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Post by ketmar on Jul 10, 2023 7:52:21 GMT -5
how can i know? ask those people instead. i can speak only for myself, and i will not add MBF21 support to k8vavoom.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2023 11:04:03 GMT -5
I think the thread went too far off from the Doom community matters.
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Jul 10, 2023 11:23:27 GMT -5
I don't really like dehacked that much aside from changing text strings, like map titles. I like using dehacked for changing map titles more than UMAPINFO, honestly.
It is weird that some people prefer MBF21 and other dehacked extensions over DECORATE though, considering how robust DECORATE is. The gameplay mods made with decorate are extremely clean and efficient. Dehacked is just a lot of clunky stupid hackery that is bursting at the seams and often pretty obvious from a player perspective most of the time. It's only impressive to people who have ever tried to work with it. People will bend over backwards to make their maps not zdoom-family exclusive, but essentially want the same things ZDoom offers, which confuses me.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2023 11:59:15 GMT -5
Also, it's easy to admire MBF21 if you don't actually have to implement it from the programming side. Having to convert the abstraction of directly patching an executable to a text-based format like DDF, which solved this problem over 20 years ago, is frustrating.
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Post by redeadita on Jul 10, 2023 12:03:37 GMT -5
I don't really like dehacked that much aside from changing text strings, like map titles. I like using dehacked for changing map titles more than UMAPINFO, honestly. It is weird that some people prefer MBF21 and other dehacked extensions over DECORATE though, considering how robust DECORATE is. The gameplay mods made with decorate are extremely clean and efficient. Dehacked is just a lot of clunky stupid hackery that is bursting at the seams and often pretty obvious from a player perspective most of the time. It's only impressive to people who have ever tried to work with it. People will bend over backwards to make their maps not zdoom-family exclusive, but essentially want the same things ZDoom offers, which confuses me. My perspective on all of this is the same reason why Mappers want to use custom textures or make maps on eternity engine, "Why the fuck not!". MBF21 despite the critics i have seen so far here, allows 2 important things, 1) unfuck small issues with BOom format that nobody fucking bothered fixing (GENERIC START CRUSHER being a good example) and 2) adding stuff that people wanted to use in their project such as custom projectiles and instakill sectors seeing. MBF21 (combined with extended dehacked and UMAPINFO) is essentially a Middle side of doom Modding, It allows to basically do things that you really wished boom/MBF was able to do but didn't back then, it's quite a niche format however, so the usage isn't very popular. As for the main reason why people stick with Dehacked it's indeed because they want to make it run on weak pc's and also because gameplay mods that use decorate and ACS (or zscript) can just easily override the stuff from the dehacked file without People needing to make vanillaized versions of the mapsets (Skillsaw's Valiant being the slight exception here as it was actually made in boom but used so much stuff that gameplay mods would break it quite easily). there are people who mod decorate on the now deprecated Zdoom sourceport while others limit themselves with Zandronum(which is even more outdated in terms of decorate library wise, but it's still being worked on, Just barely), depsite all of that some gzdoom modders wonder why do those people still work on it. Bottom line is simply: It's up to taste. Some people do it like that because they like it, some others just want the challange and torture of making something as big as making a sellable game on Vanilla doom format. |
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SilverMiner
You're trying to say you like DOS better than me, right?
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Post by SilverMiner on Jul 10, 2023 13:32:25 GMT -5
People will bend over backwards to make their maps not zdoom-family exclusive, but essentially want the same things ZDoom offers, which confuses me. I think of following reasons why people do this IMHO:
That's maybe cuz modern gzdoom has no demo recording feature.
If one uses gzdoom, one will face people's excessive quality expectations. Wads made by one person rarely get played enough to satisfy creator's needs (in recognition?), and one starts taking part in community projects. I feel that the higher count of participants/mappers is, the higher popularity the wad will get.
Community projects for Zdoom family often stagnate and don't get released cuz of overwhelming loads of features that mappers see in builders, which easily make them feel burnt out. Extremely low number of community projects targeting Zdoom happens lately (I haven't seen any for a while since something heretic for zdoom)
The practise shows that the most viable community projects are vanilla, LR or Boom. Thus people stick to simple ports which can behave vanilla/lr/Boom. dsda-doom combines this^ behavior and a new spec, MBF21 some part of mappers smoothly get used to MBF21 dsda-doom devs ask people what they would like to see in next builds creators tell them they'd like this and that dsda-doom devs add some of the requested features, which can make someone think they're remaking Zdoom I think it's just an established self-sustaining tradition to avoid Zdoom family (not only Zdoom, also Vavoom, Edge, Eternity, etc I dunno or forgot) Personally I see no problem in using ZDoom for a simple access to features to play with, which, if necessary, I could replicate in a less bloated ("conservative") source port fork after playtesting all new gameplay features I'd add in, in Zdoom 2.8.1.
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skyr
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Post by skyr on Jul 10, 2023 14:00:15 GMT -5
I dont know anything about programming or mapping, but if the movement in zdoom based ports are the same as gzdoom I 100% understand why people would avoid it. The way doomguy moves in gzdoom is just garbage, there is no weight behind the movement as if he is just floating. In dsda-doom there is some weight behind it, you feel there is actually momentum when you move, which makes it way more satisfying to just move doomguy around. And that is important in a game where you can do only 2 things, move and shoot. If the movement feels shit, the game feels shit.
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SilverMiner
You're trying to say you like DOS better than me, right?
Posts: 1,319
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Post by SilverMiner on Jul 10, 2023 14:04:42 GMT -5
movement in prboom+ and such feels slippery for me, like playing Counter Strike with high ping.
Zdoom feels smooth and fully controllable for me. Fastdoom (which is near vanilla) surprisingly also does
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Post by AskYourDrAboutUVFast on Jul 10, 2023 14:09:29 GMT -5
I'm a simple man. I want conveyor belts, but i hate enemies falling off of ledges. Therefore, I like mbf21.
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skyr
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pocket full of rocket fuel and pyramid stones
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Post by skyr on Jul 10, 2023 14:40:53 GMT -5
movement in prboom+ and such feels slippery for me, like playing Counter Strike with high ping. Zdoom feels smooth and fully controllable for me. Fastdoom (which is near vanilla) surprisingly also does I understand what you mean, al tho I wouldnt use the word slippery. You keep on carrying the momentum. If the movement kept on a bit longer than yeah I'd consider it slippery (i.e. the shit-ass ice physics in every game that thinks you need rotten garbage-ass ice physics.) But for me it does feel like slowing down weight. It just adds a bit of extra to the movement, a bit more than just press in the button and move. But this is just preference. I tried to check out fastdoom, but apparently there are a billion .exe's for all the different hardwares and it took longer than the 1 minute I was willing to figure out how to set it up. I'm retarded okay? Most of my braincells died and have been replaced with bloodcells to atleast resemble a structure that can be considered a brain. I have no idea how vanille actually behaves, I just play what I consider the most fun to play |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2023 16:45:42 GMT -5
Generic crushers, no pushback and instakill floors alone make MBF21 worth its weight in gold.
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Post by ketmar on Jul 11, 2023 0:50:12 GMT -5
and my point was not "MBF21 is bad because it allows modding", but "MBF21 was a mistake because it is based on a wrong foundation". it is so close to DECORATE subset, but in the same time it is so far from it… the right way, i believe, was to define a small, but compatible DECORATE subset (DECOLITE), with small extensions. this way we could have our cake and eat it too. but MBF21 authors decided to further fragment Doom modding scene.
and sorry for derailing the thread. ;-)
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SilverMiner
You're trying to say you like DOS better than me, right?
Posts: 1,319
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Post by SilverMiner on Jul 11, 2023 10:30:39 GMT -5
Generic crushers, no pushback and instakill floors alone make MBF21 worth its weight in gold. what are generic crushers, and why would I want to use them? instakill floors are goofy cuz it's a gameplay feature with an extreme impact, extreme features should be avoided for balance and fun
I dunno what pushback is. I know about weapon recoil in Boom and that's all.
it didn't add hexen and heretic actions for dehacked;
colored lighting; palettes per level.
The latter 2 features would maybe make mbf21 beat Zdoom in originality and worth it weight in tin, but no. lol
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SilverMiner
You're trying to say you like DOS better than me, right?
Posts: 1,319
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Post by SilverMiner on Jul 11, 2023 10:34:34 GMT -5
instakill floors are gonna harm newer mappers, cuz their maps are played by a few people, the significant part of them will rage quit if they fall into such a pit
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2023 11:05:42 GMT -5
I don't know, sounds a bit like clutching at straws just not to admit being wrong, but to each one their own I guess  |
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Post by Killer5 on Jul 11, 2023 12:08:01 GMT -5
Instakill floors are actually pretty cool. The first thing I did when mbf21 was released was create a frogger setup for a quirky secret fight.
Just depends on your tastes like everything else I guess.
mbf21 is cool because of umapinfo (whatever it is called), allowing new monsters without replacing things without putting up with cl11’s terrible infight behavior (I think? it would be cool to combine monsters with 1/4 hp and that color effect to make your screen a different color to simulate a quad zone in your map, also avoids marking all monsters as nomo like I am doing in my own cl9 maps) and the lines blocking only ground based monsters.
No opinion on the technical stuff in the backend. mbf21 fixes the issue of monsters sliding off of ledges so it was a win for that change alone.
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skyr
Doomer
pocket full of rocket fuel and pyramid stones
Posts: 264
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Post by skyr on Jul 11, 2023 12:27:59 GMT -5
Doesnt insta-kill floors also allow for killing demons? So you can use interesting set-ups with far away demons/sniper demons and they get killed when a player crosses a linedef/flips a switch instead of using crushers or annoying clean-up for the player or not allowing the player to get all kills? Seems pretty useful to me
And regarding new mappers; just because you can put a 1000 arch-viles in a room without cover doesnt mean you should put a 1000 arch-viles in a room without cover, in the same way just because you can put a instakill floor everywhere doesnt mean you should. And even if insta-kill floors didnt exist, new mappers could still have made unescapable pits, which basically serves the same purpose as an insta-kill floor.
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CittyKat112
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Post by CittyKat112 on Jul 11, 2023 13:36:14 GMT -5
Doesnt insta-kill floors also allow for killing demons? So you can use interesting set-ups with far away demons/sniper demons and they get killed when a player crosses a linedef/flips a switch instead of using crushers or annoying clean-up for the player or not allowing the player to get all kills? Seems pretty useful to me And regarding new mappers; just because you can put a 1000 arch-viles in a room without cover doesnt mean you should put a 1000 arch-viles in a room without cover, in the same way just because you can put a instakill floor everywhere doesnt mean you should. And even if insta-kill floors didnt exist, new mappers could still have made unescapable pits, which basically serves the same purpose as an insta-kill floor. Yes, they do. NoSp3 makes use of that in a few maps. I find insta-kill floors useful because you could make some really cool combat setups with them, unescapable pits is just one of many ways you could use them imo. But I still prefer Boom tbh. |
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SilverMiner
You're trying to say you like DOS better than me, right?
Posts: 1,319
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Post by SilverMiner on Jul 11, 2023 14:05:09 GMT -5
Inescapable pits suck
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Post by ketmar on Jul 11, 2023 23:27:33 GMT -5
they rox! when i'm trapped in inescapable pit, i have a perfect excuse to finally type "god" in console! |
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Lobo
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Post by Lobo on Jul 13, 2023 13:34:42 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2023 14:21:05 GMT -5
That thread is gold; it's clear that no compromise is 'good enough', despite several solutions proposed...
1. "Let's have a preset selector"
"Ok, but the default preset BETTER NOT HAVE FILTERING ON"
2. "Here's some ZScript to check the user's CVARs and advise them if the visual settings don't match the intended experience"
"That's moronic, despite solving all of Scuba Steve's complaints in his tantrum about engaging with art on the artist's terms"
3. "Just change the settings once and keep your configs if you don't like it"
"REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE"
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Lobo
Doomer
Posts: 593
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Post by Lobo on Jul 13, 2023 14:36:25 GMT -5
What 200 users say out of a base of possibly more than 10,000 MUST BE THE ONLY SOLUTION!
The hypocracy and cognitive dissonance in that thread is off the charts.
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Post by ketmar on Jul 13, 2023 14:40:50 GMT -5
if k8vavoom will ever get 1000 users, i will turn on texture filtering by default. just to enjoy the same funny thread.
p.s.: but i must adming that nagging me with "oh, you're playing it wrong" each time i start the game is not better.
p.p.s.: haha, k8vavoom has concept of "shadow cvars", because Zan mod needs some of them locked. that is, you CANNOT play Zan mod in the wrong way, because i am an asshole.
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xeepeep
Banned
Forever
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Post by xeepeep on Jul 13, 2023 14:41:29 GMT -5
Graf is such a prick but man I'm so glad he exists. The world needs more characters like him. 99,99% of users can't stand texture filtering, he doesn't give a shit. He wields the kind of Zen that you can only obtain after you turn 50.
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