40oz
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Post by 40oz on Mar 9, 2020 10:27:21 GMT -5
The name of the reviewer escapes me, but I was watching a video game reviewer on youtube who criticized 90's old-school shooters such as Doom, Duke Nukem 3D and Quake as "power fantasies"
I think such as these games reward the player for contextless and excessive violence, with no background on the bad guys youre violently killing.
Im not sure how i feel about this. Playing doom doesnt at all feel like "power" to me. What do you think?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2020 11:32:24 GMT -5
If by power fantasy, he means easier, I remember a lot of games back in the 80s and 90s being a lot harder than Doom. But only because of shitty design, and clunky controls.
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Post by bigolbilly on Mar 9, 2020 11:39:26 GMT -5
Imho Doom is considerably ambiguous on this issue. Certain choices do put it more in the realm of "power fantasy"--the gibbing mechanic on lower-tier enemies, Doomguy's occasional status bar smile and messages like "find some meat!" and "You got the BFG9000! Oh, Yes." Some of Doom 2's combat is more geared towards this, especially with the addition of the SSG, which adds another dimension of visceral satisfaction to taking down hordes of trash enemies and blasting through the meat of mid-tiers. With the popularity of Doom 2016, Brutal Doom, the Doom comic, etc. it seems like this is the more-remembered side of Doom as a cultural product. But, of course, one of the interesting (and to me compelling) things about Doom is how it often treads the line between power fantasy and DIS-empowerment fantasy. Doom 1 arguably has more survival-horror elements, and certainly felt even closer to that to newcomers in the 90s than it does today. The names of most of the difficulty settings and the emphasis on moody lighting and mysterious/dangerous/cryptic locales don't exactly scream power fantasy, either. And most people don't exactly feel empowered when playing E4's early map sequence! There's a recurring motif in Doom of overwhelming the player and making them struggle for survival--you see this in the D1 title screen, but also Nightmare! difficulty, D2's IoS battle, and the use of monster closets and traps (even extending into D2's meatier combat). On a deeper, mechanical level, I think Doom is tonally ambiguous in a slightly different way. If you strip away the surface theming of "demon murder simulator," underlying it all are many little systems that focus on movement and space. The game doesn't overtly present things this way, but most seasoned Doom players get to the point where combat often feels like a dance with the monsters, especially since advanced play focuses so much on movement and managing how monsters interact with each other through infighting. Higher-level play is more like cooperative improvised choreography with the monsters to deactivate them and secure one area before moving onto another. (In a weird way, HDoom isn't totally off-base mechanically--traditional "combat" is sort of about "satisfying" monsters' distinct demands until they reach a state of resolution and let you move on to further "partners".) In conclusion, Doom is a land of contrasts
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joe-ilya
Hey, Ron! Can we say 'fuck' in the game?
a simple word, a simple turd
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Post by joe-ilya on Mar 9, 2020 12:34:56 GMT -5
I feel powerful when overcoming challenges, but overcoming doesn't mean "Power Fantasy" if you have to work for it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2020 15:03:04 GMT -5
I do get creeped out by action games sometimes. It's hard to believe that someone can kill realistic-looking harmless civilians in GTA every day without that affecting their psyche at all. Yeah yeah yeah, we know that this stuff is imaginary, but the same can be said about books and movies, which undeniably shape our perception of reality. I wonder if a hundred years from now on all this violent media will be considered extremely barbaric, kinda like the Colosseum with its gladiators. This doesn't usually bother me in Doom since it's quite cartoonish but I can imagine a more sensitive person feeling bad about killing all these monsters, especially cacodemons.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2020 18:02:27 GMT -5
The bigger question is "What the fuck is wrong with power fantasies?" That reviewer sounds like a cucked, boring loser. All video games are fantasies where the player becomes someone or something else. What good video game doesn't involve you taking the role of someone with at the very least a very, very above-average set of skills? Furthermore, the enemies in Doom are hellspawn bent on destroying Earth, I think that justifies killing them all savagely, no more "background" on the foes is necessary. I really don't get why people feel the need to apologize for playing Doom or any other game. If some doesn't approve, they're trash, simple as that.
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Post by thundercunt on Mar 9, 2020 18:45:30 GMT -5
That reviewer sounds like a cucked, boring loser
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joe-ilya
Hey, Ron! Can we say 'fuck' in the game?
a simple word, a simple turd
Posts: 3,073
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Post by joe-ilya on Mar 9, 2020 20:21:02 GMT -5
I bet that reviewer will LOVE this game :
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Mar 10, 2020 12:15:58 GMT -5
I do get creeped out by action games sometimes. It's hard to believe that someone can kill realistic-looking harmless civilians in GTA every day without that affecting their psyche at all. Yeah yeah yeah, we know that this stuff is imaginary, but the same can be said about books and movies, which undeniably shape our perception of reality. I wonder if a hundred years from now on all this violent media will be considered extremely barbaric, kinda like the Colosseum with its gladiators. This doesn't usually bother me in Doom since it's quite cartoonish but I can imagine a more sensitive person feeling bad about killing all these monsters, especially cacodemons. There's a reason gamers get frustrated when people say video games are too violent. We're able to think critically. It's obvious to us that the rules of these in-game worlds are contained in these in-game worlds and don't bleed out into our daily lives. When people say these games are rotting our minds, its insulting to our intelligence. Our minds are way ahead of the game. The bigger question is "What the fuck is wrong with power fantasies?" That reviewer sounds like a cucked, boring loser. All video games are fantasies where the player becomes someone or something else. What good video game doesn't involve you taking the role of someone with at the very least a very, very above-average set of skills? Furthermore, the enemies in Doom are hellspawn bent on destroying Earth, I think that justifies killing them all savagely, no more "background" on the foes is necessary. I really don't get why people feel the need to apologize for playing Doom or any other game. If some doesn't approve, they're trash, simple as that. Some people see games as interactive fiction. I know some people who can't get into Doom simply because of its lack of context. They like having a sense of purpose, and an unfolding plot. The dexterity, repetitive action and the empty voids of story you have to fill with your imagination just isn't enough for them. It is for me, but it makes sense to me too.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2020 12:49:59 GMT -5
I do get creeped out by action games sometimes. It's hard to believe that someone can kill realistic-looking harmless civilians in GTA every day without that affecting their psyche at all. Yeah yeah yeah, we know that this stuff is imaginary, but the same can be said about books and movies, which undeniably shape our perception of reality. I wonder if a hundred years from now on all this violent media will be considered extremely barbaric, kinda like the Colosseum with its gladiators. This doesn't usually bother me in Doom since it's quite cartoonish but I can imagine a more sensitive person feeling bad about killing all these monsters, especially cacodemons. Funny thing about the gladiatorial games was that they were not in practice for hundreds of years before Caligula revived them. To the Roman people, it must have been absolutely outrageous (and awesome) to see such a spectacle that they had only heard of from history.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2020 13:12:31 GMT -5
There's a reason gamers get frustrated when people say video games are too violent. We're able to think critically. It's obvious to us that the rules of these in-game worlds are contained in these in-game worlds and don't bleed out into our daily lives. When people say these games are rotting our minds, its insulting to our intelligence. Our minds are way ahead of the game. I'm not so sure about that. Personally, I feel like I can clearly see how my attitude towards various things slightly changes depending on what I've been playing (and watching and reading and listening) recently. Different games definitely put me in different moods. Which isn't surprising at all since they aren't just mindless entertainment but a form of art, and art is a tool that we use to learn more about the world and ourselves. I think our mind's ability to discern reality from fiction is much weaker than we would like to think. Just look at dreams, which are 100% bullshit and yet we find them so convincing while sleeping. I'm pretty sure that the media we consume implants a lot of subconscious stuff in our brains that's beyond our control, or at least can't be controlled all the time since it would require too much mental energy. But we can control what gets there by choosing to avoid certain things, like violent shooters, for example. Another scary thing, by the way, is that the development of virtual reality technologies makes games more and more convincing, greatly increasing their influence on us. I dunno, it just seems disingenuous and overconfident to claim that you're in complete control of what's happening in your head while playing games.
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dmdr
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Post by dmdr on Mar 11, 2020 4:48:59 GMT -5
oddly enough I agree with memfis. there's been studies that show games can increase aggression in the short term (although nothing that would indicate long-term personality warping effects a la jack thompson) so they clearly do affect one's mood. see also world of warcraft and other games that exercise a compulsion on the player. as another example, I once saw a steam review for age of empires 2 in which the reviewer opined that playing aoe2 was a better way to learn history than paying attention in school, so people are obviously drawing information about the world from them too. This is probably way sjw types and other goobers are/were so interested in them, ie. they have propaganda value, perceived or real.
calling games 'art' is 100% gay though. Things that resemble art aren't necessarily art -- art is supposed to communicate timeless truths aka be beautiful (which is why most historical monumental art pieces are religious in nature. See eg. the parthenon, medieval cathedrals, mosques, buddhist sculptures, byzantine icons etc. etc.) -- and games are amusements, and as such are more of a craft. And no plop eggs (https://jezebel.com/heres-a-woman-plopping-paint-eggs-out-of-her-vagina-1566693939) and other worthless, degraded and degrading modern 'art' isn't either.
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Post by bigolbilly on Mar 11, 2020 14:08:12 GMT -5
idk I would call this bathroom sex simulator game by the great Robert Yang 100% gay and 100% art
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dmdr
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Post by dmdr on Mar 12, 2020 3:09:48 GMT -5
man I know you're just trollin me (it's working btw) but this was what I was talking about. The moment I realised I hated modern art was when I was at a friend's, and some other people's, exhibition opening and I asked his gf what this cloth sculpture of a stump she'd made was supposed to represent and she told me that it was a stump she remembered playing by as a kid. I mean that's nice but you're selling that shit so why should anybody else care? paint a picture of something cool like a naked viking babe fighting a neanderthal instead (also NOT ART but better than a stump, ffs). in any case what we have there exists to help some dipshit live out his stupid fantasy of slobbering over some uncanny valley looking motherfucker's piss-dripping but blessedly aids free glock (content removed). Yang's so far up his own arse he doesn't even realise that glocks didn't even exist until like the 80s, get some attention to detail cunt.
a while ago I read most of George Catlin's indian portrait travelogue (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Catlin) -- fyi, volume one goes into lots of detail and is dope, volume two is pretty much just 'I went here and saw these dudes, then I went there and saw those dudes' so I tapped out halfway through that one -- and it's a pretty good example of what I'm talking about, the indians thought representational painting was magic and would flip their shit if Catlin tried to paint one of the pathetic effeminate men or icky icky chicks since something so obviously numinous should be reserved for people who are worthy of respect and allowing others to access such a wellspring would degrade the former. Closer to my home the whole 'aboriginal dot painting' thing originally started as a means to conceal the actual, magically significant art underneath (https://www.aboriginal-art-australia.com/aboriginal-art-library/aboriginal-dot-art-behind-the-dots/). As I mentioned in another thread I'm currently (v. e. r. y. s. l. o. w. l. y.) reading C. P. Fitzgerald's China : a short cultural history, and one of the things he talked about a bit was how vastly technically superior the 'terracotta army' was to later chinese sculpture (not an art form the chinese have ever had much of an interest in, to be fair, since it was an imported form and generally only associated with weirdo foreign bullshit), which was primarily buddhist and not particularly anatomically accurate. But then the terracotta army was just plain chucked in a hole and forgotten about since it didn't have any real symbolic meaning (beyond it's practical value as servants in the afterlife ofc.) while the technically crappy stuff meant something. anyway blah blah look at my incredible erudition, the point I'm trying to make is even art made by primitive and/or ancient societies was about more than just the artist's whims.
this is mostly an error within the English language, probably replicated in continental babble too but who cares about that, like we're using this word 'art' to refer to stuff that is produced in the same way that art is produced, ie. with hammer and chisel, brush or pen blah blah. This is the renaissance's (aka the worst shit that ever happened) fault, since that was when the technical sophistication of art and it's imitators shot through the roof so it became worthwhile to use art-like activities to do stupid shit like feed the egos of retarded late-period oriental despot wannabes by painting them looking all cool shootin some b ball outside of the school, and eventually this kind of self-aggrandising garbage came to be associated with art in general. So how can we talk about these distinctions without massive confusion?
thanks for reading this bizarre stream of consciousness rant btw. You did well to get this far
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Post by bigolbilly on Mar 12, 2020 6:21:40 GMT -5
Heh, interesting rant. I think we have pretty different takes on art that maybe can't be worked out in a "doom as a power fantasy" thread, heh.
I'll stick up for Yang, though, who I think is a legitimately interesting and cool game designer. It's worth pointing out at least that the game above, while self-consciously outrageous, is much more than a narcissistic pervy fantasy. It's an adaptation of a famous sociological study, Tearoom Trade by Laud Humphreys (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tearoom_Trade), that examined the culture that had developed among men who had sex with men in 1960s America, and how they had developed this complex system of silently communicating with each other in bathrooms and other cruising spots so that they could hook up without getting busted by the police. So the game's cheekily playing with a rich history of American gay male culture and historical memory. I don't have any particularly strong investment how one draws the boundaries around what art is or isn't, but there's at least some parallel between the game and capital-A religious art, which also is always about putting a creative twist on culturally powerful symbols and systems of meaning/interaction.
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dmdr
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Post by dmdr on Mar 12, 2020 20:05:03 GMT -5
well, that does add a bit of depth to the game but just to be clear, ART in the sense I insist on using the term is a vessel of cultural continuity rather than just something that makes reference to another cultural artifact. Out of the examples I used above the one where this is clearest is the Aboriginal dot painting thing where the gentleman who started the whole thing was looking for a way to keep secret cultural knowledge out of the hands of others (the fact that very few westerners would be able to decode Aboriginal sacred art notwithstanding). Another example would be medieval Christian art, particularly Orthodox art, which was quite specifically intended as a means to transmit Christian legendry to illiterates who couldn't participate in the written culture. Catholicism had similar debates regarding opulence in churches, which while less obviously didactic than Eastern forms, was still intended to provoke a feeling of awe in the peasantry and other churchgoers (I don't think necessarily as a prelude to obedience to church figures, which is excessively cynical and ignores that people really believed in this stuff back then, including if not especially the people doing the building, but rather to ensure the correct posture towards God). I'm leaning hard on the religious aspects here but really religion and culture are the same thing (I know this might be controversial to Westerners, but frankly the 'separation of Church and state' is a product of our specific historical circumstances; see the specific ritual role of early, and probably later but I'm not that far in the book yet lolololol, Chinese emperors, Islam in it's entirety, and the fact the upper classes in pre-Christian Roman and Norse cultures, at the very least, were also the priesthood. Actually getting back to Catlin, one of the things he mentions is that someone who displays magical prowess will quickly rise in esteem, so the links between religious and temporal power seem pretty universal across cultures). I was tempted to call secular art an oxymoron in my last post, but it's just as well I didn't since I would have made myself look stupid(er) -- paintings of historical events would be one such example, as they can connect someone with their history. This kind of art seems to have been quite popular in the 19th century for some reason. anyway, based on the trailer you posted (not gonna play it, soz dude, if only cos I still gotta find time to play DBP21; I just noticed MOTHERFUCKIN AI WAR 2 came out too so I'm gonna have to play that a whole bunch) I don't think that there's any real attempt to connect the player, or the 'art'ist for that matter, to the larger gay culture in any non-superficial way (beyond the fact cottaging was illegal and that he named the game after a book). Games aren't really suited for such things anyway, despite what the Steam reviewer I cited above thinks, since as systems intended to reward repetitive tasks (ie. the 'game loop') they can't really provoke pride or awe or any sense of the sublime any more than my job does, even though games are fun and my job kinda isn't. Just because something is Not Art doesn't mean it can't be awesome, of course. I'm a big fan of the paintings of Frank Frazetta even though the themes are generally trite* and of course Doom rules the school. There seems to be a widespread school of thought that implies that something must be ART to be legitimate in some way (eg. that film critic, I think Roger Ebert, who said games aren't art, causing a massive spergsplosion?), but fuck that. These things should be evaluated on their own merits. Anyway I'm not sure that's any clearer than the above. I'm kinda organising my thoughts about this as I go. At least I used capitals this time. * this is my desktop rn:
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Mar 17, 2020 22:55:45 GMT -5
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joe-ilya
Hey, Ron! Can we say 'fuck' in the game?
a simple word, a simple turd
Posts: 3,073
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Post by joe-ilya on Mar 19, 2020 6:06:30 GMT -5
Oh no! I feel so bad for the demons from hell who killed countless humans (and animals).
Does it require some cinematic superhero sob story about how demons killed Doomguy's parents, for it to be justifiable?
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