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Post by wernergoldberg on Nov 10, 2023 1:25:22 GMT -5
of course it went to hamas, you think they'd lose an opportunity to play both sides even here? the genocide started many decades ago anyway, it's still rather one sided, though i won't pretend to give any shit -- our media certainly doesn't, despite routinely crying genocide and war crimes in much less blatant situations still this means ruzzia gets adveeka at the very least, and i actually agree with the left now. strange times
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Post by dr_st on Nov 10, 2023 5:12:40 GMT -5
It's closer to a genocide than a "war on HAMAS" at this point.. Well, no, not even remotely "closer". I don't think you grasp what a genocide is. Hint: what the Gazans did on the 7th of October is much closer to attempted genocide than what Israel is doing right now. The only reason it did not succeed is lack of means. what's the difference between HAMAS killing children and Israel killing them? I think you know the difference yourself. Hamas troops were killing children intentionally, sometimes cruelly, and taking pride in that. Israel does all it can to avoid killing children, it is not possible to always succeed. Also where did all the money that 'merrica sent to Palestine go? I hope it wasn't put towards the event that justified this genocide in the first place. It most certainly was put towards that, among other things.
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Post by wernergoldberg on Nov 10, 2023 7:50:56 GMT -5
well this civilian death toll in a matter of weeks is stuff barely even the us gets away with. the conflict as a whole is stretching the definition for sure
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Nov 10, 2023 15:53:07 GMT -5
Well, no, not even remotely "closer". I don't think you grasp what a genocide is. Hint: what the Gazans did on the 7th of October is much closer to attempted genocide than what Israel is doing right now. The only reason it did not succeed is lack of means. Can you clarify this more specifically? My understanding of genocide is that it is slow, strategic, and calculated. In Nazi Germany, jews were stereotyped and otherized in order to propagandize the german nationalists and to get them to capitulate to the legalization of exterminating the jewish people. Hamas performed a brutal terrorist attack. It's shocking, and tragic; not unlike the September 11th attack on the world trade center. The fall of the twin towers killed ~3,000 people, but I don't think anyone seriously labeled this an act of 'genocide.' Not to minimize the significance of these fast and explosive murders, but the emotions that drive these attacks don't correspond to the empirical data. In the united states, alcohol kills over ten times more people anually than mass shootings do, but, fallaciously, movements to end gun violence are much more charged than alcohol prohibition, to give you one example. Israel has a much more powerful military and much more backing from other nations than Palestine does, and still with this much intelligence and support, Israel is responsible for far more civilian casualties than Hamas. Gaza and the west bank are so small, concentrated, and contained by israel's military at the borders. This has been a point of unheard criticism of Israel for decades. I've been hearing 'Free Palestine' from a vocal minority long before this Hamas attack happened. Historically, negotiations for peace have not been well received. Here in the united states, I hear those calling for a cease fire to be grassroots people with little to lose, while those speaking out against 'antisemitism' and 'hate speech' are disproportionately voiced by big corporations and multi-millionaires. I haven't been able to find anti-jewish sentiments from anyone in the cease-fire camp surrounding this war. It's largely focused on a mutual understanding that innocent people are being used as collateral in this conflict and it needs to stop. It sounds to me like those that support israel believe that loyalty to anything israel decides to do has already been bought and any form of resistance to zionist warmongering is a shameful act of cowardice. Just today, I observed pro-Israel propaganda. My local news is reporting that a university near me is being threatened by it's donors due to students protesting for a cease-fire. The administrators have been quiet on the topic and has been hands-off with the organized campaigns in the school. The school's donors have been requesting the dean to resign due to the 'vile' and 'rampant antisemitism' on campus. If you want to know what's been said, you have to scroll all the way down to the second-to-last line to get this important piece of information that completely nullifies the entire article. source: 6abc.com/antisemitic-messages-university-of-pennsylvania-president-elizabeth-magill-penn/14039156/
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Post by TheFantasticFungiFan on Nov 11, 2023 1:12:06 GMT -5
Most Americans don't acutally understand the situation at all, they just see it as "Israel was attacked so I must act like I feel bad". They couldn't point at Isreal on a map. I've talked to two people who thought Hamas was a country. Americans have it imprinted in their brains that they must choose a side anytime there is a conflict, even if they know nothing about the conflict, and they have to choose the "right" side, and the right side just ends up being whatever their friends believe in. They see that their buddy changed their profile picture to an Israeli flag, so therefore Israel must be the good guys. People are too afraid to admit that they don't know about something everyone else is talking about, they don't want to feel dumb and left out, so they show their "support" by changing their profile picture. It's more important that you show your friends and enemies that you support the right thing, instead of taking a break to actually mature as a person by realizing that this is a terrible situation where innocent people are being massacred, and that you're using this ungodly situation to inflate your ego.
I'm not saying that you can't have an opinion on which side is right, I'm saying that people should actually learn about an event so they can form an opinion OF THEIR OWN before they get on the Twitterverse. The people I see on Facebook with flags as profile pictures know nothing about politics in general, let alone what's going on outside of the United States. It's just a way for them to get in on the hot new topic, and to show how much they care about these people that they never cared about, and never would have cared about, until someone told them they should care. They're simply using very real human tragedy to grow their very virtual e-peens.
Please note that I'm not saying anything bad about anyone here who supports Israel, I'm simply using Israel supporters as the example here.
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Post by dr_st on Nov 11, 2023 3:55:28 GMT -5
Can you clarify this more specifically? Easily. The Hamas attack (which, by the way, according to multiple sources, was joined in by Gazans not directly affiliated with Hamas), clearly demonstrated their goal of killing as many civilians as they could given their time and resources. Thus, it is a reasonable conclusion, that given more time and more resources, they would gladly kill more, and probably, "all" Israelis/Jews. Israel, with its powerful military, with its control of the Gazan borders, could have easily unleashed enough "death from above" on Gaza, that would bring the death toll to tens and hundreds of thousands, while simultaneously cutting the power, the water supply, and destroying critical infrastructure, that would have created an unprecedented humanitarian catastrophe. It is not, at the moment, doing so. It is not possible to avoid civilian casualties when fighting and targeting armed troops in a densely populated area. An area, which Israel constantly urges the Gazans to leave, and keeps "humanitarian corridors" open for them. Which the local Hamas government discourages the population from using. Unless you are prepared to make the claim that one is simply not allowed to fight armed combatants who choose to surround themselves on purpose with civilians and use them as human shields (Hamas military headquarters under every hospital in Gaza, for example), I don't see how you can come up with a war plan that's better / more humane than what Israel is doing at the moment. Gaza and the west bank are so small, concentrated, and contained by israel's military at the borders. That's only half-accurate. What you refer to as "the west bank" is not small at all. It's almost half the size of Israel itself. Most Americans don't acutally understand the situation at all, they just see it as "Israel was attacked so I must act like I feel bad". That is basically true, in both directions. As people do not have a good understanding of the situation and the history, the response is typically emotional. After the first few days - you stopped hearing in the news about dead Jewish children and slaughtered youth at a music festival, and instead you hear about dead civilians in Gaza. For many this triggers an emotional response in support of Gaza and in condemnation of Israel. Other people (typically with memory longer than that of a goldfish, and with more solid moral convictions, and probably more mature outlook on the world) are able to grasp enough of the situation and keep it in their mind's eye. They remember what started this event. They understand what the actions of Hamas say about Hamas and those who support it. They understand that they would not want to coexist with such a group that has made its intentions very clear, and would, given the possibility, would do all in their power to destroy it. They understand that in war you cannot avoid civilian casualties, and that the primary differences between "war" and "war crimes" is whether you deliberately target those civilians. Such people, at least if they were brought up in "western" culture, are more likely to continue supporting Israel. There are also other people with strong moral convictions, just opposite ones. They believe that the very existence of Israel is a crime and atrocity, and it should cease to exist. They may openly support Hamas and its actions, they may openly support "From the river to the sea Palestine should be free", etc. As you said, this is nothing new.
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Post by rancidsam on Nov 11, 2023 9:10:38 GMT -5
I just hope both teams have fun. :]
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Post by wernergoldberg on Nov 11, 2023 10:12:36 GMT -5
i'm not deep into the lore since i guess from my pov they might as well genocide each other, but i do recall it started with ordering evacuation of millions of people in like 24 hours, only now they're trying for the "hamas are blocking humanitarian corridors" angle. without a keen interest in the subject i can only assume civilians are being used both as human shields and as target practice -- hamas seem to be basically azovites muzzie edition, yet the scale is certainly different, i'm aware that the usual organizations are pointing out the obvious international law/human rights violations (whilst zionist media is willfully ignoring any historical context to anyone's actions going further than one month back). jew ilyas do seem to have that overall "rules for thee and not for me" irredentist approach, they probably decided outright nuking or carpet bombing was bad for optics. also hamas took hostages and didn't harm them afaik. houthi enthusiasm in firing over saudi arabia hoping to hit something on the other hand is certainly admirable
real talk, i don't have any love for the "lol rules of war" moralizing such discussions usually devolve into, i'd have no problem taking the side of the aggressor if ideologically inclined. though anyone sane just wants a ceasefire at this point and won't be as quick to hang the "current thing" flag on his social media profile, it's mostly government and media people afraid for their income and connections
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Post by BIG DICK NIGGA on Nov 11, 2023 10:21:07 GMT -5
Lol the glowies are working overtime in this thread. The situation didn't start out of nowhere on the 7th of October, it is a result of 75 years of systematic Israeli ethnic cleansing of the native Arabs, all supported by western imperialism. In fact the existence of Israel itself is only thanks to Western imperialism. Israel exists only "by force", and as long as it exists there can't be peace. Sad but true, like it or not!
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StodgyAyatollah
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Post by StodgyAyatollah on Nov 12, 2023 7:57:22 GMT -5
Every nation on the planet only exists by force my dude. Peace will never exist until all life ceases.
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Post by BIG DICK NIGGA on Nov 12, 2023 8:25:17 GMT -5
Sure but Israel is like really pushing it.
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StodgyAyatollah
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Post by StodgyAyatollah on Nov 12, 2023 9:20:45 GMT -5
You can make that argument but it's not like groups such as Hammas are any better. Just shit in different ways. Why I don't have a dog in this race and find it hilarious when non-Palestinians/Israelis get super invested in the conflict. It's just like the Ukraine/Russia thing was here in the west all over again. Everyone declared one side to be morally superior despite both sides being pretty shit in a lot of ways. In the end I'm sure as shit not going to take the Muslims side over the Jews or vice versa. Not much of a fan of holy wars like this appears to be once all the layers are pealed back.
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Post by wernergoldberg on Nov 12, 2023 10:36:27 GMT -5
i don't feel the psyop is working as intended here, as much as the ukraine one anyway, it's harder to pretend israel is being morally righteous and the fighting isn't even in europe. even then there was no real feeling of moral superiority, everything is gonna have some "are we the baddies" energy unless you hold onto some stronger convictions. i guess talking to soldiers on the frontlines about anime helps
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Post by BIG DICK NIGGA on Nov 12, 2023 14:54:26 GMT -5
You can make that argument but it's not like groups such as Hammas are any better. There would be no hamas if Israel left them alone and you know that. I don't have a dog in this either, I treat it as a football game. I cheer for whoever goes against America.
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Post by dr_st on Nov 12, 2023 16:55:59 GMT -5
I cheer for whoever goes against America. Why?
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StodgyAyatollah
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Post by StodgyAyatollah on Nov 12, 2023 18:36:43 GMT -5
There would be no hamas if Israel left them alone and you know that. And I know that the death toll in Palestine among the innocent would be insanely lower if it wasn't for Hamas. Don't care what caused their existence, they are shit stains regardless. Couldn't really fault you for the enemy of my enemy mentality except for the fact that the US has given Hamas hundreds of millions so it's not cut and dry like you seam to think.
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Post by wernergoldberg on Nov 12, 2023 22:03:56 GMT -5
it makes sense since the more globohomo resources israel is going to hog (that's the ultimate red line after all), the more of ukraine becomes part of new rome hamas was pretty much literally created by israel anyway, the "catastrophic intel failure" had an obvious 9/11 vibe, you don't even have to look into who openly funds them. again fake natzees working for jews like the azovites, most schizo timeline for sure. you'll pardon me if i suspect israel would've simply found different avenues for advancing their interests (aka irredentism) otherwise
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dn
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Post by dn on Nov 13, 2023 1:02:21 GMT -5
Couldn't really fault you for the enemy of my enemy mentality except for the fact that the US has given Hamas hundreds of millions so it's not cut and dry like you seam to think. Imma need to see the receipts for that. Because I *know* who is funding Israel. Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood that used to infest that entire area. Still big as the Beatles in Iran - used to be big in Egypt, but there was a military coup a new pharaoh democratic elections and the new presidente doesn't like that particular brand of Islam anymore. He's spent the past decade systematically eradicating the Brotherhood and has actually pretty much murdered them all. What has this got to do with the Palestine situation? Well, quite a lot, actually. See, the only way out of Palestine is now closed. Egypt is (a) bankrupt, and (b) isn't about to open the borders to allow Hamas / the Brotherhood back into the country. And this new solidarity Egypt has suddenly found with Israel? Yeah, it's based entirely around stomping a mutual enemy into paste. Politically, this is ideal for both countries: Israel finally gets to complete the extermination of Palestine, and Egypt waits a month or two until the UN provides enough of a bribe foreign aid to pay off the country's debt for another year. By that point worrying about the Brotherhood is moot, cuz they'll all be dead in the fighting. I want to point out that Palestine is about the same size as Loch Lomond in Scotland. There are two million people compressed into an area that I am informed my Uncle Alex could reliably piss across given twelve pints and a favorable wind. It wasn't a country, it was a concentration camp by any definition of the word. PS: what happened to all those loyal Palestinians who were allowed into Israel for legitimate employment (and not indentured servitude)? Because they have never been heard from again, funnily enough.
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BIG DICK NIGGA
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Post by BIG DICK NIGGA on Nov 13, 2023 5:34:11 GMT -5
And I know that the death toll in Palestine among the innocent would be insanely lower if it wasn't for Hamas Yeah of course, if there was no fighting there'd be no deaths. If the Arabs just let the israelis do whatever they want, there'd be no deaths either. But things don't work that way, people defend themselves when they're endangered. I want to point out that Palestine is about the same size as Loch Lomond in Scotland. Gaza strip* Palestine also includes the West Bank which is about 15x bigger than Gaza. Still very small but not pissable across. dr_st the US bombed my hometown and has been an occupying force in my country for 25 years now. My dad fought in that war too. Ok not really "fought" but took part in it.
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StodgyAyatollah
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Post by StodgyAyatollah on Nov 13, 2023 8:12:44 GMT -5
Imma need to see the receipts for that. Because I *know* who is funding Israel. I haven't done the math to pin down the exact amount the US has sent to Palestine since Hamas was voted into power back in 06 or whenever it was, or plan to but I do know it's been many hundred's of millions and unless we're operating on the assumption that all that "aid" money is somehow skirting Hamas influence I think it's a fair statement even without it being directly traceable. I know a sizable portion of it goes to the UN but the bulk of it goes to Palestinian organizations from my understanding. They're certainly not getting all the money and toys to make them a military super power like Israel but it's far from nothing.
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Post by dr_st on Nov 13, 2023 9:22:06 GMT -5
the US bombed my hometown and has been an occupying force in my country for 25 years now. My dad fought in that war too. Ok not really "fought" but took part in it. Imagined it had to do something with that part of history. I remember the feeling I had back then that Serbia was treated unjustly. Maybe they really were. Or maybe it had to do with their adversary seemingly having a lot in common with our adversary here in Israel. Or maybe I was just too young to understand the intricacies. Gaza strip* Palestine also includes the West Bank which is about 15x bigger than Gaza. Still very small but not pissable across. A just correction, and more: "Palestine" is simply another term for the geographical region known as the historical "Land of Israel". It covers the regions you mentioned, plus the entire area of the current State of Israel, and according to various definitions also some regions currently located in Jordan, Syria or Lebanon. For sure, whenever someone is chanting "From the river to the sea Palestine shall be free", they mean the entire area, including what is currently the State of Israel. There simply is no other way to interpret this saying. PS: what happened to all those loyal Palestinians who were allowed into Israel for legitimate employment I believe that a certain subset of them was, with varying degrees of certainty, tied to helping Hamas obtain some of the information that helped plan and execute the attack on the 7th of October. In any case, I don't think Israel will be allowing any workers from Gaza to enter any time soon.
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Nov 13, 2023 14:29:05 GMT -5
Easily. The Hamas attack (which, by the way, according to multiple sources, was joined in by Gazans not directly affiliated with Hamas), clearly demonstrated their goal of killing as many civilians as they could given their time and resources. Thus, it is a reasonable conclusion, that given more time and more resources, they would gladly kill more, and probably, "all" Israelis/Jews. Israel, with its powerful military, with its control of the Gazan borders, could have easily unleashed enough "death from above" on Gaza, that would bring the death toll to tens and hundreds of thousands, while simultaneously cutting the power, the water supply, and destroying critical infrastructure, that would have created an unprecedented humanitarian catastrophe. It is not, at the moment, doing so. It is not possible to avoid civilian casualties when fighting and targeting armed troops in a densely populated area. An area, which Israel constantly urges the Gazans to leave, and keeps "humanitarian corridors" open for them. Which the local Hamas government discourages the population from using. Unless you are prepared to make the claim that one is simply not allowed to fight armed combatants who choose to surround themselves on purpose with civilians and use them as human shields (Hamas military headquarters under every hospital in Gaza, for example), I don't see how you can come up with a war plan that's better / more humane than what Israel is doing at the moment. I feel like you're making my point for me. Israel having reservations about instantly reducing Palestine to a cloud of ashes doesn't really say "acting in compassion; not genocide" to me. Israel shouldn't need to publicly incriminate themselves for this to be a genocide. There's an aftermath for when they succeed. If Palestine was immediately vaporized with no resistance, Israel would need to be tried for war crimes. There would be consequences for it. The deaths of innocent people needs to be framed as just the cost of doing business to soften the blow that will eventually come from it. I don't know if we're going to align on this. Hamas' attack killed about 1,200 Israelis. There's been over 10,000 people killed in Gaza in 3 weeks, with ~4500 of them under the age of 18. If this many people were a threat to Israel, why did Hamas have to attack in order to justify this warfare? It's very "i wish a motherfucker would come at me" kinda energy. Everyone knows Israel is going to win this. They're too heavily armed and have backing from various nations that pride themselves on being "not the nazis." To what end does this war continue? We might be fundamentally at a disagreement here that blood needs to be paid for in blood (and with +500% interest, at that.) I think there's always a higher responsibility to seek a mutual resolution. For all the damage U.S. did overseas post-9/11, I don't think anything really made the U.S., feel like it got the redemption it felt it deserved. Even killing Osama Bin Laden didn't really finish anything. The war goes on and the American people have enough problems at home to spend any of their faculties thinking about it. Semantics aside, I and every human I've ever met would never want their mother, father or child caught in the crossfire of a gang war. At its most basic deconstruction, thats what it all is -- a gang war to be caught in between. Organized crime has all of the same corruption and power struggles as anyone's government does. It's all foundationally hinged on the threat of violence and coercion. Forget your organized power structures and ideologies. People are people, they have families and friends and we're all just trying to survive and pursue a livable quality of life. Even the most altruistic people will always be conflicted about being complicit in the world's evil in some indirect way. I'm not sure how the United States, with all the crazy horrible shit it has its fingers digged in, it still manages to convince its citizens the idea that voting for our leaders has any effect on this. The individual is powerless to these greater systems and there's nothing that makes that more clear than trying to live when a military turns your neighborhood into a fucking warzone.
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Post by dr_st on Nov 13, 2023 15:52:56 GMT -5
If I am making your point for you, then it must be by accident, because I don't think I understand what your point is.
To call what Israel is doing now in Gaza "genocide" is a gross (and I would say, vile) misuse of the word "genocide". Gross, because it is not in any way close to what true genocide looks like, and we've had a number of those in history, even recent history (hint - check the history and death tolls in the Syrian civil war, or in various African conflicts). Vile, because this word gets thrown around deliberately, by certain groups, specifically when it comes to Israel's war with the Palestinians, and as it keeps being repeated, it partially sticks even among folks like you, who I suppose have no real agenda against Israel.
Deciding who to "support" in a war based on death tolls does not make any more sense than, say, Xeep's "rooting for whoever is against the US" approach.
It's not about paying for blood in blood. If all Hamas militants decided to do the unimaginable, and come out on the first day of the war (after the initial massacre), unarmed, waving white flags, and announce their surrender - not a single one of them would have been killed. They would have been taken alive and tried as war criminals. There certainly would not have been any bombings or ground invasion of Gaza.
It's about making it impossible for Hamas, or whoever else in Gaza might want to repeat the massacre, to do so. That's the stated goal of Israel, and that should also answer your question regarding "to what end".
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Post by wernergoldberg on Nov 13, 2023 22:41:08 GMT -5
well i'm not one to play moral police, this civilian death toll in a matter of weeks is sus on principle even given the technical constraints. if anything given even russians were accused of genocide (by actual jewish media and politicians l0l), it's pretty obvious israel gets special treatment at least in mainstream circles (you can't publicly do pro palestinian rallies in france iirc, that wasn't the case for any us invasion). it wouldn't mean much on its own, yet when they've been doing this for like half a century and it mostly coincided with territorial expansion someone might do the math, anti israel agenda or not in fact given their popular resentment is at least partly fueled (other than israel being there by force in the first place), by treatment the likes of which barely anyone else gets away with in the <current year>, particularly when thrust before public judgment as a credible party to do any sort of business with -- might as well follow the ruzzian suggestion of returning palestine to '67 borders. israel doesn't exactly lack resources to enact strict control of anyone's politics and military (if that weren't the case then pulling a remove kebab move would be more understandable, still debatable though if clearly coming from a place of exceptionalism). if you're pro everything that israel is doing now then by all means also expect the reverse to be true
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Nov 15, 2023 14:59:21 GMT -5
Gaza is sitting on a $453 billion oil reserve.EDIT: there's a lot to read here but its essentially transcribing a story that RT broke recently. I looked but couldn't find the real original video (the above links' source links to a tweet that has since been deleted, thanks for the transparency elon musk.) I did find a reupload of the video on youtube so you can watch instead of read if you prefer. Sorry the quality is a little sucky.
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