joe-ilya
Hey, Ron! Can we say 'fuck' in the game?
a simple word, a simple turd
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Post by joe-ilya on Apr 8, 2020 5:13:49 GMT -5
40ozWTF is your problem? This is retarded, you were credited, but in Torm's case the original creator wasn't (in two cases). Not to mention you were also gone during that time, so even if they'd contact you, you'd ignore them anyway, I think the people in this forum have tried to, too. And yeah, what Phobus said.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2020 5:21:32 GMT -5
Okay, sweet. The conditions of the license have been met, in that case. The map even shares it's name, clearly suggesting a tribute.
The license that was attached to the wad didn't require it. All attempts to contact you through Doom have been moot for a long while now.
The drama has been over now. Dragonfly is over it. The people who are going to forgive Torm have already done so. Almost no one is even talking about it anymore. It's no longer news, it's "olds". What are you doing?
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Apr 8, 2020 5:30:05 GMT -5
wow.
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joe-ilya
Hey, Ron! Can we say 'fuck' in the game?
a simple word, a simple turd
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Post by joe-ilya on Apr 8, 2020 5:57:38 GMT -5
scythe.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2020 6:32:43 GMT -5
I think technically you could make an argument that the license was chosen by the person compiling that 32in24 wad rather than 40oz himself, and most likely 40oz wasn't directly asked if he was okay with that. I imagine this happens with community projects all the time and perhaps we should treat this stuff a bit more seriously (e.g. have a warning at the top of the project thread that says which license will be enforced on all submitted maps?).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2020 6:34:04 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2020 7:01:12 GMT -5
This explains nothing. What the actual fuck are you doing, I am genuinely curious. It looks like a weird attempt at manufacturing more controversy where there is none. I'd really like to know if there's some other angle on this. But if you don't want to explain that's fine too.. It's just utterly bizarre.
Also, welp, looks like Laz Rojas himself showed up! Time for plagiarism drama II: electric boogaloo. Actually, probably not - I doubt we're going to get anything like the pages we got last time. It's good that he weighed in though, I was wondering if he would have something to say about all this.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2020 7:26:13 GMT -5
heh
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Apr 8, 2020 7:50:53 GMT -5
You said its over, dude. Why you prodding? It is doomworld's management and culture to make enemies out of people. Its abusive and I don't condone it, and resisting that abuse is what I'm going to do. I'm not bending on that whether you think its petty or not. Level designing for doom is being a slave to the craft. Its long and tiresome and has few rewards. We have to treat each other better than this. Speaking of petty, Tormentor667 has been an enemy to doomworld since as long as I can remember. So much so that even I bought into it early in my doomworld registration. Talk about the drama being over with again, doomkid. When just yesterday you were condoning this public shaming while poorly citing tormenter offending "like 7 times" all accusations of which were nearly a decade ago or more. People are acting like its the plagiarism that's the problem, but the thread (including the deleted posts that arent there anymore) was a window for people to air out all their festering resentment towards Tormentor, all built on shittalk gossip and not even directly effecting the people visibly shocked by it. All towards a single person. A real person who has real feelings and loves doom. This is how I know the moral grandstanding against stealing peoples sectors is full of shit. Take Dragonfly's thread, replace his gifs of individual rooms with my gif of my entire frankensteined map layout, details and all, and swap tormentors name with TMD. Almost all of the posts still apply. Your telling me none of this gut reaction logic came across in the 32in24 development team of over a dozen people, with the map thoroughly tested when the borrowed sectors werent even obfuscated and the original map title referenced, to not even chime in with "maybe we should find out what 40 thinks of this first, just to cover our bases" all because of a little legal fine print? That's enough to make it not even a question when this is the consensus across the site?
Eugh, that's just bad. If you're gonna make something, at least use your own original ideas and don't steal from other people's work.
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Homage is fine when done right. Flat-out copy-and-pasting is pretty damn bad.
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That's deplorable, not just the fact that it's plagarizing another map, but also that it was submitted for someone else project
It does makes me question his other work
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Seeing people not bother to come up with their own ideas and instead opting to literally grab someone else's lines and put them in their own work is something I will never understand or allow in my own projects.
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when you literally copy and paste several sections and sectors out of it without permission (i.e. what this shows)
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Three cheers to a great artist!
HIP-HIP, GO FUCK YOURSELF
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Different story. The Casali brothers took stock level ideas and then drew their own lines.
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Look at the shapes that he copied directly. It's not some super intricate thing where he wanted to use it as a reference point for general shape and size. They're standard size mostly orthogonal sectors that if it wasn't for the fact that there are multiple of them in the same map clearly directly copied, one could easily argue are so standard that it's hard to say it's plagiarized.
It is directly copying portions of other work, that are not immediately recognizable to evoke the notion of clear homage (the same way as say Map 32 of Plutonia) and then using them to just fill out small portions of a map. This is more a product of laziness than artistic verve. Just draw your own sectors.
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as addressed before, homages are fine, however it's pretty evident that these lines are very, very lazily copy-pasted. it's highly unlikely that two rooms would look the exact same way if created from scratch by different authors.
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If you watched the gifs in the OP, you'd be able to see it being a coincidence is demonstrably impossible. It's not just the architecture that's the same, its dimensions are as well exactly, including aspects of the detailing.
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Basically, the chance of there being two Egyptian-themed maps, using roughly the same textures, where the vertexes and lines of one fit perfectly over the other, down to the exact grid position, across multiple different rooms, is next to impossible to happen by chance. There is absolutely no way this was an honest mistake. Some of the Thing placement is even the same.
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To anyone making excuses for his behaviour:
There is no excuse for STEALING someone else's work and then CALLING IT YOUR OWN. Even a single sector. It's dishonest and wrong.
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No I would not have done the same. Draw your own sectors, it's that simple. Even when you're making a map that's specifically evoking a previous map you should still modify it enough to make it its own thing and have your own touch applied to it.
If Tormentor was taking a well known early Egyptian themed map and "sampling" it to recontextualize it in a Zdoom context with clear inspiration where you could see what he changed, that would be one thing.
This is not that, this is taking pretty standard shapes from another source and using them to fill out map length in a way that makes it hard to justify as anything but pure laziness.
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Also taking inspiration or copying sections of iwad maps, aka the base game that we're all modding anyway, is a whole different situation from copying another modder's work. Come on, this distinction is obvious in more ways than one. <--- THIS IS YOU!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2020 7:58:32 GMT -5
Why don't you do something useful like put more textures in the DBP23 WAD?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2020 8:00:09 GMT -5
C'mon guys give 40oz a break sheeeeesh chill out already it's a new day
@doomro offer some yourself if you need more so badly
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dmdr
Doomer
is this how I add a title under my avatar?
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Post by dmdr on Apr 8, 2020 8:05:16 GMT -5
the big joke here is that, considering all the modifications he made, it wouldn't have taken him that much longer just to draw his own lines
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2020 8:05:34 GMT -5
This is how I know the moral grandstanding against stealing peoples sectors is full of shit. Take Dragonfly's thread, replace his gifs of individual rooms with my gif of my entire frankensteined map layout, details and all, and swap tormentors name with TMD. Almost all of the posts still apply. Your telling me none of this gut reaction logic came across in the 32in24 development team of over a dozen people, with the map thoroughly tested when the borrowed sectors werent even obfuscated and the original map title referenced, to not even chime in with "maybe we should find out what 40 thinks of this first, just to cover our bases" all because of a little legal fine print? That's enough to make it not even a question when this is the consensus across the site? You seem to be missing the part where Epic 2 has a text file, which says you're not allowed to reuse it, and no credit was given anyway (due to mistakes made by T667). You're also missing the part where Laz Rojas wasn't credited at all, meaning that the "you can use this as long as it's credited" clause was broken. Your example, wherein you shoehorn yourself into this drama, does not follow this pattern. Permission is given by the 32in24-16 text file and you're credited in 32in24-17. Your argument does not stand. This isn't about the T667 haters club or vendettas (most of the newbs virtue signalling in the original thread didn't know who he was). This is about permission and credit. |
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Post by dragonfly on Apr 8, 2020 8:57:40 GMT -5
After your intense, yet poor attempt to try and frame me as a bad person in your line of questioning in PMs yesterday, and now this attempt to start more shit, it's obvious your statement about how "Doomers don't deserve to be treated like that" wasn't how you feel and was just a lie. You're now trying to do the same to someone else with a situation that's not even applicable due to the license and the fact credit WAS given. Are you actually stupid? You acted all high and mighty about how the initial callout should have been handled in private, but it appears you're incapable of doing that, too. Oh, hold on, here's another quote: "Tormentor is a real person, with real feelings. And he loves Doom. It's not ok to make an example out him. It's not ok to do that to anyone, even if they were worse." and yet here you are throwing your own words in the garbage can while trying to make an example of someone else, even if it's supposed to be satire. I think your return to the community is summarised as follows:  |
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Apr 8, 2020 9:29:20 GMT -5
No ones framing you dragonfly. Youre fine.
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Post by dragonfly on Apr 8, 2020 9:56:06 GMT -5
That's what you take away from my message? Disregarding the fact that you're contradicting yourself incredibly thoroughly doesn't make that fact suddenly disappear.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2020 10:00:17 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2020 10:02:29 GMT -5
I lazily made that because I have many things to say but I'm unsure of how to say them.
Fuck it I'll be blunt:
40, stop complaining about moral grandstanding whilst moral grandstanding.
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Apr 8, 2020 10:58:24 GMT -5
I love you guys. If any of you guys become targets of the doomworld hate machine, I'll have your back. This goes for you too dragonfly and any other doomworld member subject to it. Hope you feel better soon. It sucks to see this side of you.  |
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dn
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the motherfucking darknation
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Post by dn on Apr 8, 2020 11:02:25 GMT -5
I *think* I see what 40 is trying to say here, but mein gott, it's expressed badly.
As for Torm being "an enemy of DW", I was there when he was first banned during the great KDIZD flamewar. It wasn't a political assassination: Torm was being an insufferable, egotistical arse and trolling his little black heart out. It was to his great misfortune that he challenged some greater, more insufferable God-Troll for supremacy; Torm lost his temper, posted goatse analogue and suicided his account like a spastic.
Many such cases, very sad. But life goes on, eh?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2020 11:47:51 GMT -5
I *think* I see what 40 is trying to say here, but mein gott, it's expressed badly. Omg, please explain it to me. I'm still bewildered by his reaction to someone using his map just as the license permits. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2020 17:53:30 GMT -5
Oh yeah, I stood by and fucking endorsed each and every one of those posts and kept stoking them flames!!
edit: "poorly cited", rofl. I'm not writing an academic paper, ask Laz Rojas, Dragonfly and Esselfortium for 3 of the 7 examples I was talking about. I'll just leave the other 4 to your imagination.
WOAH I WAS REALLY STICKING IT TO TORM!!!11 How will he ever recover from this public shaming, spearheaded & endorsed by little ol me When people were calling for stupid-as-fuck punitive measures, I really let the world know my true thoughts!!WOAH! A damning statement if ever I've heard one! My boot might as well have been halfway up Torm's ass from kicking him out the door!! Then, when Tormentor took the time to apologize and reach out to several people personally: Jeez! You can just feel the hate and ire I have for Torm DRIPPING off that quote!! 40, it's good to know you think the whole Doom community is a piece of shit because some people got mad for like 2 days about thievery and then most of them forgave him anyway. It's also good to know you've doubled-down on your Doomworld conspiritard levels. Yep, you're right, that whole community just wants to watch the world burn.You're being dishonest as fuck about this whole situation, you're manufacturing controversy and you're attempting to martyr yourself right now - fuck knows why. It's blatantly obvious though. You're a method actor playing the Doomworld antagonist but you're in too deep at this point (stolen quote). Not that I care about this angle at all, but you're also making any legitimate complaints you have about Doomworld look retarded by association right now. If Torm was still being harassed days later, if he or any of his supporters had been banned or some garbage like that, or if there was anything approaching "actual misconduct" in the way people responded to it, you might have a point. But none of that happened, so you don't.. Just to clarify, is Doomer Boards a bastion where people with a tendency to say uncouth things can feel confident that they can do so without being scolded, or are a bunch of people saying uncouth things "the toxic epicenter of the internet and the reason the Doom community sucks so hard"? Which is it? Or, should I just stick my finger in the air, gauge which direction the wind is blowing, and assume your answer based on that?
In response to you saying "it's over, why are you prodding", frankly it's because I can "text wall" with the best of 'em, and if you get to manufacture yourself some "fun via faux outrage" then so do I, con sarnit!
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Apr 8, 2020 20:18:45 GMT -5
I understand you. Your not accountable for the actions of others. You participate in the thread, you insist its necessary, and among the reactive detailed lambasting outlining the laziness and moral reprehensibility of copying and pasting another's lines and sectors, its all entirely contingent on the legal fineprint in the text file and nothing to do with the act itself.
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dn
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the motherfucking darknation
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Post by dn on Apr 8, 2020 21:23:39 GMT -5
Well, yes. Think of it as "consent".
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Post by dragonfly on Apr 9, 2020 6:33:59 GMT -5
its all entirely contingent on the legal fineprint in the text file and nothing to do with the act itself. You really miss the point of the whole thing then, don't you. The "act itself" as you put it, is quite literally about doing it against the terms of license set forth by the mapper and their wishes. If the mapper was happy to have their work reused, they would have outlined as such in the text file. If they'd said that this is not okay to do, but a mapper wanted to do this anyway, the next step would be to contact that person for permission. But hey, don't mind me, if you want to continue this train of contradictory actions, carry on participating in the thread, insisting it's necessary. Personally though, were I so irrefutably wrong as you are, I'd stop digging a bigger hole and back off, hell I'd even be the bigger man as Torm has and apologise for my actions. But looking at your arrogant custom title (which at first I thought was just a satirical representation of your personality, oh how wrong I was as it's obviously your actual mindset), I think we can all see that you're not going to do that, are you? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
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