40oz
diRTbAg
Posts: 6,103
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Post by 40oz on Jun 8, 2021 7:55:52 GMT -5
The politics don't fucking matter. Doomworld banned a doom fan. That's the problem. We're talking about politics here because doomworld wants to do anything but talk about Doom.
When the politics matter, you have problems like this:
1. Doom is racist. The infighting behavior in Doom is such that monsters don't infight with their own kind. They work safely and collaboratively if they look alike and only fight with monsters that look different than them. That's some subtle conditioning. If we look the same, then nah its cool I forgive you for shooting me. Oh you're a different color than me? FUCK YOUUUUU. What is this telling kids who play Doom?
2. Doom maps without enough ammo/health are against social welfare programs. You're suggesting that players in your universe should play with barely any resources. How are the weak and inexperienced supposed to survive? They just have to suffer endlessly in your map that you insist has pleny to go around? It's Doom darwinism. They just die off so only the mighty elite who can get through by gaming the system with infighting and good RNG damage rolls. You don't even have to raise taxes to put the resources in the map. Why would you want to simulate suffering through your players? Isn't the scarcity in life already hard enough?
3. If you play Doom then you are anti gun control. The guns are just laying around. You don't have to register them, take a shooting course or get a background check or anything. You just grab what you see and start shooting. Nevermind mass shootings and deranged people, they get to play doom whether you ban them from your community or not. You like the same game as mass shooters. That's just the way it is in this universe.
4. If problems are supposed to be solved in Doom with violence, then you are basically saying that violence would solve any problem in real life too. What is the difference? Why is the hero of this game any different than the nazis? This is a very imperialist and pro-war message.
5. If you make doom maps, you are aligned with neo-nazi fascism. In your map, you are creating a space for monsters, and we know that when you place revenants and arachnatrons next to SS Nazis, the monsters and SS Nazis are on the same team. The monsters and nazis are in alliance with each other. Mapping is expanding the virtual third reich, especially if you make a doom map that is hard and kills the player. When a player is killed by your creation and the player gives up, You are therefore communicating that fascism is inevitable and the victor. The weak players will have to perish against their iron fist. This is the problem with creating really challenging slaughterfest maps. You WANT the player to die. Isn't the resistance supposed to win? That's YOUR simulation, you neo-nazi.
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xsabersouza
Doomer
Born and raised in the fucking Colosseum!
Posts: 13
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Post by xsabersouza on Jun 8, 2021 8:14:28 GMT -5
You know what's funny? I agree that ScubaSteve's way of 'handling' the political part of Impie's mod was shit. Shit, I'll go a step further and say that complaining about the way Impie uses the pandemic in his mod while telling people here to 'hurry up and die of COVID-19' makes him a hypocrite. But there's no fucking way on this godforsaken ball of rancid shit that any debatebroisms or cheap gotchas will change what Impie put in his mod and how controversial it is.
If I can call ScubaSteve a hypocrite for what he said right here, I have to do the very same with Impie. On one hand, Impie said 'You can highlight stuff without being an asshole about it' and on the other hand Impie said 'But at this point I actually am happy when my work makes people angry and belligerent, because it always seems to be the worst personalities the community has to offer'. So what's it going to be? Talk about the content and the political views in it, or make it a point to provoke and fap to the outrage Impie no doubt saw coming and contributed to actively? If the choice is to provoke, don't come crying to daddy when the plan works out and your dick gets flattened. Cause and effect, man. Upload a controversial mod -> reap controversy. And fuck Impie for saying 'How you react is on you.'. If a guest in one of y'all's places pisses on your carpet, you'll slap him in the fucking face when he says 'It's your fault if you get upset'. Don't fucking pretend you'd stay calm and relaxed, you'd show him the door and- ohhhhhhh guess what happened to Impie. I'm surprised it wasn't a heavier shitstorm.
Whatever, yeah. I think Impie deserved a slap on the wrist. But a permanent ban under these conditions? That's a bit too much, even if Impie's first reply in the thread stinks already.
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40oz
diRTbAg
Posts: 6,103
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Post by 40oz on Jun 8, 2021 8:28:25 GMT -5
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2021 8:43:15 GMT -5
The politics don't fucking matter. Doomworld banned a doom fan. That's the problem. We're talking about politics here because doomworld wants to do anything but talk about Doom. When the politics matter, you have problems like this: 1. Doom is racist. The infighting behavior in Doom is such that monsters don't infight with their own kind. They work safely and collaboratively if they look alike and only fight with monsters that look different than them. That's some subtle conditioning. If we look the same, then nah its cool I forgive you for shooting me. Oh you're a different color than me? FUCK YOUUUUU. What is this telling kids who play Doom? 2. Doom maps without enough ammo/health are against social welfare programs. You're suggesting that players in your universe should play with barely any resources. How are the weak and inexperienced supposed to survive? They just have to suffer endlessly in your map that you insist has pleny to go around? It's Doom darwinism. They just die off so only the mighty elite who can get through by gaming the system with infighting and good RNG damage rolls. You don't even have to raise taxes to put the resources in the map. Why would you want to simulate suffering through your players? Isn't the scarcity in life already hard enough? 3. If you play Doom then you are anti gun control. The guns are just laying around. You don't have to register them, take a shooting course or get a background check or anything. You just grab what you see and start shooting. Nevermind mass shootings and deranged people, they get to play doom whether you ban them from your community or not. You like the same game as mass shooters. That's just the way it is in this universe. 4. If problems are supposed to be solved in Doom with violence, then you are basically saying that violence would solve any problem in real life too. What is the difference? Why is the hero of this game any different than the nazis? This is a very imperialist and pro-war message. 5. If you make doom maps, you are aligned with neo-nazi fascism. In your map, you are creating a space for monsters, and we know that when you place revenants and arachnatrons next to SS Nazis, the monsters and SS Nazis are on the same team. The monsters and nazis are in alliance with each other. Mapping is expanding the virtual third reich, especially if you make a doom map that is hard and kills the player. When a player is killed by your creation and the player gives up, You are therefore communicating that fascism is inevitable and the victor. The weak players will have to perish against their iron fist. This is the problem with creating really challenging slaughterfest maps. You WANT the player to die. Isn't the resistance supposed to win? That's YOUR simulation, you neo-nazi. 6. Doom is about watching fat and sweaty 40 year old men argue about politics. They are represented in the game as Mancubi, therefore the series only became political when Doom 2 was released. |
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40oz
diRTbAg
Posts: 6,103
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Post by 40oz on Jun 8, 2021 8:48:10 GMT -5
@themagicmushroomman Is the fatphobia and ageism necessary? There's many different body types and people metabolize what they eat differently. And Doom is a 20+ year old game. If you're 20 years or older now, it wasn't strange to play Doom back when it was new, and I'm thankful to have people like that still in our community to tell us what it was like.
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xsabersouza
Doomer
Born and raised in the fucking Colosseum!
Posts: 13
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Post by xsabersouza on Jun 8, 2021 9:00:12 GMT -5
40oz Hey man, how's it goin'? Doom is about watching fat and sweaty 40 year old men argue about politics. Don't doxx me bruh!
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Lobo
Doomer
Posts: 593 
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Post by Lobo on Jun 8, 2021 9:18:23 GMT -5
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2021 9:32:30 GMT -5
@themagicmushroomman Is the fatphobia and ageism necessary? There's many different body types and people metabolize what they eat differently. And Doom is a 20+ year old game. If you're 20 years or older now, it wasn't strange to play Doom back when it was new, and I'm thankful to have people like that still in our community to tell us what it was like. Wasn't being serious, but lately everyone that I see posting dumb shit seems to be right at 40 (just coincidentally). There isn't anything wrong with being fat. There isn't anything wrong with being sweaty. There isn't anything wrong with being 40. But I was dropped on my head several times after my birth. Because of this (not because of shrooms) I associate every member of the community with a monster from Doom that I think fits their personality. The ones I don't like are all Mancubeseses. And to me, a Mancubus will always be a fat, hairy, sweaty forty year old man from Fort Worth Florida (long story). |
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joe-ilya
Hey, Ron! Can we say 'fuck' in the game?
a simple word, a simple turd
Posts: 3,064
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Post by joe-ilya on Jun 8, 2021 9:47:39 GMT -5
Wait, what? Scuba is a playtester for BoA? The plot thickens.
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Post by scubasteve on Jun 8, 2021 9:51:03 GMT -5
Scube, even Tormentor just threw you under the fucking bus. You must have imparted some excellent wisdom upon him. It's funny because I voluntarily made a lot of suggestions on things I thought really crossed the line into "yeah... not okay" territory and the suggestions he didn't take are the ones rubbing people the wrong way. Zombies in a wolf mod? Sign me up. Zombie gas in a concentration camp? Yeah... I suggested that's not a good look... but it was kept anyway. They ended up being taken to task for many things I highlighted earlier; you can get away with plenty of violent things, but when you incorporate stereotypes of marginalized groups with that violence, it crosses a line that large groups of your audience find offensive. I wasn't a member of the team, and I didn't make demands telling them what to change; Tormentor and the other members can create any project they see fit. But, as it turns out, I was correct when identifying controversial elements within the mod. The same goes for Impie; If I had playtested Dynamite Duchess, I would have first suggested the mod is a bit too byzantine; players get lost too easily and it's not clear what you're doing. Second, I would have said the ham-fisted political trappings don't fit the theme of the project and it creates this unnecessary discord between the the game and the author's opinions. When you create a website and promote your project on the forums of the largest public Doom-content website, you're advertising that you want your work to reach a wide audience... anyone with half a brain could have told Impie what was going to happen when he incorporated controversial views about a current topical event. 40oz: Remember, Impie was banned from the ZDoom forums FIRST... he continued to be a Doomworld member despite this. He knew what behavior led to his expulsion from the ZDF and a little introspection would have prevented him from engaging in the same actions that resulted in his removal from the previous public forum. Anyone who can't do that is, well... Noted. I do find it comical, however, that anyone could read the post I was replying to and come away clutching their pearls, swooning and decrying that "Scuba is so mean!" |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2021 9:55:30 GMT -5
Relax folks, soon we'll have a new morality-police force that will ensure stuff like this doesnt happen again! Just sign Doomworld as the wokie-fockie land, it will suit the place at some point. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2021 10:01:20 GMT -5
Scube, you didn't have anybody clutching their pearls or swooning, you aren't that good of a writer. We just thought it was immature. If you can't come up with a better response than "die of covid", it's best to not say anything, because it just made you look worse than the person you said it to.
Other than that, alright. I do remember you posting something about the concentration camp content a while back.
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Post by scubasteve on Jun 8, 2021 10:34:01 GMT -5
it's best to not say anything, because it just made you look worse than the person you said it to. Fair enough. |
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xsabersouza
Doomer
Born and raised in the fucking Colosseum!
Posts: 13
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Post by xsabersouza on Jun 8, 2021 10:41:41 GMT -5
Noted. I do find it comical, however, that anyone could read the post I was replying to and come away clutching their pearls, swooning and decrying that "Scuba is so mean!" Dude, all you really say is that it's okay to tell somebody to die a miserable death because their comment sucked. If you want to talk about 'imparting wisdom' I got you covered - right here, right now: If you want to have a conversation like an adult, act like one all the way. Do you want to be the adult who imparts wisdom, or do you want to fight fire with fire? Who the fuck even cares if some people here shout 'got'em'? Do you believe that matching that tone was going to result in admiration and thunderous applause? Maybe you got a pat on the back in some echo chamber. Good for you! Man, I'unno how convinced people were, and it's not my fucking business, but one thing we can safely assume is that you blew it when you ruined your optics right in front of everybody's eyes. And guess what? That's the reason why I don't agree with Impie's ban; not if it is a permanent one. Calling him out for the political message is one thing, but don't tell me you had no idea that your comment set a tone for the rest of the discussion. Impie was naive enough to oblige, I'll give you that. And before you mention it: I also read the comment about his history. But don't claim that you went into that shit show with the intention to make it a calm discussion about the pitfalls of creative liberties and personal expression, because it just fucking doesn't look like it. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2021 11:06:28 GMT -5
This post was my fault, apologies to Scuba. I misunderstood what he said and got myself a (deserved) warning on DW because of it.
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Lobo
Doomer
Posts: 593
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Post by Lobo on Jun 8, 2021 11:07:44 GMT -5
Fuck they locked the thread just when I was about to post this:
"I can be your morality police if you want.
As a agnostic christian pagan no one is more moral than me, Dagda and Danu be praised."
Guess Liberation is a mod now too?
Is there a list I can see so I don't piss off the wrong people?
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Post by scubasteve on Jun 8, 2021 11:30:36 GMT -5
Mushroom, I think you misunderstood the original post here... "Beating up video game women as a standard enemy? No complaints. Beating up strippers in a club? Probably not."
I was indicating the first to mean "no complaints" from people about female enemies, but the second being "probably not" a good idea. Maybe I wasn't clear.
Xsabersouza's right and I've been way too stressed lately and have been a far bigger, uncharitable asshole than normal... I need a beer and time to decompress.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2021 11:35:03 GMT -5
Mushroom, I think you misunderstood the original post here... "Beating up video game women as a standard enemy? No complaints. Beating up strippers in a club? Probably not." I was indicating the first to mean "no complaints" from people about female enemies, but the second being "probably not" a good idea. Maybe I wasn't clear. Xsabersouza's right and I've been way too stressed lately and have been a far bigger, uncharitable asshole than normal... I need a beer and time to decompress. Oi. My fault, I get it now. You can flog me in the wads & mods section if you want. Been stressed out too. That was a fuckup on my part, I admit that. I thought you meant "complaints?...probably not". |
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good-old
Doomer
18 year old dumb kid.
Posts: 421
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Post by good-old on Jun 8, 2021 11:36:56 GMT -5
The ban is justified, because Impie said they added the political commentary to piss people off, and then gets highly defensive when people are pissed, would've been better if they didn't keep insulting everyone for several pages. If you're making political commentary to piss people off, you're not really making political commentary; you're just pissing people off, and when you do that you get banned. A big difference between Doomworld and Doomer Boards is that here you're allowed a second chance(even SArais got one despite how stubborn he was). 40oz doesn't ban people immediately, and for some reason this pisses more than half the doom community off. |
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zedonk
Doomer
Saint Zed the Heretic
Posts: 154
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Post by zedonk on Jun 8, 2021 11:45:05 GMT -5
If I ever become a mod at Doomworld, I'll instate you as the chief of morality police Lobo : D
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2021 12:05:55 GMT -5
Badass posts, finally.   |
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Post by optimus on Jun 8, 2021 12:25:13 GMT -5
Scube, you didn't have anybody clutching their pearls or swooning, you aren't that good of a writer. We just thought it was immature. If you can't come up with a better response than "die of covid", it's best to not say anything, because it just made you look worse than the person you said it to. Other than that, alright. I do remember you posting something about the concentration camp content a while back. Fight with each other guys. I don't care. You are both feeding into this "everything is offensive" and let's cancel each other, which is the same cancer as in Doomworld. A lot of the justifications are ridiculous, like you are trying to find insensitivity in everything. For example scuba mentions the Zyklon Gas Zombie storyline in BOA. I am currently playing it and there is a storyline where a new imaginary form of the gas is turning people into zombies instead of just killing them. The game is about fighting nazis and usually these games (from fan based to the commercial games) add extra imaginary scenarios that mix paranormal with nazi occult, and that's a very common way to expand the universe of games related to fighting nazis. I remember in many levels, there are posters with negative stereotypes about jews, but it's part of the story, that's what you would possibly find if visiting Germany at the time. The Zyklon Zombie Gas is an expansion of that universe. Just because Gas bring in mind Jews and you are like "Oh no, that's too insensitive". Stop and think! It's a whole game with one hundred triggering stuff! Why not remove the swastikas? Why not remove everything? Why are we nitpicking in what we remove in a game that it's very easy to find stuff? If the game was about glorifying killing Jews, then I would understand the author wanted to be edgy in a bad way. But you are in the nazi universe and fighting nazis. In Return to Castle Wolfenstein, after escaping the prison, you find rotten tortured electrocuted body. What about the real persons that were tortured in real life? No!!! It's a setting of what would really happen in Nazi Germany, that's ridiculous! |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2021 12:29:13 GMT -5
Scube and I already settled things like real men: with pool noodles and baby oil  No need to keep talking about any of that. |
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Post by optimus on Jun 8, 2021 12:29:18 GMT -5
So, what I want to say, it's ridiculous that in this whole game, you nitpick the "Zombie Gas scenario" like insensitive. Actually, if I want to push this sensitivity to it's final conclusion, the whole game could be insensitive both for survivors of the holocast AND actual Germans because it will make them feel guilty for something they weren't even responsible for to begin. You are triggering Germans.
Ridiculous!
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40oz
diRTbAg
Posts: 6,103
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Post by 40oz on Jun 8, 2021 12:32:11 GMT -5
It doesn't seem very far removed than the crimes against humanity that were happing in the original wolf3D plot anyway, like the super soldiers. The game is not for the squeamish.
I was floored when i discovered way late in the game that you can drink spilled blood off the floor for +1% health if you have less than 11%. You're not supposed to be taking lessons from this game about what to think in history. It's a fictional universe.
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