Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2021 0:21:55 GMT -5
This thread would not be possible in DW so I make it here.
What's the appeal of EE? Why are DW "elites" and "plebs" simping for this port? I bet majority of them haven't (and won't) use it outside of Skillsaw's Heartland.
So they want wads with modern features? Here's GZDoom, modders can make more impressive things with it (Bauul's Elementalism is a great example); why to bother with a barely updated port with poorly structured menu options.
Since the release of Heartland, they keep saying "This port deserves more (exclusive) mods". How so?
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good-old
Doomer
18 year old dumb kid.
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Post by good-old on Mar 28, 2021 0:56:37 GMT -5
My best guess would be that it's because Quasar and fraggle are involved in its development. They're DW mods, so.....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2021 1:47:30 GMT -5
I think it might be a David and Goliath situation. GZDoom is super popular, associated with a lot of drama and led by EEEVIL Graf Zahl from the foreign lands of zdoom.org. Of course some people will root for this drama-free (?) underdog from Doomworld, their homeland.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2021 2:24:33 GMT -5
I would prefer to hear from someone with actual knowledge of technical merits of Eternity Engine. Because being not GzDoom does not make a port automatically redundant - EDGE has users for a reason, I've posted in "Doom community happenings" about it. Neither do I care about Doom community drama in relation to source port choices.
So instead of "why [some abstraction perceived as DW] picks Eternity Engine" I would prefer to hear "what would you choose Eternity Engine for" (mapping speed when using features not in Boom/vanilla, physics closer to Boom/Doom than in Gzdoom, demo compatibility between releases - examples of what could have been, not actually something that necessarily applies to Eternity), and if you can't say anything, don't waste my time with your posts.
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xeepeep
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Post by xeepeep on Mar 28, 2021 3:08:26 GMT -5
It's developed by Doomworld mainstays (edit: unlike all other advanced ports whose devs mainly hang out on zdoom) which I guess gives it an appeal if you're one as well. If my friend made some app or something, I'd use it even if better ones were available. don't waste my time with your posts. Take a walk bro
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2021 4:28:22 GMT -5
I would prefer to hear from someone with actual knowledge of technical merits of Eternity Engine. Yes, I would prefer it too. I would be glad if EE mappers like Skillsaw or Essel say "With EE I can do this and that. I don't think it could be achived with other ports like GZDoom or EDGE". But we can't ignore regular player's perspective on the port. Mods target them after all. So instead of "why [some abstraction perceived as DW] picks Eternity Engine" I've watched a lot of playthroughs on YT by various authors, lurked iddqd.ru, doomer.boards, sorry, but I haven't seen EE used anywhere except DW. Plus, DW actively bullied users who dared to express their slight upset that Heartland is for EE (I'm talking about pagb666's post and the separeted thread named "pagb shows where EE touched him" by some mod). I would prefer to hear "what would you choose Eternity Engine for" Yes, I think my question "What's the appeal of Eternity Engine?" is similar to yours. mapping speed when using features not in Boom/vanilla, physics closer to Boom/Doom than in Gzdoom, demo compatibility between releases - examples of what could have been, not actually something that necessarily applies to Eternity This is what I wanted to hear. if you can't say anything, don't waste my time with your posts. I don't understand, what I should say. I just asked a question. Nobody forces you to reply every thread and wastes your time, you do.
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good-old
Doomer
18 year old dumb kid.
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Post by good-old on Mar 28, 2021 5:06:11 GMT -5
Isn't "Why pick X" pretty much the same as "What would you choose X for"? Also, dmslr asked a question lol, he didn't answer it in a nonsensical way, he isn't supposed to say something. And speaking of being bullied if upset about a mapset only requiring EE, (sorry this is the second time saying this) but it is probably because some of the mods took part in its development, and DW mods are never okay with something that doesn't go their way.
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dn
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the motherfucking darknation
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Post by dn on Mar 28, 2021 7:41:09 GMT -5
You guys really want Doomerboards™ to officially pick a side in the great, twenty-years-and-ongoing source port wars? Because if we do, it will be only to cause maximum butthurt, and it will definitely be Brutal Doom for a hundred thousand reasons, foremost amongst them being the fact that it isn't actually a source port.
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40oz
diRTbAg
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Post by 40oz on Mar 28, 2021 8:14:41 GMT -5
I'm not very invested in this issue so what I'm saying might be common knowledge. I could also be making stuff up from fuzzy memory. Not sure. I feel like I need to qualify this post this way because people who care about this 'problem' care way too much to the point where I think it hurts the players.
I think I recall some people having some problems with Graf Zahl not being very responsive to bug reports related to vanilla emulation. The reasoning being that GZDoom is a largely user friendly source port that corrects known vanilla bugs. Meanwhile projects like BTSX makes extensive use of vanilla doom's bugs as features. I've read many paragraphs of technical documentation about how the BTSX team got maps to work that were by every measure NOT supposed to work. Stuff I really wish I hadn't because the more I did the less I cared. The achievements of said wad are largely invisible to the average player and much more vanilla efficient designs could have been made with better planning instead of preserving an existing thing as much as humanly possible.
Anyway, long battles were had because a large swath of the player base WILL not give up using GZDoom, and Graf Zahl will absolutely not give in to recognizing these vanilla bugs as features worth preserving. Which unfortunately nullifies all the work put into vanilla maps that intend to make impossible things possible using engine bugs you aren't supposed to be using.
This is best exemplified in the cacoward winning wad lilith.pk3, which exists solely to exploit what GZDoom won't do for vanilla mappers and other largely unencounterable engine bugs that nearly never happen to the common mapper. Seriously, its some abnormally passive aggressive bullshit that most people will never fully understand until admitted into doomworlds elitist group think tanks.
Stuff like linguortals are nearly impossible to replicate with any reliability for most mappers. I've never tried. I hate working with self referencing sectors for example. Sometimes all you'll do is touch a vertex or have a bad day with a nodebuilder and it fucks everything up. There's no use designing something that relies on it. I just use the tools I know works for me.
For all this noise, doomer boards project is entirely immune to all of it by the simple fact that we go with limit removing compatibility. Our maps are technically playable by just about every source port, so we have amazing reach. We don't need to utilize mapping bugs to work around vanilla engine limits, so we can make bold architecture with excessive detailing wherever we want. Meanwhile it's still very close to vanilla functionally. Working with vanilla limits is an absolute chore and I wouldn't want to see my fellow mappers wasting hours trying to make something playable that is otherwise not very remarkable in the eyes of the player.
Im sorry to say, but the cold reality is that mapping for Eternity is a lot of wasted effort. There's a massive wave of players who play doom outside the doomworld community and many of them use and have great appreciation for GZDoom. And rightfully so! It's a very impressive port! Eternity will not catch up, no matter how respectful to the vanilla engine it intends to be. I might watch some videos of Heartland but I'm not gonna play it. The last time I tried eternity I didnt like it at all. And the arrogance I saw from people like edward850 shutting down people for calling out bugs for not reporting them is absurd. No one owes you their time to report bugs. They just want to play.
It's too much work to work with this shit and not enough people care. In 2021, it's already starting to feel like Doom is fighting against the current trend of technology, since we've moved on to mobile platforms, updated operating systems, etc.
I had an experience recently setting up a multiplayer game on Zandronum for a gamer who was trying it for the first time. I felt like an old fart excusing the weird default things like why the resolution looks fucked up, why they had to type commands into a console, explaining why the autoaim does what it does, why they have to set up their controls a special way, etc. In a lot of ways doom doesn't FEEL like it's SUPPOSED to work on modern systems. Things have always been this way, but a lot of people don't have the patience to learn this shit, so I think it's always going to better to do everything you can to make Doom as friendly a user experience as possible.
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Post by Washing Machine Enthusiasts on Mar 28, 2021 9:48:25 GMT -5
From what I gather, the portals in Eternity are superior to the portals in ZDoom and on par with the portals in the Build engine. It also has support for slopes and other often-used ZDoom features. The main use case is therefore making Build-type maps in the Doom engine, which is useful because no Build editor comes close to DoomBuilder in functionality or user-friendliness, and the Build engine is janky to begin with.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2021 10:19:29 GMT -5
I'll mostly say again what I posted on the other thread but the impression that I get from scattered posts on dw and also by knowing the mapping scene is that people would like to have something faithful to Doom and simple like boom, limit removing or vanilla but with just some more advanced stuff that can be handy like a more feasible dehacked or mapinfo. I can understand the excitement if this get more traction because if more mappers go make something with Eternity features it means there will be more unique wad to look at and less "stagnation in the market", and that isn't a bad thing at all. Though I don't think memfis is wrong either, this in part can be a situation resulting from oldass or ongoing dramas and forums rivalries but I doubt that those who aren't involved directly care so much about that.
This is best exemplified in the cacoward winning wad lilith.pk3, which exists solely to exploit what GZDoom won't do for vanilla mappers and other largely unencounterable engine bugs that nearly never happen to the common mapper. Seriously, its some abnormally passive aggressive bullshit that most people will never fully understand until admitted into doomworlds elitist group think tanks. Stuff like linguortals are nearly impossible to replicate with any reliability for most mappers. I've never tried. I hate working with self referencing sectors for example. Sometimes all you'll do is touch a vertex or have a bad day with a nodebuilder and it fucks everything up. There's no use designing something that relies on it. I just use the tools I know works for me. You make it sound like lilith.pk3 was made specifically to piss off graf and own gzdoom and while the cacowards did indeed piss off graf salt (and it was great) that wasn't the author purpose. I remember at the time that graf was throwing a tantrum because he didn't wanted to work to make lilith compatible with gzdoom, fair enough but the author told him that he didn't want that and it wasn't necessary since the mod it's intended to be a glitchy mess that works only in certain conditions. Stuff like linguortals are more interesting discoveries about the engine and not truly viable tricks for the mappers to use. And anyway if someone wants to make a vanilla maps that uses these engine exploits what's the problem?
Omfg guys I don't even a nearly 30 years old game is full of things that are so outdated nowdays how can this be??
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2021 15:32:42 GMT -5
Guys, I'm just a mapper. I just want to drag verts, place textures and make cool level spaces with secrets, interconnected areas and cool combat. Been doing this for 10 years and I still don't want to learn all of this dumb nerd shit. I already have to learn a metric shit ton of nerd shit for my job virtually every day so when I make maps for Doom I really just want to relax, drag some verts, make some cool looking areas and place some monsters. I really just want to keep it simple.
I do have to admit that I do have a certain fondness for limit removing mapping and that's actually how I started. Really sorry for sounding like a noob and I know there are differences in gameplay but to me it doesn't feel like that. When I play a map made for limit removing on gzdoom, it feels exactly the same to me. Nowadays I make my personal maps for GZDoom because I just like being able to use textures as flats and being able to align flats. I know this must sound strange to some people but I don't really care. If someone doesn't use dumb "brewtal" gameplay mods to ruin the balancing of my maps then I really can't tell the difference if they are using prboom or GZDoom. I was recently playing Heartland and aside from having those cool room over rooms, it feels exactly the same as any other port for me.
On the other hand, I get really pissed when someone ruins my map with their dumb gameplay mods.
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Post by printz on Apr 26, 2021 8:22:23 GMT -5
demo compatibility between releases That's not quite easy. We have vanilla to MBF demo support and I'm also working on vanilla Heretic (at least v1.3) demo support. Demo compatibility from Eternity demo from version N to version N + 1 is too hard because (1) we won't ever have enough Eternity demo samples in the wild to be worth supporting, (2) it means we need to keep the buggy code active just to support older EE demos. I don't know how to solve this, and it's sad, because it means that modern mods can't have startup demos like the IWADs. Still, gotta keep an eye on the Doomed Speed Demos Archive and if they post recordings of Heartland. They already have some odd GZDoom demos posted there, so the possibility exists. Because then, we'll have an incentive to support legacy Eternity demos From what I gather, the portals in Eternity are superior to the portals in ZDoom and on par with the portals in the Build engine. It also has support for slopes and other often-used ZDoom features. Eh, almost there, not quite there. I'm working now on finally adding functional slopes despite ZDoom and Odamex having them for decades, and hopefully also sloped portals. Later on maybe I'll finally work on rotated portals and moving polyobject 3dmidtex platforms... Time will tell.
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