. Are you autistic?
I also don't think Romero has a history of scamming people, I don't get why are people doubting his intentions. The point is to motivate people to donate to an important cause. For example I personally couldn't care less about the whole Ukraine situation, but if I bought this wad, it would've been my contribution that wouldn't have happened otherwise.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2022 8:50:07 GMT -5
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