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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2021 11:44:20 GMT -5
The subject of looting have come up numerous times on these boards, yet today I just thought - or perhaps meditated - a bit more about it, and why do I think looting is such a repulsive act.
In my view, looting is analogous to the act of pillaging - the forcible taking of private property by an invading or conquering army from the enemy’s subjects - which is prohibited by the Fourth Geneva Convention as well as other international treaties. Indeed the closest Russian term for the act of pillaging is "мародёрство" (from "marauder") and the Wikipedia entry in English segment corresponding to the Wikipedia entry on "мародёрство" is, unsurprisingly, looting. Beside the appropriation or destruction of the property, pillaging is often accompanied by rape and killing of civilians.
The underlying cause is lack of restraint, regression to savagery - uninhibited, the looters/pillages let loose their base emotions: greed, hatred (directed at those who are wealthy by those who are poor), hubris (here understood as arrogant dehumanization of the enemy, expressed through actions such as humiliation or rape). At least in 20th century, there were attempts to punish the pillagers within one's own army as it became well recognized that such acts were endangering troop morale, although these attempts may not have been effective in practice.
Let's also consider that the very concept of the law is based on the fact that there are limits to humans behavior which apply even when administering punishment. In Ancient Greek tragedy, "Antigone", Creon issues a proclamation that forbids Polynices to be buried or mourned for, for Polynices waged war on his own brother, which concluded with them killing each other. However, Creon's decree is at odds with the custom of community which allows relatives of the foe to be honored and buried, and from the perspective inherent in paganism of Ancient Greece, the customs were given by gods and thus cannot be overruled by any mortal, of however a noble descent. Having understood this, Antigone defies Creon's decree, and Creon proclaims another "creative" punishment, to have Antigone entombed alive and thus sentenced to slow death and also denied burial rites. Both his actions anger the gods and thus invite divine retribution - the wife and son of Creon both commit suicide, their deaths thus "exchanged" for the unburied two Creon withheld from gods. Thus, as you see, the Greeks understood that the authority of mortal ruler - just like the agency of any other mortal - was still restricted by divine law, even in punishment of transgressors, such as Polynices, who murdered his own brother.
I won't dispute that the modern law got corrupted to serve the interest of the wealthy, but the law itself has a reason to exist. [This would be expanded with examples, were the post not already big enough]
Also, the position of "evil" businesses - who thus "deserve what they get" - being on receiving end is untenable: if the looters are motivated by their hatred of the wealthy, then this should rightfully be regarded a civil war; the victims who suffer the blunt of the attack are not stock holders but staff - common workers, such as clerks, janitors, guards etc. who are most likely underpaid. These people have to endure - besides facing the possibility of injury or death - the emotional violence, the feeling of helplessness - being at mercy of the looters. Bad enough, in my view - even without acts of deliberate murder and rape - and I doubt not some people may have developed PTSD following such attacks, as the experience is akin to being take hostage by a terrorist group.
And now for those who would welcome revolution for a "just cause" - what fruits do you think such a revolution would bear, assuming the underpinning motivation behind looting persists and is widespread? Revolution is an emergency - just like the invasion, the protests that paralyze large chunks of city infrastucture, etc. if public response to emergency is looting - and the perception that some or all laws are ceased to apply - there will be a surge of crime - and not just looting, I think - it will go beyond that.
P.S. I have to wrap this up because it took much time to write and doubtless is not an easy read, so it's a bit sketchy, draft-like - but we can expand on this in discussion.
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BIG DICK NIGGA
this post is a lie about my bodily proportions
Major Arlene obsessed, 100% verified freakazoid. AKA bzzrak
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Post by BIG DICK NIGGA on Feb 11, 2021 13:50:00 GMT -5
That's a very post but I didn't anything
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Post by joe-ilya on Feb 11, 2021 14:37:54 GMT -5
I'm sick of those looters, AND POLLUTERS.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2021 14:47:55 GMT -5
The subject of looting have come up numerous times on these boards, yet today I just thought - or perhaps meditated - a bit more about it, and why do I think looting is such a repulsive act.
In my view, looting is analogous to the act of pillaging - the forcible taking of private property by an invading or conquering army from the enemy’s subjects - which is prohibited by the Fourth Geneva Convention as well as other international treaties. Indeed the closest Russian term for the act of pillaging is "мародёрство" (from "marauder") and the Wikipedia entry in English segment corresponding to the Wikipedia entry on "мародёрство" is, unsurprisingly, looting. Beside the appropriation or destruction of the property, pillaging is often accompanied by rape and killing of civilians.
The underlying cause is lack of restraint, regression to savagery - uninhibited, the looters/pillages let loose their base emotions: greed, hatred (directed at those who are wealthy by those who are poor), hubris (here understood as arrogant dehumanization of the enemy, expressed through actions such as humiliation or rape). At least in 20th century, there were attempts to punish the pillagers within one's own army as it became well recognized that such acts were endangering troop morale, although these attempts may not have been effective in practice.
Let's also consider that the very concept of the law is based on the fact that there are limits to humans behavior which apply even when administering punishment. In Ancient Greek tragedy, "Antigone", Creon issues a proclamation that forbids Polynices to be buried or mourned for, for Polynices waged war on his own brother, which concluded with them killing each other. However, Creon's decree is at odds with the custom of community which allows relatives of the foe to be honored and buried, and from the perspective inherent in paganism of Ancient Greece, the customs were given by gods and thus cannot be overruled by any mortal, of however a noble descent. Having understood this, Antigone defies Creon's decree, and Creon proclaims another "creative" punishment, to have Antigone entombed alive and thus sentenced to slow death and also denied burial rites. Both his actions anger the gods and thus invite divine retribution - the wife and son of Creon both commit suicide, their deaths thus "exchanged" for the unburied two Creon withheld from gods. Thus, as you see, the Greeks understood that the authority of mortal ruler - just like the agency of any other mortal - was still restricted by divine law, even in punishment of transgressors, such as Polynices, who murdered his own brother.
I won't dispute that the modern law got corrupted to serve the interest of the wealthy, but the law itself has a reason to exist. [This would be expanded with examples, were the post not already big enough]
Also, the position of "evil" businesses - who thus "deserve what they get" - being on receiving end is untenable: if the looters are motivated by their hatred of the wealthy, then this should rightfully be regarded a civil war; the victims who suffer the blunt of the attack are not stock holders but staff - common workers, such as clerks, janitors, guards etc. who are most likely underpaid. These people have to endure - besides facing the possibility of injury or death - the emotional violence, the feeling of helplessness - being at mercy of the looters. Bad enough, in my view - even without acts of deliberate murder and rape - and I doubt not some people may have developed PTSD following such attacks, as the experience is akin to being take hostage by a terrorist group.
And now for those who would welcome revolution for a "just cause" - what fruits do you think such a revolution would bear, assuming the underpinning motivation behind looting persists and is widespread? Revolution is an emergency - just like the invasion, the protests that paralyze large chunks of city infrastucture, etc. if public response to emergency is looting - and the perception that some or all laws are ceased to apply - there will be a surge of crime - and not just looting, I think - it will go beyond that.
P.S. I have to wrap this up because it took much time to write and doubtless is not an easy read, so it's a bit sketchy, draft-like - but we can expand on this in discussion.
This is exactly what the communists did with the Kulacs and the Nazis with the Jews. Many rich people are not very good people. I think the GameStop events show this. NO ONE likes the parasite class, not even hardcore conservatives but what about people who made it in life on their own and actually contribute to society? Have you read Masters of Doom? The Johns deserve every bit of success they got. They are not the 1% but the rioters are not looting from the 1%. You need to dehumanize your target and also accuse them of oppressing you. If you can put all successful people in the "oppressor" class you can also shove all of them in the enemy category, no matter their unique characteristics. I even have a personal story about this. My great grandfather from my mothers' side was a poor peasant but he had enough of poverty and decided to take life into his own hands. So what did he do? He took a boat to America and went to Detroit to dig ditches! In a not as rich country you can do a lot more with money you earn abroad. He basically slaved for 10 years but gathered enough money that he could return to his homeland, buy a large property with a big, comfy peasant house, a lot of land and hired some servants too. And before a commie spergs out at that word, the servants ate at the same table as my family, ate the same food and remained friends long after the events I am about to tell. Of course, the commies didn't care about all of this. They didn't care that my great grandfather slaved for 10 years in America and built a life for his family with his bare hands. To them, he was just another rich peasant, another "rich white guy", if we use modern terms. So what did the communist degenerates do? They put a target on my family, drove them away from their own homes and then they burned it to the fucking ground. They killed all the animals, cut down all the orchard trees and demolished the house. They almost killed my great-grandmother because she was having none of it. Thank God my great-grandfather died a year before the communists raped my country. I'm glad he wasn't there to see all that. Years later, my grandparents and her siblings were denied proper education as a result of being kulak children. One of my uncles was a pretty smart dude so he became a student when things simmered down a bit. He didn't really like the communists (for obvious reasons) so he was arrested, sent to awful gulags and then he was sent to the Danube canal to what was basically slave labor. Years after that, due to the communist legacy in my country, we STILL don't have all of our land returned to us and for the last 20 years, due to bureaucracy (a common symptom of socialism), my family has struggled to reclaim what was left of their home, of which only the land itself still exists. We are not quite at that point in America but I can see all the sings and to see them in the most powerful country in the world is just sickening. It's all the same tactics. I spit on all communists, you are all fucking scum and you WILL get what you deserve one day. * SPITS* |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2021 15:01:19 GMT -5
Also, I know that what was done to my family was done by the state and the looting in America is done by citizens but that's what these people are pushing for they want to seize the power of the state to push their dumb ideas.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2021 19:29:47 GMT -5
I'm sick of those looters, AND POLLUTERS. We're gonna be out of the butt...and into the fuck...if we don't come up with that 36 dollars...*THUD* |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2021 9:26:11 GMT -5
I think the best argument against looting, is that you wouldn't want it to happen to you, or someone you care about.
Anyone who supports it should get their home robbed, and burned down, with their family inside, burning to death in the process. Than I want to see what kind of position they are going to have.
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Feb 12, 2021 11:08:42 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2021 12:02:15 GMT -5
A "strong" from propagandistic perspective, you mean. That is, sly, manipulative and involving dehumanization and depersonalization of the enemy - "the white people", "the rich". In the whole essay there is no mention there are people at the stores when the looting happens, whose physical and mental health - not to say, life - can be endangered, and not some abstract "rich class representative". The other manipulative idea is that the end always justifies the means, and with the end defined in abstract terms, the means can go really far - in terms of consequences, that will involve real people and not some abstract entities like "white" or "rich". And might as well involve people who are neither white nor rich - all unimportant, of course, in the grand "black power" scheme of things.
As for focus on the feelings of the "oppressed" to justify their criminal acts, terrorists use similar brainwashing tactics - look up "Management of Savagery", a wikipedia article on it might still have a link, if not, wayback machine should have it. How many mentions of "tenderness of the heart" and the like when portraying fellow terrorists! The same epithets are never applied to the "enemy", though.
I think the very first post I made in this topic really rendered Vicky Osterwell's tactics futile, as evidenced by @doomro's personal account of his ancestor's who have experienced dekulakization. @contracommando seems to get the point too, looking at the things from personal, empathic perspective and not that of lifeless abstractions.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2021 13:47:36 GMT -5
The era of wokism when whether looting is bad or not is a matter of dispute.
40oz, do you believe that looters of 2020 cared if the owners they looted were white or black, "privileged" or "oppressed"?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2021 14:46:20 GMT -5
A "strong" from propagandistic perspective, you mean. That is, sly, manipulative and involving dehumanization and depersonalization of the enemy - "the white people", "the rich". In the whole essay there is no mention there are people at the stores when the looting happens, whose physical and mental health - not to say, life - can be endangered, and not some abstract "rich class representative". The other manipulative idea is that the end always justifies the means, and with the end defined in abstract terms, the means can go really far - in terms of consequences, that will involve real people and not some abstract entities like "white" or "rich". And might as well involve people who are neither white nor rich - all unimportant, of course, in the grand "black power" scheme of things. As for focus on the feelings of the "oppressed" to justify their criminal acts, terrorists use similar brainwashing tactics - look up "Management of Savagery", a wikipedia article on it might still have a link, if not, wayback machine should have it. How many mentions of "tenderness of the heart" and the like when portraying fellow terrorists! The same epithets are never applied to the "enemy", though. I think the very first post I made in this topic really rendered Vicky Osterwell's tactics futile, as evidenced by @doomro 's personal account of his ancestor's who have experienced dekulakization. @contracommando seems to get the point too, looking at the things from personal, empathic perspective and not that of lifeless abstractions. Just replace "white people" and "rich" with kulak or Jew or you see history repeating. It doesn't matter at all that these are very broad terms. I guess these Americans think Europe is like America and expect them to act like Americans, which by the way is a kind of imperialism. In truth, Europe is extremely diverse beginning with language, religion, history and so on. There's lots of diversity not just within Europe but within countries as well. In my country we also have Hungarians, Turks who have been here for hundreds of years and successfully integrated and out president is a Transylvanian Saxon. We have Orthodox Christians, Catholics, Protestants and a few Muslims too. For a small country, that's quite a lot. Some Romanians and Hungarians still don't get along all the time we still get a few ethnic conflicts every now and then. Some can't even get along with their neighbors and we're supposed to welcome foreigners from thousands of kilometers away with open arms! Europe is extremely diverse and to say that we need to replace it with some kind of globohomo made-up "diversity" is extremely offensive when they know nothing about us. But hey, I guess we're all just "white people". Also, Rich as in what? Upper Middle class? Millionaire, Billionaire? All I can say for certain is that no one likes the parasite hedge fund class but to these people they are one and the same. This isn't going to end well. What these people want is to seize the power of the state so they can confiscate your property and imprison you for your ideas. Don't listen to them when they deny it. It's all lies. We're not there yet but give it a few years. After that, it's gonna reach our parts too. I just wish I could own guns so I can at least defend myself. The police and army not only will not protect you but will actively oppress you once these people get power. Hope I don't end up like my grandparents! I mean, just read the Wikipedia entry about Dekulakization and replace Kulak with White people. |
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dn
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Post by dn on Feb 12, 2021 15:57:00 GMT -5
I think the problem is that the middle class are getting squeezed from both sides of the spectrum.
The "oppressed" are robbing via illegal mechanisms. Blah blah, just another day in America, nothing new under the sun. But, simultaneously, the upper 1% are robbing property via legal mechanisms - this recent stock market wankery is just the tip of the iceberg - and, when caught out, they will *pay* people to invent new legal mechanisms with which to fuck with you. Thing is, they can only rob from people who actually *have* shit worth taking: the middle class, in other words.
Things are going to explode because you've trapped people between a rock and a hard place - you're getting fucked from both ends. There is no place for the pressure to go.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2021 11:53:34 GMT -5
I am going to link two articles - critical reviews of an interview (2020) with Vicky Osterweil: www.intellectualtakeout.org/debunking-nprs-bizarre-in-defense-of-looting-interview/This one mentions (among other things) how looting endangers people lifes, or otherwise involves violence or threats of violence. Also there are examples of actual deaths or murders(cop getting killed when trying to prevent looting, and death accidents linked to George Floyd protests) legalinsurrection.com/2020/08/in-defense-of-looting-seriously-leftist-author-went-there/And this one is - bingo - points attention to the fact Vicky Osterweil doesn't really consider only 1% to be the enemy, but targets small businesses too: Can be validated by reading interview directly here: www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2020/08/27/906642178/one-authors-argument-in-defense-of-looting?ocid=uxbndlbingP.S. I have realized another disturbing thing today - the article by Vicky Osterweil doesn't target generic audience. 40oz linked it trying to sway the wrong audience, but the author knows their audience well. Rational thinking people and those of non-left political disposition won't buy into this crap anyway. The article is intended for leftists, those who already support identity politics and view the world through "cultural marxism" lenses. As such, there is a need to counter it out of the realms of this forum - and in the real world - using the rhetoric that would be accepted by leftists, so we don't get leftists swayed by what falls only little short of justifying terrorism. Really, could not 9/11 be portrayed as an attack on the rich / the system of capitalist oppression? |
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dn
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the motherfucking darknation
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Post by dn on Feb 13, 2021 15:20:23 GMT -5
Really, could not 9/11 be portrayed as an attack on the rich / the system of capitalist oppression? Sure. But I prefer to portray it as the world's largest amateur synchronized diving demonstration instead. |
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Post by dr_st on Feb 13, 2021 16:19:55 GMT -5
The article is intended for leftists, those who already support identity politics and view the world through "cultural marxism" lenses. As such, there is a need to counter it out of the realms of this forum - and in the real world - using the rhetoric that would be accepted by leftists, so we don't get leftists swayed by what falls only little short of justifying terrorism. I am not sure there is a need to counter it at all. People who subscribe to those notions and people who write such articles (let's call them "cultural marxists" as you did - even if it is not 100% accurate, I can't find a better term) - are beyond reasoning. They are certified insane. What is important is to bring such ideas to light and show them to the people who are not yet hopeless as a clear demonstrations of where leftist "progressive" ideas end. They cannot lead to anything but this, because the "pure" leftist ideas are so dumb and incompatible with reality, that the only way to actually uphold them is through a totalitarian terror regime, which causes insurmountable misery until it collapses on itself. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2021 3:52:11 GMT -5
Yeah, so the plan is to forcibly seize the power of the state, so they can forcibly collectivize the small businesses, so they can "fairly" redistribute their wealth. Been there done that. It doesn't help at all that the BLM co-founder is a "trained marxist". Others won't be so frank about their intentions. Don't listen to their lies for a moment. They are all snakes. Once these people get the power they WILL come for you. They just don't want to scare the normies who they will either recruit to their cause or crush them. |
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Lobo
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Post by Lobo on Feb 14, 2021 4:51:56 GMT -5
What exactly is a "fair" share of somebody elses hard work?
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Post by joe-ilya on Feb 14, 2021 8:32:42 GMT -5
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Post by deathevokation on Feb 16, 2021 14:13:04 GMT -5
are riots and looting happening in other parts of the world now or something? has the term "extremist" lost it's meaning yet?
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