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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2020 11:37:32 GMT -5
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Nov 26, 2020 11:55:35 GMT -5
These concerns seem pretty legit. Are they bullying you?
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dn
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Post by dn on Nov 26, 2020 12:45:36 GMT -5
These concerns seem pretty legit. Are they bullying you? Hahaha. "Performative", quoth the outrage mob.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2020 13:50:57 GMT -5
These concerns seem pretty legit. Are they bullying you? These people are attempting to have their way by acting like a bunch of children. That's what crybullying is, except these are adults, which is pretty pathetic. In what way is he radicalizing people? According to whom? Who are these people and who do they think they are? Show me an example of him radicalizing people. He is AGAINST radicalization and spends a lot of time detailing exactly how people come to adopt nazism and communism and how those ideas are slowly creeping back in. Why do they bring up anti-racism? How is he racist? Also, these people are incredibly selfish. What if his work is incredibly helpful for aimless and depressed young people? Who do they think they are to stop that? I'm not saying he's the be-all-end-all of self-help but he opens many useful doors.
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Nov 26, 2020 15:09:26 GMT -5
You're laughing as you call them selfish and pathetic children from a place where they aren't even here to defend themselves. It sounds more like you're scrutinizing them over their perfunctory use of words like radicalization and racism.
So are they bullying you?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2020 15:34:52 GMT -5
Again the troll doesn't address your points and moves the goalposts, @doomro. Like I said, best to ignore him. The fact is that the people who want certain books to remain unpublished, who want to censor and scrub certain ideas from social media, who control the dissemination of information through algorithms that suppress certain results in search engine queries, and who've for years sought to eliminate their opponents from talk radio and TV, are almost overwhelmingly on the left. That should be enough to give anyone pause. stanfordreview.org/stanford-intolerant-left/
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Nov 26, 2020 16:02:37 GMT -5
Again the troll doesn't address your points and moves the goalposts, I asked doomro the question. It wasn't answered. I'm speaking for myself and when I talk to you, you should do the same. I believe changing people's minds to acknowledge non-binary genders is a huge uphill battle, and I see the connection between Jordan Peterson's political action (not his teachings about coping with depression; distinguish the two, please) and the deconstruction of all the work it takes to validate non-binary peoples' identities. I already know non-binary people aren't bullying you or anyone. I'm asking this question because its something you really ought to ask yourself. Where is all this resentment coming from? Do you really get satisfaction from talking down on these people? Calling them "crybullies" is exactly the same kind of attention-seeking misuse of language. Jordan Peterson wouldn't call them crybullies, and if he did, that would invalidate his teachings. Not his health issues.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2020 16:23:55 GMT -5
Again the troll doesn't address your points and moves the goalposts, I asked doomro the question. It wasn't answered. I'm speaking for myself and when I talk to you, you should do the same. I believe changing people's minds to acknowledge non-binary genders is a huge uphill battle, and I see the connection between Jordan Peterson's political action (not his teachings about coping with depression; distinguish the two, please) and the deconstruction of all the work it takes to validate non-binary peoples' identities. I already know non-binary people aren't bullying you or anyone. I'm asking this question because its something you really ought to ask yourself. Where is all this resentment coming from? Do you really get satisfaction from talking down on these people? Calling them "crybullies" is exactly the same kind of attention-seeking misuse of language. Jordan Peterson wouldn't call them crybullies, and if he did, that would invalidate his teachings. Not his health issues. Those employees think they're better than everyone and that they know better so yes, I get satisfaction from talking them down. I call them that because that is what they are. They are nothing but a bunch of selfish, manipulative, stupid, overgrown children. They don't have better arguments so they resort to temper tantrums to get like they want, just like little kids. The fact that they want to ban books that could help people shows that they only care about themselves and not at all about others. If they don't care about my problems why should I care about theirs? I hereby dedicate this song to the "poor" employees. This whole debacle reminds me of it.
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Nov 26, 2020 16:27:25 GMT -5
Those employees think they're better than everyone and that they know better so yes, I get satisfaction from talking them down. You don't even know their names. How do you know what they think?
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Post by optimus on Nov 26, 2020 18:25:20 GMT -5
Well, if we can accept books like "White fragility" and "In defense of looting", why are people getting so mad about the new JP book? That controversy will even have the Streisand Effect and make JP and his books more known. Last time I checked, the previous JP book was more like a self-help book, I don't think it said something very extreme, it's just that he is connected by the media with the alt-right and all that (everyone is called so these days, just criticise the far left orthodoxy).
p.s. Still need to finish the first JBP book anyway. I read the first chapter and then forgot it. I get lazy with books sometimes and never finish. Not pre-ordering this one before finishing.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2020 21:06:35 GMT -5
These concerns seem pretty legit. Are they bullying you? You should separate the concerns - legit as those may be - and the use of passive aggression to advance a political agenda of taking rights away from "priviliged" group and transferring them to "oppressed" group. Which is what this article does. Individuals who complained are not, in fact, bullies, but the media coverage presents their point of view and attempts to discredit the point of view of the author, which is no less valid by itself. What should have happening is that all the complaints should have stayed within the company and not covered in a fucking news article. Promoting acceptance of non-binary gender shouldn't require books to be effectively banned. I'm glad the publisher apparently stands for not giving preference to any political agenda, be it leftist or rightist ("We remain committed to publishing a range of voices and viewpoints." in their own words). P.S. "Privileged" and "oppressed" are quoted, because they are projections onto reality rather than reality.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2020 22:42:23 GMT -5
"Non-binary" people bully others all the time. In fact here's a video to prove it:
There's no such thing as "non-binary" anyways. That's a made-up class that anyone can join so that they can share victimhood status and have a license for shitty behavior. I could wake up tomorrow and go, "Oh I'm disgruntled, mentally unstable, and a failure in my life, so I think I'll just pretend to not be comfortable as a man(or a woman) even though I have an X and a Y chromosome and I was quite literally born a dude. Now I'm a "non-binary" piece of shit, and you have to think I'm stunning and brave even though I am a black hole that adds nothing to society, a walking parasite that exists to rabble-rouse and spread AIDS. Go me." It worked for Chris Chan, and it'll work for you, too.
No society that values truth or strives for excellence should validate "non-binary" people's identities.
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Nov 26, 2020 23:53:15 GMT -5
Bob, come on, you're being a troll. We've talked over and over again about sensational news propaganda. It's not even disguising itself. Rebel news? That's who you trust?
Of course this particular person is "the bully" when a pragmatically toned news-voice reporter is telling us what to think before showing us the carefully edited peak reaction video without showing any context or anything that lead up to the event. "Yaniv is just a renegade bully because that's what the news told me!"
This is the same circle we keep going through. Let's go back and forth all day. Now, you defend an entire group starting with the worst person I can find. Yay! We're debating!
This question goes to you too. Same goal posts. I don't care about other people. I care about you. When were you bullied by a non-binary person? I already know the answer. Because if you ever have you would have cited that first, wouldn't you?
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dn
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Post by dn on Nov 27, 2020 0:06:52 GMT -5
40, Yaniv is not the hill to die on. Pull the troops off that hill, stat. That hill is mentally ill, that hill is a serial sexual predator that follows young girls into bathrooms to raid tampon bins for delicious fresh mensies. That hill sues filippino waxing salons for refusing to fondle his balls. That hill looms six foot tall in front of 4 foot POC and threatens them with bankruptcy unless they touch his female penis. That hill - *that* festering mound of monumental excrement - is the reason why there is such backlash against gender fluidity, because this hill is a cowardly rapist enabled by gender theory and the walking, shrieking proof that certain men will take transgender "rights" and use them for their own financial gain and sexual gratification.
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Nov 27, 2020 0:22:06 GMT -5
dn, I don't want to die on a hill for Yaniv. The few self-identifying nonbinary people I've met are totally cool. They don't find progress by going out of their way to defend the shitty people that conservative youtube posts videos of either. The counterpoint for me is to find some kkklansman who subscribes to Jordan Peterson and expect doomro and bob page to defend Jordan Peterson though the kkklansman's actions. But that obviously does a huge disservice to people who are totally cool and could use Peterson's help. That's a fallacious arguing style to begin with that's just meant to exhaust people.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2020 1:19:43 GMT -5
I really could care less what we've discussed in the past. I don't care about your thoughts on so-called "sensational news propaganda". I don't care if you think you "already know the answer". Whether or not I or anyone in this thread has been bullied by some rainbow flag-waving delusional sodomite has no bearing on what opinions I can have or what I'll post as my arguments. We're wise to your game. Every time you disagree with someone, you attempt to discredit them by first attacking their evidence as "propaganda", and then by attempting to invalidate their argument because they don't have the requisite amount of firsthand experience. Then we get to hear some anecdotal experience about how you went to one or two BLM rallies and nobody chimped out so BLM and Antifa are all swell, or how you know one or two troons who didn't actively bully you so queers aren't bullies.
We get it, you're a leftist from PA who's listened to one too many Aus Rotten records and now you think you've got it all figured out. Fantastic. You work in data, so you have a perfect grasp of which information sources are good and which ones are bogus. Terrific. I'm not interested in having a debate, and I'm not looking to learn anything. I've had plenty of time to develop my core beliefs and value system. I'm interested in posting what I think, and people can take it or leave it as they see fit.
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dn
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Post by dn on Nov 27, 2020 1:47:38 GMT -5
dn , I don't want to die on a hill for Yaniv. The few self-identifying nonbinary people I've met are totally cool. They don't find progress by going out of their way to defend the shitty people that conservative youtube posts videos of either. The counterpoint for me is to find some kkklansman who subscribes to Jordan Peterson and expect doomro and bob page to defend Jordan Peterson though the kkklansman's actions. But that obviously does a huge disservice to people who are totally cool and could use Peterson's help. That's a fallacious arguing style to begin with that's just meant to exhaust people. That's just it tho: ignoring people like Yaniv as "not representative of non-binary people" is ignoring a child predator in your midst because it's not politically expedient to deal with them, it's easier to sweep this shit under the rug than it is to deal with the fallout. This happens time and time again: celebrity wokebro feminists who turn out to be casting couch rapists, Kero the Tolerance Wolf who was raping his dog, Sara "I want to fuck toddlers" Nyberg, et al. et al. etc. Every time this shit is pointed out the wagons circle around the dog monglers and the "it's just drawings" shotacon enthusiasts; it does more damage to progressive politics than some mad kkklansman with a swastika tattoo ever could because it's an in-your-face statement of intent -- "We Will Protect Rapists If They Think Like We Do." Also, how exactly *does* Peterson endanger non-binary people? By arguing against the institution of a law that would have destroyed freedom of speech? Because respecting pronouns is a courtesy, nothing more, and courtesies are earned, not enshrined in law under threat of punishment. Fuck that and fuck the inherent hypocrisy of writing laws to protect yourself and punish others for wrongthink: that is the very definition of the imperialistic privilege that the fucking left is meant to be fighting against. Privi-legium, aka: privilege, aka: Private Law. Rules for thee but not for me OwO
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2020 6:35:39 GMT -5
The counterpoint for me is to find some kkklansman who subscribes to Jordan Peterson and expect doomro and bob page to defend Jordan Peterson though the kkklansman's actions. You will not only not find such a person since the hard right doesn't like Peterson because he is against all identity politics and I would not try to defend Peterson through some klansman's actions. The fact that you think I would proves to me that you are not worth my time and replying to.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2020 7:47:15 GMT -5
I think I'm with doomro here. I guess I understand that it can be hard to publish an author you strongly disagree with, but in my opinion these guys need to get their priorities straight. Like it says at the end of the article, publishing companies are supposed to provide a platform for a wide variety of voices. They should strive to facilitate open debate and be excited about the opportunity to feature a hot, highly relevant author instead of trying to shut him down. And it is pretty pathetic of them to cry and then make some sort of public statement about that. That is indeed on the baby level of discussion skills and it's not going to persuade anyone with a functional brain. "Bawww he made me cry so he's the bad one!" If you want to win someone over, let them have their say and then explain why they are wrong intelligently. That's the only civilized way.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2020 10:47:36 GMT -5
@memfis, by itself, it is appropriate to discuss things that bother you at work in an internal company meeting. In particular, you might indeed want to indicate to your employer that some things you did, or company did, impacts you negatively, as this may hinder your performance or even make you want to resign. This way, employer can maybe find a way to address these concerns. The bad things about this situation is how it got portrayed on the news, and here I agree with 40oz that your hatred towards the people within the company themselves is misdirected. It should instead be directed at media that chose to present this narrative. A media is like a lense, it distorts things out of their proportion and can make insignificant events seem significant and vice versa, as well as misrepresent people's opinion to promote some political agenda. A lot of LGBT and non-binary people are not activists, and among them there are also people who don't believe left-wing serves their interests. Believe it or not, they are people too, and they may want to actually have free speech, express controversial views, change their mind and be forgiven for that. As for representation, I don't understand why we should take a pedophile as an example of non-binary person any more than a straight pedophile as an example of straight person. They are indeed not fucking representative, believe it or not. And a man who is a politician is not representative of men in general either, because politicians are very particular breed of people, the one who are apt at lying to others, at telling whatever lies to keep themselves in power.
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Nov 27, 2020 12:59:36 GMT -5
I'm not looking to learn anything. I've had plenty of time to develop my core beliefs and value system. I'm interested in posting what I think, and people can take it or leave it as they see fit. This thread really isn't of any concern to you then, is it? Furthermore, concerns about censorship and leftists taking the law into their own hands can kindly be discarded due to the following: 1. There's more than one publishing company in the world. 2. Penguin Random House Canada published Jordan Peterson's book anyway.
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Post by bulletspam on Nov 27, 2020 13:20:33 GMT -5
you can self publish too.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2020 14:31:14 GMT -5
The bad things about this situation is how it got portrayed on the news, and here I agree with 40oz that your hatred towards the people within the company themselves is misdirected. It should instead be directed at media that chose to present this narrative. A media is like a lense, it distorts things out of their proportion and can make insignificant events seem significant and vice versa, as well as misrepresent people's opinion to promote some political agenda. Maybe, but then again at the beginning of the article it says that the company people contacted media (Vice) themselves, so they are at least partially responsible for this Shameful Display™. It's true that journalists might have seriously exaggerated the whole thing though.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2020 18:00:15 GMT -5
1. The problem with those employees and people like them is that they make their movements look bad If you act like a spoiled, immature crybaby over a damn book then why should anyone take you seriously? If they got their way then it would show that acting like this is a legitimate way to get your way and that is not acceptable. How can a reasonable dialogue be established with such people? If dialogue can't be established then you can't convince normal people like me to accept you so you will have to force us through the law. In fact, this is what Peterson is against.
2. Banning the book might set a bad precedent. Right now, the left and hard left control most of the media. What if in a few years it changes around and hard right people get in power and ban YOU instead?
3. ALL forms of speech need to be allowed. I don't agree with books like "White Fragility" and especially not "In Defence of Looting" but banning them would cause a lot more harm in the long run. For one, I want to know exactly what these people are up to and the whole world to see as well.
4. If you think his book is harmful, even full of bad, incoherent advice , make detailed videos about why and encourage other people to do so as well. If people aren't listening then maybe you're not right after all.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2020 19:08:56 GMT -5
Furthermore, concerns about censorship and leftists taking the law into their own hands can kindly be discarded due to the following: 1. There's more than one publishing company in the world. 2. Penguin Random House Canada published Jordan Peterson's book anyway. No, they can't be kindly discarded - the censorship shouldn't be normalized and the companies must not be under any pressure to withhold publications based on them being written by far right/alt-right or the authors supported by/endorsing far right or alt-right. The tone of the media article is very concerning, and especially that of original media article by Vice (can be found via a link from the media article posted here), thanks @memfis for bringing attention to the fact the employees did in fact contact press... unless it's a sham. For example, here is this very fucked up quote (from www.vice.com/en/article/g5bv3x/penguin-random-house-staff-confront-publisher-about-new-jordan-peterson-book ): I hope there is a way for company to sue these employees, if they actually exist and are not made up by Vice. This is a statement about company internal affairs, it is not even remotely acceptable for it to be shared with media, and is a libel if actually not true. Maybe, but then again at the beginning of the article it says that the company people contacted media (Vice) themselves, so they are at least partially responsible for this Shameful Display™. It's true that journalists might have seriously exaggerated the whole thing though. Thanks for correcting me. If they really did that, they deserve to be trashed. Also, there is this in the Vice article: What a significant correction - the concerns are presented not by a person who is themselves non-binary, rather, a person who is not themselves affected is using other people to make statements. Who knows if the non-binary person actually shares this opinion, or maybe they would value free speech more instead? And, in fact, it wouldn't be any better if it was a non-binary activist speaking on behalf of all non-binary persons, like they would naturally support the opinion of this one person. In short, I don't wish non-binary people suffer, BUT their concerns must never be a reason on whether to publish any book or not. And also and importantly, books that present LGBT side of view must NOT be considered to be morally superior to books that oppose them, or any other books for that matter. No one should be pressured into publishing LGBT books or donating to LGBT charities. The Vice promotes some really insane shit in that article. I hope West eventually will banish this cancer, of promoting "oppressed" social group concerns over that of general public.
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