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Post by ivandobrovski on Jan 25, 2022 2:39:18 GMT -5
Title.
I disagree and my point is very simple: All enemies are a very slight variation of the Imp for the most part. The only really creative enemies are Arch-Vile and Pain Elemental. Rest are standard business.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2022 2:44:09 GMT -5
I think it is gross oversimplification. Mancubus, Arachnotron, Revenants all introduce a dimension that an Imp doesn't have. The statement would be closer to truth if you spoke about Doom 1, not Doom 2. Hitscan enemies are also different from Imp, though.
There is a reason slaughterwads tend to be made for Doom II rather than Doom 1 and use Doom II monsters, among them not just Arch-viles and Pain Elemental.
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Post by olderthanthehills on Jan 25, 2022 2:44:23 GMT -5
Je défendrai le Revenant. A homing missile is a rather far cry from a slow orbe de flamme that inflicts little injury. Even more so when accouplé by a very fast and powerful skeleton, instead of a mere démon impuissant.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2022 2:45:03 GMT -5
If you need a diverse fps bestiary well, duh, Dai Katana would be an answer.
Also SErious Sam series and ultimate custom night.
Yep, that fnaf game is fps too. First Person Shit_your_pants.
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Post by ketmar on Jan 25, 2022 3:06:54 GMT -5
dunno. it's easy to invent a lot of wastly different enemies, but this alone won't make the game good. you have to have the power to fight with them — the appropriate weapons and such. Doom monsters seems to be designed to fit the arsenal (or vice versa ;-). yeah, they all basically bi-pedals with projectile/hitscan attacks (sorry, Caco and Babyspider, i love you both too! no, PE, you're ugly, go away!), but they fits the gameplay.
i mean… dunno. most Doom enemies feel different, so i think that the enemry roster is very varied. in a sense. other shooters may have more monster types, but they are usually not as well-balanced.
so i guess that the answer is "yes and no". ;-)
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joe-ilya
Hey, Ron! Can we say 'fuck' in the game?
a simple word, a simple turd
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Post by joe-ilya on Jan 25, 2022 3:10:28 GMT -5
Team Fortress 2
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Post by ivandobrovski on Jan 25, 2022 3:11:23 GMT -5
I think it is gross oversimplification. Mancubus, Arachnotron, Revenants all introduce a dimension that an Imp doesn't have. The statement would be closer to truth if you spoke about Doom 1, not Doom 2. Hitscan enemies are also different from Imp, though. There is a reason slaughterwads tend to be made for Doom II rather than Doom 1 and use Doom II monsters, among them not just Arch-viles and Pain Elemental. Mancubus still fires a projectile that is slow, but the variation is that there are now two and they have alternating spreads. Ok, debatable whether it's a slight variation, but nothing groundbreaking. Arachnotron literally keeps firing projectiles. It's a chaingunner X imp. Let's examine all enemies then, why not. Zombieman and Shotgunners are hitscanners. Ok, they are NOT imps but they are hardly the most interesting enemies. Their behavior is incredibly simplistic. Chaingunners add extra threat for simply firing continuously. But still, a hitscanner in the end. We can for all intents and purposes count those three in the hitscanner group. They have no other behavior. Then we have the famous Imp. Slow moving projectile and a melee attack... Where have I seen that before? Let me count: Cacodemon, Hell Knight, Baron of Hell. That's three enemies with the exact same model just applied. Hell Knight and Baron are literal number tweaked Imps, the Cacodemon gets to be slightly different as it's flying. That's all though, a flying Imp. Revenant also falls in this category, but at least it's got the slight variation of having homing applied to its projectiles. That's a good thing, they are a threat to the player even on their own, unlike the rest in this category. Demons and Spectres fill the role of your typical meatshield, but are very ineffectual at being a threat. Their behavior is also very bland, much like the group above. Cyberdemon, Imp made into a boss with splash damage. Behavior is otherwise not very interesting either. Spider Mastermind is a literal Chaingunner made into a boss. Also not very interesting... That leaves us with ArchViles and Pain Elementals. I can add Revenants here but honestly, I hardly see great variety let alone the most variety out of any fps, which is the point of the thread. Is it really the most varied out there? Even simply considering only old-school fps games before 2000's, it's hardly the most varied.
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kvsari
Doomer
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Post by kvsari on Jan 25, 2022 3:17:09 GMT -5
I think there needs to be more attack types. Give the Baron for example an area effect "stomp" attack with a windup and highlight to indicate the damage radius. Give the imps the ability to hurt players automatically when they are bumped into, making the spikes on their bodies more than just decoration. For the Mancubis perhaps a mortar attack where they aim their launchers up and charge a shot. Can't think of one for the Arachnatron. But perhaps this would screw the dynamic of a slaughtermap where you expect enemies to have only one projectile attack. The mod Project MSX has some of what I'm mentioning with alternate/additional monster attacks.
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Post by ketmar on Jan 25, 2022 3:27:37 GMT -5
hm. "improving" the existing mosters could be a fun idea for a community project…
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joe-ilya
Hey, Ron! Can we say 'fuck' in the game?
a simple word, a simple turd
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Post by joe-ilya on Jan 25, 2022 3:29:09 GMT -5
How can you forget about lost souls? They are underdogs, annoying little pests on their own for sure, but they compliment encounters with other enemies extremely well because their attack is more threatening than the pinkie's because they move faster than doomguy while attacking at the same time, they deny rocket launcher use, they act as shootable, sentient homing rev missiles.
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Post by ivandobrovski on Jan 25, 2022 3:34:33 GMT -5
How can you forget about lost souls? They are underdogs, annoying little pests on their own for sure, but they compliment encounters with other enemies extremely well because their attack is more threatening than the pinkie's because they move faster than doomguy while attacking at the same time, they deny rocket launcher use, they act as shootable, sentient homing rev missiles. Hmm you're right I forgot about including them as their own thing, but I attribute that to them being a vital component of Pain Elemental which I find a creative monster. It is a supportive monster that by itself cannot fight, but the things it creates can. I see no point considering a Lost Soul at this point without the Pain Elemental in the equation. I think there needs to be more attack types. Give the Baron for example an area effect "stomp" attack with a windup and highlight to indicate the damage radius. Give the imps the ability to hurt players automatically when they are bumped into, making the spikes on their bodies more than just decoration. For the Mancubis perhaps a mortar attack where they aim their launchers up and charge a shot. Can't think of one for the Arachnatron. But perhaps this would screw the dynamic of a slaughtermap where you expect enemies to have only one projectile attack. The mod Project MSX has some of what I'm mentioning with alternate/additional monster attacks. Precisely my point. Doom bestiary is bland enough that you can get away with some improvements to change behavior of them slightly to set them apart from each other more and give them better/more purposes to use in encounters.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2022 4:32:49 GMT -5
Doom is a movement-central fps. You see this in the weapons, and in the enemy types.
Hitscanners make you want to move to cover Imps (and its variations) makes you want to move forward and strafe to the side Melee enemies (pinkie, lost souls) drive you backwards and prevent the player from moving every where
And, of course, some enemies are blockers, while others act as turrets
The flying enemies add a little more spice, and so do the Doom 2 monsters.
Yet the monsters are also very easy to identify and have predictive movement, making the gameplay very simplistic and intuitive.
The real variety and challenge comes from terrain and monster placement, giving the mapper a lot of control to create different combat scenarios.
That's a huge part of why Doom is so popular for mapping
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Post by mayhemicdestrvctor on Jan 25, 2022 4:34:48 GMT -5
i think doom 2 has an extremely awesome enemy variety its so fun to make levels for them and you can be so creative with it i think its almost perfect and i like to make doom 1 styled wads that use doom2 stuff so it feels like doom1 but its enhanced
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Jan 25, 2022 10:48:47 GMT -5
ivandobrovski I agree, many monsters are imps with different health and more damage. I don't think it's the most varied beastiary of any FPS. I think Quake does a good job of taking it a step further, and a lot of future FPS's complicate things in ways. Doom is simple enough to allow creators to evolve the game from simple to complex. We now see the simplicity of Doom in a complex way but the base game itself is not revolutionary in its monster roster.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2022 14:33:04 GMT -5
ivandobrovski idk man the view you're presenting here is a very reductionist and anachronistic one. If you're simply gonna argue that every projectile-based enemy is a imp variant, every hitscan-based enemy is a chaingunner variant and every melee based enemy is a pinky variant then Doom's bestiary is the same as Catacomb/Wolf3D. Not only that but every single game that followed Doom and it's contemporaries (Duke3D, SW, Blood, Heretic, Hexen, etc) are just new-engine-based adaptations of the same old archetypes. So the discussion pretty much ends here. Based on your examples, one can simply argue that there's nothing special about PEs; since they're just Cacodemons that shoots lost souls as projectiles or that archies are just walking - respawn paramenters with a blast damaging hitscan attack. If you're gonna choose to reduce everything, then what makes any particular bestiary of any fps ever, special or varied? If it's gonna fall into the same barebone categories in the end?
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Post by ketmar on Jan 25, 2022 21:41:31 GMT -5
every projectile-based enemy is a imp variant, every hitscan-based enemy is a chaingunner variant and every melee based enemy is a pinky variant actually, it is even less diverse, because all of them have exactly the same AI. well, except flying skulls, they are even dumber than others.
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Post by mayhemicdestrvctor on Jan 25, 2022 22:34:42 GMT -5
xd
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joe-ilya
Hey, Ron! Can we say 'fuck' in the game?
a simple word, a simple turd
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Post by joe-ilya on Jan 25, 2022 23:51:06 GMT -5
Doom is the first of its kind, it's kind of unfair to judge the complexity of the enemies compared to any other FPS except for Wolf3D.
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Post by ivandobrovski on Jan 26, 2022 2:42:49 GMT -5
ivandobrovski I agree, many monsters are imps with different health and more damage. I don't think it's the most varied beastiary of any FPS. I think Quake does a good job of taking it a step further, and a lot of future FPS's complicate things in ways. Doom is simple enough to allow creators to evolve the game from simple to complex. We now see the simplicity of Doom in a complex way but the base game itself is not revolutionary in its monster roster. Exactly, and I think Quake or Serious Sam series have really interesting enemies in that regard. Quake more so as they made interesting encounters possible with much fewer monster counts possible, as the behaviors of enemies complimented each other pretty good. Level design also was way better compared to Doom's in general, with exception of Final Doom which IMO has the best level design compared to the original releases. ivandobrovski idk man the view you're presenting here is a very reductionist and anachronistic one. If you're simply gonna argue that every projectile-based enemy is a imp variant, every hitscan-based enemy is a chaingunner variant and every melee based enemy is a pinky variant then Doom's bestiary is the same as Catacomb/Wolf3D. Not only that but every single game that followed Doom and it's contemporaries (Duke3D, SW, Blood, Heretic, Hexen, etc) are just new-engine-based adaptations of the same old archetypes. So the discussion pretty much ends here. Based on your examples, one can simply argue that there's nothing special about PEs; since they're just Cacodemons that shoots lost souls as projectiles or that archies are just walking - respawn paramenters with a blast damaging hitscan attack. If you're gonna choose to reduce everything, then what makes any particular bestiary of any fps ever, special or varied? If it's gonna fall into the same barebone categories in the end? I guess you could argue that my view is reductionist, but I'm analyzing the very behavior of enemies here and what they bring to the table. You have to see beyond nostalgia bias and other factors to be able to do that. And if you honestly think Imp is nothing alike a Hell Knight or Baron you need to really sit down and rethink your approach. On the topic of other games you've mentioned like Duke3d or SW, you realize all of the enemies there have an additional quirk to set them apart from each other right... I mean enemies in Duke3d can JUMP at you, something your player cannot even do in Doom? There is an enemy that can literally shrink you in the game... Add to that the fact that there are enemies who will straight up charge at you (and actually be threatening at it) says a lot more than you'd like to admit, I believe. Doom is the first of its kind, it's kind of unfair to judge the complexity of the enemies compared to any other FPS except for Wolf3D. I disagree with this statement. If you had the creativity to create things like ArchVile or a Pain Elemental, you could just as easily add more complexity to enemies. Remember Doom series always had issues with their release, particularly with time it took. I like to attribute the lack of interesting enemies to this aspect of it. Also take into account Hexen and Heretic also use the very engine Doom was made with plus some additions, and the monster behaviors are inspired much from D&D. It is no secret iD software people were fans of D&D (Sandy Petersen being a huuuuuge fan of that in particular) so their designs being inspired from that is no surprise. D&D doesn't have this many bland enemies or encounters in it either. Multiple attacks or effects on monsters exist there. You can see evidence of this in Heretic and Hexen, but not Doom.
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kvsari
Doomer
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Post by kvsari on Jan 26, 2022 4:18:07 GMT -5
ivandobrovskiid Software had to make the engine first and the tools. Raven Software which made Heretic and Hexen didn't have to redo all that hard work. They could afford the time to design more varied enemies.
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Post by mayhemicdestrvctor on Jan 26, 2022 4:24:05 GMT -5
it would be like creating a doom mod right
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Jan 26, 2022 6:30:03 GMT -5
well they had to make Doom 1 first, at least. Thats where most of the imp variants are. The hell knight was a welcome edition to the set because barons are just too tanky. They really stepped it up in terms of monster variety in Doom 2, but like others said you can't really deny that Doom was the baseline that influenced what the next games became
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Post by mayhemicdestrvctor on Jan 26, 2022 6:52:40 GMT -5
idk i still think a caco is a flying hell knight tho but the fact that he flies makes him be able to cross other lines so its a good thing to fight with when up there are imps or something that can make everything really oppressive
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2022 11:58:19 GMT -5
I think we should get rid of the term bestiary because it's too similar to bestiality. It offends AAP (animal attracted people). Seriously, let's show some awareness.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2022 12:10:32 GMT -5
ivandobrovski as a friendly advice, i suggest not assuming things about other users outside of the proposed discussion in order to make your rebuttal - otherwise you're risking creating a strawman to ground your defense and if you spent some time 'round here (or in anywhere else for the matter) you'll know that this kind of approach is the primary cause for discussions escalating into name calling. Yes, this is the internet so you should take any claim and/or personal experiences that are brought into discussions with grains upon grains of salt - as they might be just fanfics manufactured on the fly for trolling purposes. Still we owe at least a bare minimum amount of credibility to each other words. So to clear things up: No, i don't have any rose-tinted glasses for Doom, specially for Doom II since i only properly played the game from start to finish in my mid 20s. If i would have any kind of nostalgia bias it'll be for the classic build-engine games such as Blood, Shadow Warrior, Duke3D, Redneck Rampage and NAM (or even for Heretic) as i grew up playing these games (way earlier than i think i was supposed to) and despite other modern "cool looking" fps games of the time (Quake, Unreal, Half-Life, Counter-Strike, Serious Sam, Will Rock, Halo, Killzone, CoD, etc) i've always came back to play Blood, SW & cia while i completely lost my interest for Doom over the years until i've discovered mods like Brutal and Complex Doom that rejuvenated my interest for the game. TL;DR way before playing Doom II and being properly introduced to it's new bestiary, i've spent countless hours investing my gaming time into other shooters. Back to the topic. As other users like @vigilantdoomer and @pistoolkip pointed out, not only you're oversimplifying things but you're also not taking other elements of the game into consideration. You've framed the discussion in a arbitrary way that only the enemies that have some tricks matter while the rest are reduced to bland variants - while failing to take into account the support role the so called bland variants have, their particular strength, placement or even the tiers of escalating threat relationship between archetypes (like the imp>Caco>HK). So if you gonna discard all of that, why i should think that Duke3D, Quake or Serious Sam bestiaries are varied? I can reduce their enemies to simple bland varaints aswell, since the vast majority of the enemies don't have cool tricks up their sleeves and even the ones that have i can simply reduce them to a X + Y formula like you did with the arachnotron. Other users such as kvsari , 40oz and joe-ilya also pointed out the anachronistic unfair unbiased frame you're giving to Doom's bestiary. In other words; you're judging and dissecting Doom's bestiary based on games that came after Doom, have different engine capabilities and that were ultimately build upon previous fps enemies (incl. Doom). All fps games to this date uses the very same concepts of Doom's monsters roles to give to their own monsters. But using your "method", i can pick Halo and just say that since every Covenant enemy is projectile-based then all of them are just less retard variants of grunts and every Flood enemy are just full retard versions of USNC marines + spawning capabilities. And if you gonna ignore the tiers of escalating threat of archetypes (i.e. reducing every projectile-based enemy to imp variants without taking into account different attack patterns, additional properties such as flying, both cqc and projectile-dmg output, HP total, etc) i can do the same for Quake or Serious Sam. The discussion become sterile, as you already have an arbitrary view over the subjects from the get go.
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