40oz
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Post by 40oz on Dec 1, 2020 10:41:03 GMT -5
In 1994, theres plenty bad maps that are -- plain and simple -- not worth your time for any reason. Aside from the obvious infancy of the Doom modding community, what do you think most accurately explains why old doom wads were such junk?
In the year 2020 I almost feel a kind of entitlement sometimes to expect a certain level of quality from new doom maps I play. Not perfect in every aspect but something special and adds to the entertainment in a way of the mappers choosing. A lot of 1994 wads, even without the critical eye, simply check none of the boxes.
Would it have been better if they had todays communitys' textures and music resources to pluck from? Could people tell if their maps were good or not when the IWADs were their main point of reference? Did the novelty of creating a custom FPS level from scratch override the necessity to actually make it good? Can they not see the glaring HOMs or confusing texture usage or that the theme makes no sense? Did they simply just upload whatever they had on their hard drive with no real discrimination? Did they not have any sort of channel to receive feedback or responses from their players? Was it too common for people to have computer hardware that didnt run old doom editing tools well?
What do you think it is? What are some of the main advantages that the 2020 doom mapper has today that early 90's mappers didn't?
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Post by dr_st on Dec 1, 2020 10:46:56 GMT -5
Aside from the obvious infancy of the Doom modding community, what do you think most accurately explains why old doom wads were such junk? I honestly don't think there is anything that better explains it aside from that. Or, more specifically, that is just a general statement that encompasses everything - the experience of the level authors, the quality of available tools, modding tricks yet to be discovered - all these take time. Two additional factors are the (in)existence of limit-removing and feature-enhancing source ports and the amount of accumulated content - as it increases, the good stuff tends to stand out among the bad and mediocre, and, in turn, raises the bar of what people consider good/acceptable to share.
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Lobo
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Post by Lobo on Dec 1, 2020 10:57:56 GMT -5
You can't compare now with then.
I remember holding my breath every time I hit save in case there was an error message and the wad got corrupted: the tools available have come a long way.
And I've been gone from the community for more than 10 years: the sheer amount of resources available these days is still incredible to me.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2020 11:23:37 GMT -5
The opening posts fucking bleeds toxicity all over the place, I can't pinpoint it to any single word but it smells flamebait.
In 1994, we (the family I am part of) heard of no fucking Internet. In mid 2000s, I finally had the Internet connection which was through the stationary phone line and a modem, and I was buying cards that granted a few hours of access and thus effectively paying for every second of connection. Picking a phone disrupted Internet connection, I also had no mobile phone at the time. I think I first got cable internet in 2008, now the pay was per Mb rather than per hour. I don't remember when I first got a mobile phone, though, but it was either the end 2000s or the beginning of 2010s.
So, perhaps English-speaking world had a bit better situation with the Internet, but I get it was still a luxury to many, so you just made something you can run, and it was a fucking novelty, like creating your own fucking world, and by sharing it you shared the joy you had when that realization happened. The directive to make it enjoyable to someone else simply didn't exist - the joy was imprinted in your mind when you made a map rather than in the result itself. The result was the fact that you made the map, not the kind of a map it was. I don't know if these words may help you understand but it is very easy to empathise with those people. It was not the feedback, there was no metric to satisfy - it was the "ability to create and breathe a new world into existence", and sharing was like on like leaving a note "VigilantDoomer was here" on some miniscule isolated planet which is later gets randomly visited by another person with no other human in vicinity, and that person discovering it.
Or at least that how it felt to me when I was watching porn pictures on the Internet when I was underage and the internet was effectively paid per second (that modem connection over a wired phone I wrote above). When I first got the internet, the father was constantly behind my shoulder, but later I was left to my own means of using internet, and so I began to look at the stuff that had nothing to do with education. Making a doom map in 1994 may have been triggering a similar kind of feeling. Today's internet is just cheap and without intimacy - there is plenty of porn, but the intimacy is not there anymore. Going on the internet today is like going naked in the crowd of naked people, every day, all the time, never putting on the dress and it hardly matters anymore.
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Post by mrneigh3000 on Dec 1, 2020 11:26:47 GMT -5
I think the problem back then is that they didn't have a reference point other than the doom maps. Time passed and new games with better map designs (like duke nukem, blood, etc) must have been the inspiration for many new maps that were much better, but at the time the only thing that could be for inspiration were the vanilla doom maps and the maps created by the community (those bad maps from the 90s) In addition, the community was very new, many novice players wanted to try a little of what mapping is and the lack of some experienced mappers was a problem, while a few others with original ideas tried their best with the few resources that were available at that time.
Therefore, the newness of the community, the lack of appropriate resources and the lack of real references were the reasons why those maps were so bad.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2020 11:30:27 GMT -5
Actually I just realized the toxicity of the opening post is actually quite simply - an accusation leveled at people who have since moved on with life, as if these fucking people owed you anything. [EDITED Ok, this thread actually provokes hard feelings in me, time to move on as well.]
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Post by mrneigh3000 on Dec 1, 2020 12:10:47 GMT -5
Actually I just realized the toxicity of the opening post is actually quite simply - an accusation leveled at people who have since moved on with life, as if these fucking people owed you anything. [EDITED Ok, this thread actually provokes hard feelings in me, time to move on as well.] Na, don't take my opinion seriously, Is something I think about this maps of the 90s, they didn't have the possibilities of today and nobody complain about that, those maps could be better? Yes, but at the time was an amazing thing; are bad maps? Some of them are and some of them are not that bad, and believe or not the 90s maps are my favorites to play and relax. Only is my opinion, and I respect those maps because was the beginning of everything we know in the doom community. Cheers bro
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Dec 1, 2020 12:28:17 GMT -5
So, perhaps English-speaking world had a bit better situation with the Internet, but I get it was still a luxury to many, so you just made something you can run, and it was a fucking novelty, like creating your own fucking world, and by sharing it you shared the joy you had when that realization happened. The directive to make it enjoyable to someone else simply didn't exist - the joy was imprinted in your mind when you made a map rather than in the result itself. The result was the fact that you made the map, not the kind of a map it was. I don't know if these words may help you understand but it is very easy to empathise with those people. It was not the feedback, there was no metric to satisfy - it was the "ability to create and breathe a new world into existence", and sharing was like on like leaving a note "VigilantDoomer was here" on some miniscule isolated planet which is later gets randomly visited by another person with no other human in vicinity, and that person discovering it. That's a good point, a seemingly an obvious one that I didn't even think about. That the existence of these wads, despite being on the internet, archived for users to download, that doesn't necessarily mean they were made for me. It could be that the user was just excited about the prospect of easily creating a 3D space that you can move virtually within. An examination of the tools and the possibilities maybe. The prospect of making it good was a thought that came with the evolution in Doom's popularity, not at it's inception. It may even have just been the excitement of knowing that you can communicate to someone far away using media. Like a message in a bottle, swept away by the ocean.
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Post by optimus on Dec 1, 2020 12:42:56 GMT -5
The early times are the most interesting as everything is new and people start experimenting without having a reference of what's considered good or bad. Of course it's good to learn to avoid some bad habits of the early times, but I kinda see nostalgically the first maps doing "funny" ugly things like regular walls being doors, etc. I try to imagine what it was to be making maps back then. I remember in 1996 when I first tried to learn using DEU (and now revisiting it from a DOS PC, I had forgotten how awkward certain things were) and was making a map trying to do many realistic shadows and broken rocks on the ground to hit the surprising for the time visplane error crash. Pretty much to my dissapointment, as I wanted to make a very detailed realistic map then The other thing that amazes me is the good 1994 maps. Some of the early stuff were too good for their time, I recently managed to run Aliens TC and even if it's awkward at first to try and find your way, I am surprised how someone managed to create the whole thing back in 1994 with the limited tools (and there were also a lot of dehacked tricks in the early 90s WADs which I am not familiar with).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2020 15:54:36 GMT -5
Say what you want, but playing tons of "bad" 1994 wads in early '10s is easily one of the most enjoyable experiences I ever had with Doom, and I think a big reason for this is exactly what vigilantdoomer said: they weren't necessarily made to be enjoyed by someone else. What this means to me is that loading up a 1994 wad is like landing on an alien planet where everyone speaks a different language and nobody is interested in helping you. Suddenly you're in a strange and hostile environment, the rules you're used to don't apply anymore, and noone is going to explain them. You just have to go and figure shit out on your own. For a fan of exploration it's like the coolest feeling imaginable, and one that's virtually nonexistent outside of very old "bad" wads. I feel like I never fully "recovered" from that dive into the unknown: I try different "good" wads and other games, but no matter where I look there is always this handholding aspect in level design that's so obvious to me now.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2020 16:52:44 GMT -5
You can't compare now with then. I remember holding my breath every time I hit save in case there was an error message and the wad got corrupted: the tools available have come a long way. Precisely. "Gee, I wonder why all these mappers who were using extremely rudimentary and limited editing software that barely worked and who had just finished playing through Doom maybe a month ago and had nothing but the iwads as inspiration and also weren't trying to impress some group of anime (content removed) on a forum didn't make more maps that I like!" The opening posts fucking bleeds toxicity all over the place, I can't pinpoint it to any single word but it smells flamebait. And indeed it is.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2020 3:52:07 GMT -5
Too much negativity towards 40oz here in my opinion. It's perfectly normal to marvel at the staggering technical incompetence of 1994 wads by modern standards. I often can't help but think the same about a lot of ancient art, for example, which had like no perspective, featured comical faces that seem completely out of place, etc. These artists had such a different mindset that unless you study history to some extent, you just wanna ask: were they fucking blind? In 2005, when a few people began recovering and uploading 1994 wads to the archive regardless of quality, they actually got a symbolic "worst wad" Cacoward, so it's not like trashing them to the ground is something new. In 2014 I also expressed my bewilderment about them in this thread: www.doomworld.com/forum/topic/68669-why-are-there-so-many-unmarked-doors-in-1994-wads/ Relax peeps!
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xeepeep
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Post by xeepeep on Dec 2, 2020 8:47:34 GMT -5
Probably lack of community that would determine what was good and what wasn't. I made my first map in 2016 before I joined doomworld and played any custom mapsets and it was just as bad as anything from 1994. Nobody knew back then what was "good gameplay" and what was intuitive and what looked good to most and all that stuff. Nowadays you can spend a month on doomworld, read a couple of threads, play a couple of wads and you'll know that doors should be obvious, height variation is good, detail is good, etc. If you need some texture you can just go, download the image you need or make one, find a tutorial on how to put it into a wad and you're good, back then I imagine it wasn't as easy.
But I'm talking out of my ass here, my parents were still coworkers in 1994 lol
Oh and also if you think the OP is "toxic" in any way, go take a walk or something
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2020 11:37:19 GMT -5
xeepeep, there is stark contrast between first and second post by 40oz, the second one is not toxic, also I specifically meant post and not the person. I said before that I can't pinpoint it to certain words but actually I can. What is wrong is that the original post declares constraints which themselves should be called into question, and it uses value-laden language to define these constraints. 1. "In 1994, theres plenty bad maps that are -- plain and simple -- not worth your time for any reason." Notice the language "plain and simple", "not worth your time for any reason". First is assertion "this is self-evident, can't be disputed", second is "you feel/think the way I tell you you feel/think". Like in Nineteen Eighy-Four, where O'Brien explains how the mode of though of authority (those in the power) evolved over time, from "Thou shall", to "You must", to " You are", where counter-point becomes not just forbidden, but inexpressible. 2. "old doom wads were such junk", "check none of the boxes" - once again, the original poster's opinion, but not mine. There was a thread on Doomworld which was meant for people who would be interested in playtesting wads other people make before they are posted public, and there was one person who told he wants only playtest the very first maps people make, as they don't subscribe to any standards and often feature very original things. 3. "Did the novelty of creating a custom FPS level from scratch override the necessity to actually make it good?" Who declared there was such necessity at the time in first place? The entire paragraph from which I taken this assumes those people struggled to do good, but failed miserably at their own goals... but I think those people may have had other goals to begin with, and not necessarily failed them. 4. Implied (through value-laden language) but not explicitly written, is that the one who reads this is expected to like modern maps more than 1994 maps. But what if I actually consider modern maps to be not worth my time? Note that I said mine, not yours. I also remember the joy of making a small unbalanced Doom I monster slaughtermap with no exit (and the layout was as simple as it can be, a square box with a corridor attached, with monsters entering the box from the corridor at faster rate than you can kill them), which I played for hours non-stop day after day, and I can tell you I never had such joy playing any maps made by anyone else, nor have I spent so much time playing any single wad/mod like that except for maybe Brutal Doom. I kept adding more and more monsters until I could survive maybe 2 in 400 attempts (and who knows, may be even less), and I would just keep trying to beat that over and over again. I didn't release it, though, but just as a point - I have more time playing my own unfinished and very raw stuff than those modern maps. Anyway, I appeciate 40oz actually took time to understand my point, and succeeded at it.
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Post by JadingTsunami on Dec 2, 2020 13:44:59 GMT -5
I would say that some, maybe many, of the '94 maps were made simply for the joy of having created something that was playable on a computer, and then sharing that creation with others.
It's hard to understand that mindset from a modern standpoint where the act of creation and sharing is so common that it is taken for granted. In '94, attention was plentiful but content was scarce and difficult to produce. The opposite problem exists now where attention is so scarce it is practically a currency and content creation is push-button and plentiful.
Even the language of the original post shows this: WADs in '94 were "junk", "not worth your time", WADs must be "something special". The whole concept of your attention being so valuable and content being so abundant that you should critically meter your time out to only the most "worthy" sources would have been a foreign idea in 1994.
So the answer to me is, '94 WADs can be enjoyed as an archaeologist would enjoy a dig site: in the proper historical mindset and with the imagination of someone living at that time. No, the art form was not nearly as evolved as it is today. No, it will not live up to the standards of modern art. But, if you want an experience up to those standards, you have a practically bottomless well of content to draw from.
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Post by morpheuskitami on Dec 2, 2020 17:55:21 GMT -5
I get the feeling, and I could be full of it, that one of the more popular methods of distribution was through CDs with thousands of levels. Some of which were just found off the internet, and some of which were made for those compilations. The ones made for the compilations usually weren't very good. Might have been about quantity over quality.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2020 8:00:31 GMT -5
When I first started playing Doom and custom wads it was the late 90's, like is the case with a good handful of people here. I'd say probably about 1998 the first time I ever played custom Doom content (grew up with shareware and Doom2 tho), so all that existed were 1994-1998 wads. I'm pretty lucky in that all the wads I found back in the day have aged well, sometimes because of genuinely good design and sometimes because of novelty factor. Those wads were what inspired me to get into mapping myself, and finding the Doom community was what in turn led me to editors and such.
Even if a lot of the content from that era is shitty, it takes me back to a simpler time in my life and in Doom history which colors the experience a lot. I can imagine for someone who likes Doom but has no nostalgic or emotional attachment to Doom history, playing 1994 maps is probably utterly boring, but for me they represent a lost slice of culture preserved in time.
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Post by bulletspam on Dec 15, 2020 13:34:24 GMT -5
There is a lot of lackluster stuff out there I think. When you select "random" on the /idgames archive website you usually get something thats only semi decent. But, I can see how some 1994 doom wads were pretty cool at the time. It's an old game, you get what you pay for.
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