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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2020 18:41:11 GMT -5
I saw this argument on another forum. Someone said that since Jordan Peterson got addicted to benzos, almost died and had to go to rehab, he is a hypocrite and a liar. Kinda makes sense: I guess you could compare him to a broke Wall Street reject who writes books on how to become financially successful. Why should we listen to his advice?
But then again, doesn't firsthand experience with depression make him more credible? And what about thousands of his clients and millions of his fans who claim that he was of tremendous help to them? Was it all bullshit just because he broke down? Can't a cigarette addict warn others about the dangers of smoking? What do you think?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2020 20:30:25 GMT -5
I'm not following your logic here, Memfis. Jordan Peterson is a psychologist who has famously criticized political correctness and it's rampant spread due to Western academia. I'm not familiar with a time where he spoke on how not to get addicted to Benzodiazepine. Besides, almost anyone can get addicted to painkillers after they are prescribed by a doctor. That's what the whole opioid epidemic is all about; that stuff is incredibly addictive, yet some people require it to deal with certain health issues.
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dn
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Post by dn on Nov 21, 2020 20:36:13 GMT -5
Would have been more impressive if he had owned it. He could have went full Terence McKenna mode, striding onstage to a song called "Wash your fucking Penis" with his head doused in gasoline and wreathes of fire shooting out of his face.
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Nov 21, 2020 22:47:03 GMT -5
Addiction is a controversial topic to some people. It's something that's been a little close to me during different times in my life. I don't believe there's anything I've tried that I know I'm addicted to, (but I can't seem to kick sugar for good). However I do know a few people in my life who know they are, each with different levels of intensity. A lot of things these people have in common with each other are pretty consistent to what the research mostly says it is.
Addiction is treated in the U.S. like a crime, sometimes personified as an extreme side effect to general recklessness and a lack of motivation or optimism. This is how the United States justice system chooses to view it. There's a medical and scientific way of examining the psychology behind addiction that has no bearing on it's relationship with the law. Most people who have had satisfactory experiences with their lives, had some of their dreams come true, and have had luck maintaining relationships with people in their lives often don't experience the intensity of addiction to some less addictive substances as those who haven't. This is because they are generally satisfied with the outcome of their lives and so the escape doesn't seem so satisfying.
For some people, the outcome of their life can be determined by factors completely out of their control, like growing up under the supervision of addict parents, having physically abusive siblings, sexually abusive relatives, having a shocking, terrifying, traumatic event in your life you can't never forget about, etc. It conflicts with your capacity to make sound logical decisions when these events often result in an emotional toll in your sober life, occupying enough bandwidth to make it very difficult to visualize your distant future accurately.
These types things often occur to people at a young age before they're able to make responsible decisions for themselves, and makes the feeling of addiction so much harder to fight. I don't think there's anyone who has had a generally good life who can slip into drug addiction because they were experiencing the peak of their downward spiral to laziness.
Maybe it looks like it because usually when you see them they're face down on the ground and nearly foaming at the mouth; but being a drug addict isn't easy by any stretch. It requires having a lot of difficult interactions with people. You have to lie about your relationship with the substance. You have to lie to the people you love. You have to make up stories about where you are and where you're going to be. Sometimes you make long elaborate concessions to your personal time to obtain more of the substance. Sometimes you have to conciously acknowledge to yourself that being on this drug is as good as your life will ever get. It becomes your spouse, life revolves around it, it becomes meaningless without it. It's hopelessly and painfully exhausting to live with. How is it that some people just don't quit it and do something easier?
It's definitely not the path of the lazy reckless person. It's a pretty sophisticated hijacking of the human desire. It's an illness and it needs to be treated as such.
Ive been told Jordan Peterson is the unnoficial spokesperson for the alt right. I think there's a little bit of weight to that accusation, but I can delineate whether his words are politically motivated or just speaking from where his credentials lie. I think Peterson is no different than anyone else. I believe in him when he thinks he's doing what's right for the world. I also think he's had to carry some emotional baggage in his life that likely colored his investment in the topic of psychology, and I think he's not immune to conditions of addiction. It's not a reflection of his integrity and discipline or his pursuit for truth.
I could be talking out of my ass about Peterson's situation because I haven't really been following him much lately and the circumstances might be more complex than how it was described here, but I'm pretty confident when addiction is involved that the addiction isn't a creation made fully by the user. I don't think it's wise to blame him for it.
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Post by deathevokation on Nov 22, 2020 0:26:32 GMT -5
Getting addicted to prescription medication is nothing new and is so easy in this day and age especially when there's a pill for everything.. I also got addicted to ritalin once because it helped me think clearly and countered other problems like being docile and unable to focus at all because long term effects of too many seizures and things went downhill when I got issued a prescription to take it alongside a longer lasting variation.. it doesn't make you a lesser person, there's people out there that have achieved amazing things but have much worse to their name than what Jordan has. Also it helps to see Jordan Peterson as a human and not as a deity that some people make him out to be.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2020 0:40:40 GMT -5
Never heard of this guy before, but, after looking for information of his health: 1. He had autoimmune reaction and the drugs he got addicted to were prescribed as medication. He didn't start drugs for recreational use. 2. After failing to get treatment for his developed addiction in US, he sought treatment in Russia - and it was actually good.
So, saying his health issues invalidate his teachings would be like saying having cancer invalidates one's teachings. No, his health issues don't invalidate his teachings in any way. Also, he would make a nice piece of propaganda about Russian medicine being superior to that of Western countries. Actually we are hard on drugs here, too, but only in Russia you can get treated of addiction to prescribed medication while the US can't treat shit.
Now if Russia was still Soviet, that would be a different thing. But if anything, Russia is viewed with reverence by a lot of confused European nationalists, so for those who see Jordan Peterson as a gateway to far right and alt-right, he kinda drived the point home with where he got treatment. His medical history reinforces his teachings instead of undermining them.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2020 6:36:23 GMT -5
This isn't related to his political views. I think the idea of the argument is that if Jordan Peterson is such a great psychologist who teaches people how to combat depression and sort out their lives, he should be a shining example of a successful person who is content with what they have, not a drug-addicted vegetable who talks about how life is suffering all the time. Like, if he has all these working recipes for success, why did he get into such deep shit? But I'm leaning more towards the point of views expressed by you guys. Indeed, it doesn't seem completely fair to blame him for what happened, and it's not like he's some kind of a god immune to health problems. It's a lot more complicated than that.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2020 8:02:31 GMT -5
Well, without a lengthy research into his writings and biography, I can't really give a honest evaluation to this, so below is a speculation.
I suppose he got into deep shit because he hit a physical health condition first, and like a compliant patient, was probably trying to abid by doctor's recommendations instead of calling them into question. When he realized he had an addiction he tried to withdraw, but withdrawal for this drug is particularly BAD, so he had to seek assistance how to really get the fuck off it. The turning point where he did obviously the wrong thing - and should have known it - is when he agreed to take an increased dose of drug after he was told his wife has terminal cancer. Although I have suspicion he would have developed an addiction regardless, because he was taking it long-term.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2020 11:02:48 GMT -5
I saw this argument on another forum. Someone said that since Jordan Peterson got addicted to benzos, almost died and had to go to rehab, he is a hypocrite and a liar. Kinda makes sense: I guess you could compare him to a broke Wall Street reject who writes books on how to become financially successful. Why should we listen to his advice? But then again, doesn't firsthand experience with depression make him more credible? And what about thousands of his clients and millions of his fans who claim that he was of tremendous help to them? Was it all bullshit just because he broke down? Can't a cigarette addict warn others about the dangers of smoking? What do you think? I'm not sure. He had some pretty rare reactions to the drugs but I can see merit in the argument that it damages his credibility, especially considering his "clean your room" mantra. I don't think it invalidates his ideas, it just shows how human he is. He wasn't taking drugs for pleasure. If he was a coke addict preaching about personal responsibility it would have been different. These were medications prescribed by his doctor. Medications that can have dire and unpredictable consequences. Honestly, it would be more beneficial if drugs like mushrooms and LSD were legal so we can study how we can incorporate them in therapy. The side effects for benzos are pretty horrific, especially in his case. Of course, big pharma and their government cronies will never allow it www.healthline.com/health-news/benefits-of-medical-mushroomsAll I can say is that he's been incredibly helpful for me even if I am wary of the fandom surrounding him. Not in the sense that they are "alt-right" (which is ludicrous) but in the sense that many of them treat him as he is some sort of prophet who can do no wrong. He is just as flawed as any other human and recent events show this. So I can see why some would argue that it damages his credibility. It does in my eyes too but not enough for me to disqualify him.
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BIG DICK NIGGA
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Post by BIG DICK NIGGA on Nov 22, 2020 12:00:06 GMT -5
My literally only source on this whole thing is this thread, but I believe that nothing can invalidate all the people he helped get through some things in life.
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Justince
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Post by Justince on Nov 22, 2020 12:26:59 GMT -5
Exactly right Xeep. If anything this guy has done or said has helped you personally then no, his teaching are not invalidated. He's a human being with human failings. Now if you're a sanctimonious fart-sniffing sack of dicks Like Dew, then his teachings were never valid because people I don't like might feel good about themselves and well can't have that can we.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2020 12:47:33 GMT -5
Ok, I tried to avoid mentioning dew so we could focus on the argument itself, but I guess now I can admit that this thread was influenced by his posts here.
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Nov 22, 2020 13:11:22 GMT -5
What credentials does dew have that makes him worth listening to about anything?
EDIT: holy shit, if you click on his profile, "See their activity" and read just his posts, if anyone else posted like dew does, that kind of attitude would probably get them banned from here. That guy is flying awfully close to the sun.
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Nov 22, 2020 13:35:10 GMT -5
talk about improving the quality of your posts. yikes
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2020 14:07:24 GMT -5
Even IF they are right, Peterson, along with others like himself were incredibly helpful for me. I don't think he's the greatest philosopher of our time and he is not that hard to understand but for depressed young men in their 20s like myself, with no direction in life he was exactly what I needed. I still have a lot of work to do but I am a lot better than I was three years ago. Again, there is merit in the argument that him taking benzos goes against his talking points but I don't think this completely invalidates him. If anything, it is an indictment of big pharma and their government cronies. I think the benzos he took are far far more dangerous than magic mushrooms, which can treat depression. There is something seriously wrong with this "medicine" when you take it as prescribed by your doctor and the consequences are so dire. Why legalize a much more effective treatment if that gets rid of your customers? Better pop dem pills boyo!
But to call him a "nazi" or "alt-right" demonstrates ignorance on the subject since he talked many times against nazism and how people end up having those kinds of ideas.
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Post by bulletspam on Nov 22, 2020 14:45:38 GMT -5
Jordan Peterson is something else. His brand of ideology has been the foundations of some of the worst people on the alt right and far right today and its only use has been an assault on progressive values, diversity and inclusion. He is a symptom of a lot of really unfortunate trends in society–or rather, his outsized level of influence is. He’s an uncharismatic and insignificant fringe figure who just happens to have a message some people want to hear and that’s why he’s suddenly not fringe. He’s not nearly as brilliant as anyone thinks he is
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2020 14:47:02 GMT -5
Jordan Peterson is something else. His brand of ideology has been the foundations of some of the worst people on the alt right and far right today and its only use has been an assault on progressive values, diversity and inclusion. He is a symptom of a lot of really unfortunate trends in society–or rather, his outsized level of influence is. He’s an uncharismatic and insignificant fringe figure who just happens to have a message some people want to hear and that’s why he’s suddenly not fringe. He’s not nearly as brilliant as anyone thinks he is GR8B8M8 8/8
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Post by bulletspam on Nov 22, 2020 14:56:37 GMT -5
Well, he’s a vocal opponent of ‘political correctness’. He’s the sort of guy who touts religion and traditional gender roles and family models as an antidote to rising chaos in the world. its the stuff conservative dillweeds like to hear
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2020 15:01:50 GMT -5
Well, he’s a vocal opponent of ‘political correctness’. He’s the sort of guy who touts religion and traditional gender roles and family models as an antidote to rising chaos in the world. its the stuff conservative dillweeds like to hear You're gonna have to try harder.
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Nov 22, 2020 18:46:37 GMT -5
Well, he’s a vocal opponent of ‘political correctness’. He’s the sort of guy who touts religion and traditional gender roles and family models as an antidote to rising chaos in the world. its the stuff conservative dillweeds like to hear I agree with you, a lot of the problems in the world have nothing to do with religion, traditional gender roles and family values. There's a lot of factors that make people feel worthless and powerless that are completely out of our control. I do think he's pretty smart and has helpful things to say if you listen to his lectures rather than his debates with the media. also hi and welcome
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Post by thundercunt on Nov 22, 2020 19:09:41 GMT -5
My literally only source on this whole thing is this thread
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dn
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Post by dn on Nov 22, 2020 21:23:59 GMT -5
His brand of ideology has been the foundations of some of the worst people on the alt right and far right today and its only use has been an assault on progressive values, diversity and inclusion. You've got the cart before the house here. Angry, disenfranchised dudes don't exist because of Peterson's ideology: Angry, disenfranchised dudes exist therefore Peterson's ideology. So what is actually the cause of the angry, disenfranchised dudes? Might be those ideologies on the other side of the aisle, those espousing progressive values, diversity and inclusion. Angry disenfranchised dudes are getting annoyed by the fact that some holier-than-thou fucks keep on volunteering them for martyrdom on the altar under the bus wheels of progressive politics.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2020 11:13:58 GMT -5
He just posted a new video.
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Post by optimus on Nov 24, 2020 3:43:47 GMT -5
I saw this argument on another forum. Someone said that since Jordan Peterson got addicted to benzos, almost died and had to go to rehab, he is a hypocrite and a liar. Kinda makes sense: I guess you could compare him to a broke Wall Street reject who writes books on how to become financially successful. Why should we listen to his advice? But then again, doesn't firsthand experience with depression make him more credible? And what about thousands of his clients and millions of his fans who claim that he was of tremendous help to them? Was it all bullshit just because he broke down? Can't a cigarette addict warn others about the dangers of smoking? What do you think? Yeah, I never understood most people's reaction after the news. Everybody thinks JP was like a self help guru chad who utter things like "strap on your boots" and "absolute no failure bro!", one that cannot ever be fallible. People hear "drugs" and think "oh he got drugs to solve his problems" but it was medical drugs and suggested by his doctor and he didn't expect the side effects. It's not like one day he was "Yey, fuck discipline, I am gonna have fun with some cocaine or something!". And I never thought of JP as the absolute badass chad as some take him. He was trying to help and he believed in persuading the youth to actively try to improve in their life instead of grieving about it. I guess "stand up with your shoulders back" or "fix your bed" kinda sounds like another way of saying "strap on your boots", but I didn't take it exactly like that. I never thought of him as the chad guru badass that cannot fail. And anyway, his failure makes him more likeable to me, and possibly if he really had the badass chad paradigm as people claim, his experience might have changed him a bit and make him more compassionate.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2020 2:28:30 GMT -5
I think something positive can come out of this. Regardless of what you think about him, before his self-help era he was (and is) a highly accomplished clinical psychologist. His science in the field is rock solid as far as I know and already had a reputation in the field before he became widely popular (and unpopular for some). He could be a figurehead against these kinds of "therapies", what their dangers are and could help promote alternative treatments in a clinical setting, such as magic mushrooms. I don't think it's possible to legalize them in all countries but maybe it's possible to do so in a controlled setting with lots of science to back it up. www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/01/200128115423.htmwww.psychologytoday.com/us/articles/201705/radical-new-approach-beating-addictionDon't think benzos can do this.
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