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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2020 7:52:41 GMT -5
Also Tarns keeps saying Plutonia is full of reimagined homages to Doom and Doom 2 maps but I asked Dario about that directly and he pretty flatly said no. (about 29:05)
But that's evident when you examine the maps. Other than the example of Go 2 It, Circle of Death->Slayer and The Inmost Dens->Neurosphere that were already made in that thread there's also Caged (and to a lesser extent The Twilight) that takes a lot from The abadoned Mines, the starting part of NME borrows from Deimos Anomaly, and both The Final Frontier and Anti-Christ are heavily inspired by The Living End. And these are the most obvious examples but there could be more. Maybe Plutonia isn't so filled with homages as someone would imply and a map like Odyssey of Noises take the concept of Downtown and improves it rather than ripping off the original, but here I'm starting to go off topic. I think that many of the homages that the mappers do in general aren't intentional and they are "born" on a subconscious level and the mapper doesn't realize it. Imo this was the case of the Casali Brothers and this is something that was also prominent if you look at the older mapping scenes where often the maps have a more Doom 1/2 feel. And it could be worth to go deeper into this if you compare to the 2000's and 2010's mapping where the originals don't have the "monopoly" and the points of reference shifted since there isn't only Doom and Doom 2 anymore.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2020 8:07:45 GMT -5
This is like the 7th time Torm has been called out for plagiarism, obviously he hasn't learned so yes, this thread was definitely necessary.
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Apr 6, 2020 8:40:42 GMT -5
Not condoning using people's work as your own, even good intentioned without properly crediting the source, but the language of Torm needing to "learn his lesson" is nauseating for me. It's the kind of logic child abusers use to justify hitting their kids.
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dn
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Post by dn on Apr 6, 2020 8:54:02 GMT -5
Not condoning using people's work as your own, even good intentioned without properly crediting the source, but the language of Torm needing to "learn his lesson" is nauseating for me. It's the kind of logic child abusers use to justify hitting their kids. Don't think positive reinforcement is an option here. "Poor babby Torm, he doesn't know any better, he's fucking retarded. Here: I'll donate a pound a month to your patreon if you promise not to plagiarize other, harder working, better mappers. Atta boy, champ." Nay, I say. Tormentor shit the bed. Let him fucking eat it. |
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Apr 6, 2020 9:34:08 GMT -5
The threads never going to reopen. He's fucked.  |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2020 9:50:20 GMT -5
The threads never going to reopen. He's fucked. Didn't take long for that to happen. I was actually sure it IS going to be closed or even deleted at some point, cause that is how they handle drama nowadays. By the way, does anyone know if doomworld allows to register with a russian e-mail? For some reason, it rejected my attempt at registration although I am sure password was correct and 'caco' was a correct answer for a four letter of a happy floating '____demon'... or wait, maybe I should have tried THE four letter word instead? Tried 'caco' in all cases, too. So it is either it doesn't like my e-mail or the registration was blocked because of that thread. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2020 9:51:40 GMT -5
Not condoning using people's work as your own, even good intentioned without properly crediting the source, but the language of Torm needing to "learn his lesson" is nauseating for me. It's the kind of logic child abusers use to justify hitting their kids. The fact that child abusers might use language like that does not mean that the very concept of people needing to learn a lesson should be tossed out though. There absolutely was a chance, multiple chances, to not make this "mistake" again. Using that term loosely because he did this knowingly. "Mistake" kind of implies it was an accident which it wasn't. It's a repeated offense.
This is a side note but I have to restate just how silly it is to do away with concepts because unsavory individuals might happen to espouse them once in a while, lol. If child abusers start saying we should be more environmentally friendly, will that idea also become nauseating?  |
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joe-ilya
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Post by joe-ilya on Apr 6, 2020 9:56:22 GMT -5
It's the kind of logic child abusers use to justify hitting their kids. Yeah, their 30-year-old kid who committed a fraud on them. |
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Apr 6, 2020 10:26:08 GMT -5
The fact that child abusers might use language like that does not mean that the very concept of people needing to learn a lesson should be tossed out though. There absolutely was a chance, multiple chances, to not make this "mistake" again. The concept is bullshit and I'll tell you why. The topic of "plagiarism is bad" is not a lesson that needs to be taught. It's very elementary. Don't steal people's shit. The vernacular is a fucked up way to sugarcoat what's actually happening because public shaming is not teaching and it is not how you would treat a student that doesn't understand something. It is tantamount to verbal abuse. This isn't a commentary on cancel culture btw. A lot of wealthy, famous, public figures are tied to physical and sexual abuse and/or human trafficking those people should 110% be cancelled. What we are talking about here is an entirely charity and creativity driven gift economy. There's no way Tormentor667 bathing in doomer money, and to target him financially (even if justified) is a lot more effective than to stop enabling terrible people to secure large contracts that give them an enormous megaphone to the world. The same "you need to change your behaviour or I'll do it for you" kinda thinking is what got me banned from doomworld. It's a vindictive idea that you get one chance to be the best version of yourself, and if you fuck it up, you're irredeemable. Its obvious that an otherwise stagnating doom community somehow attracted so many users who rarely every post anymore to blow up the thread unlike any thread on doomworld in the past year. I used to give doomworld shit for being too progressive, but seriously, miss me with that republican-ass original sin bullshit that doomworld culture still hasn't grown out of. You don't have to be great to be a part of the doom community. That's the very foundation that Doomer Boards is built on. |
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Post by joe-ilya on Apr 6, 2020 11:19:24 GMT -5
Torm was given a decade of chances to redeem himself, yet he kept making bigger plagiarisms each time, it started from some stolen textures from KDiZD by Essel, then onto Wolfenstein sprites by WildWeasel, and now it's gotten into copy-pasting portions of Eternal's maps. How long until he steals a whole map, an episode, a megawad and eventually a TC? He better be called out before his strange thieving addiction goes completely out of control and really hurts the trusting bond of the community, before it's too late for him to break the shitty habbit, or maybe it is already too late, as this is way out of hand.
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dn
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Post by dn on Apr 6, 2020 11:29:47 GMT -5
I'd disagree. Shame is a fine motivator for better behavior. And he ought to be fucking ashamed of himself. The writhing, humping dog-pile you are seeing here is because of Tormentor's fucking ego: he's shat down on too many people over the years to expect any sort of goodwill or forgiveness. And - tenner on the table - I'll bet that in six months time he'll be changing the fucking narrative to telling his sycophants that he did not plagiarize; nay, he fucking improved.
I would personally gut anyone who stole or plagiarized my shit. Perhaps that's because I'm in a position to make money from it (not a lot, but beer money is beer money): fuck with that sweet electric gravy train and I will unleash all the forces of hell at my disposal to make the choring fucker's life a misery.
À la lanterne.
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Apr 6, 2020 11:46:13 GMT -5
Torm was given a decade of chances to redeem himself, yet he kept making bigger plagiarisms each time, it started from some stolen textures from KDiZD by Essel, then onto Wolfenstein sprites by WildWeasel, and now it's gotten into copy-pasting portions of Eternal's maps. How long until he steals a whole map, an episode, a megawad and eventually a TC? He better be called out before his strange thieving addiction goes completely out of control and really hurts the trusting bond of the community, before it's too late for him to break the shitty habbit, or maybe it is already too late, as this is way out of hand. How generous of the Doom community to just be handing out decades of free "chances" to people! Bless their hearts! Again, original sin bullshit we're carrying over from a fucked up doom community. What, is everyone subject to immediate vitriol at any opportunity at least until the doom community gives you a chance? I'd say keep that shit on doomworld where it belongs but it's hateful garbagethink that doesn't belong anywhere and it hurts my soul to see my fellow doomers perpetuating that pain. |
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joe-ilya
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Post by joe-ilya on Apr 6, 2020 12:03:32 GMT -5
You did claim in your previous reply that he was not given a chance, I assumed that's what you were mad about, but I guess you're somehow mad that people are mad about the plagiarism, well, then what is your point? Should people not be mad because somebody broke the rules? Let people be emotional and invested, that's what keeps everything going, or the community would be dead and dry by now.
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Post by 40oz on Apr 6, 2020 12:15:38 GMT -5
No dude, there's no such thing as "chances." The entire concept is absurd. We play and make doom maps because we like the game and we have a creative outlet to use it for. There's no gatekeepers in Doom. You play it or you don't. If were treating people like they start from a score of -1 and they have to earn their points with the community, the division and drama in this community will continue, because people have different measurements for their score and some people are so broken that they never let anyone get above -1. People's feelings get hurt, they get stressed out about their day, and in the end none of it fucking matters at all.
As long as Doomers keep treating each other this way, people's participation in the community will continue to just be this long painful period of their life they will never get back. (unless they were awesome and popular the entire time, then maybe its cool for them, I wouldn't know.)
I'm not in the business of keeping score for every time someone has wronged me. I'm over it. If you're a doomer, you're loved. That's the way I operate.
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joe-ilya
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Post by joe-ilya on Apr 6, 2020 12:36:04 GMT -5
Nobody's treating anyone with a starting score of -1 in the thread, I don't understand where you saw that. It's about communal faith, and he broke it, faith has no count, it's either there or not.
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Post by 40oz on Apr 6, 2020 13:13:00 GMT -5
The stated purpose of the thread was a call for him to make an apology in a forum he hardly participates in anymore while he was grieving a lost family member, and if he doesn't then he isn't owning his problem. And it was made on public display, bumped with reactions from people unaffected by it for about a day, and now the thread is locked so he can't even do it if he wanted to. Now that the thread is over, he's perceived as flaking on his "chance" to confess, as if the doominati was prepared to grant him redemption for everything if he apologized anyway.
You ready for some mental gymnastics? Tell me there was love in that thread.
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Post by 40oz on Apr 6, 2020 13:38:20 GMT -5
as if the doominati was prepared to grant him redemption for everything if he apologized anyway. welp, I fucking nailed it. There were never any "chances." Will Dragonfly be the only person to not take Tormentor at his word? Let's see.  |
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dn
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Post by dn on Apr 6, 2020 14:29:07 GMT -5
I buy it, actually. It explains why his maps play and feel like such a vivisection of ideas: the ideas were those of other people.
So, let's see how the DW Goodboy points rack up -
+ 02/10 for apology.
- 10/10 for describing himself as a visionary in his apology post. Top kek.
+ 09/10 for calling the community 'beautiful'. Would have been higher, but missed out mentioning 'stunning' and 'brave'.
Result: +1
Actually, I think he's managed to salvage himself. I was expecting more fucking bits and pieces of him stuck to the walls, but as far as car wrecks go, he's only marginally more brain-damaged coming out than he was going in.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2020 14:34:32 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2020 14:48:33 GMT -5
I think this statement is valid in explaining why people are so pissed (I mean of course I do, I said it)
That and he has apparently been "accidentally" plagiarizing work for years now, been called out numerous times apparently too.
So forgive me but I do believe all this is necessary, letting anyone go unchallenged with behaviour like this just perpetuates it, then you get Matbratt all over again.
It's for the greater good... as sinister sounding as that very phrase is.
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joe-ilya
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Post by joe-ilya on Apr 6, 2020 14:56:34 GMT -5
The stated purpose of the thread was a call for him to make an apology in a forum he hardly participates in anymore while he was grieving a lost family member, and if he doesn't then he isn't owning his problem. And it was made on public display, bumped with reactions from people unaffected by it for about a day, and now the thread is locked so he can't even do it if he wanted to. Now that the thread is over, he's perceived as flaking on his "chance" to confess, as if the doominati was prepared to grant him redemption for everything if he apologized anyway. You ready for some mental gymnastics? Tell me there was love in that thread. welp, I fucking nailed it. There were never any "chances." Will Dragonfly be the only person to not take Tormentor at his word? Let's see. How is Dragonfly supposed to know that Torm is grieving over a loss? It doesn't matter TBH, that's no excuse for the rip-offs. I'm not seeing what's wrong with asking for an apology for an actually illegal case (Modifying maps that specifically say that they aren't allowed to be modified), ironically you seem to be an apologist for Torm. Torm could've screwed over Dragonfly by getting Eternal to sue Dragonfly for theft, I know it's a stretch, but The Pirate Bay hosts were jailed for hosting illegal media, so not too much of a stretch if you think about it. I also don't see how because Dragonfly made a thread about it, makes it bad, it was already known in his PUBLIC Discord server before him knowing anything, someone else would've done it anyways, Dragonfly might as well just make a topic anyways since it was already known publicly anyways, Dragonfly just provided a thread to have a more standing topic instead of the usual topic switches that are naturally done on IRC-like messengers. I see tons of love in the thread, so many people are at a disbelief that it happened and are extremely sad and angry because they loved his work so much, many are keeping their optimism and saying that it's a coincidence or an accident. The hatred comes from disappointment of a great and iconic member of the community. Dragonfly also wanted to hear Torm's side of the story, not just a plain apology. There's no evidence that the modified maps were an accident (only Torm saying it was a mislabel), but a ton of evidence that the modified maps are copy-pasted (The screenshot and overlay comparisons). So make of that what you will, I personally can't tell if it was malicious intent, I can only tell that they are copy-pasted. |
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Post by xeepeep on Apr 6, 2020 15:38:45 GMT -5
DEAR FUCKING GOD THE SHITSTORM ON COOMWORLD. I've never EVER seen a bunch of grown ass men and women SEETHING so much over anything in such unison before. Doomworld is such a goddamn echo chamber, I haven't seen things like this even on the darkest depths of reddit. Every post that the cool kids gang makes gets approximately 15 likes per word, it seems.
Shit's definitely plagiarised, and Dragonfly has every right to be mad about it (as he is responsible for the project where the plagiarism occurred), all that stands. But the pure volume of soyboy neckbeard rage trying to literally cancel someone for copy pasting a few sectors, all the denouncing and statements like "if you plagiarise, you're dead to me"... chill out people ffs! Go outs- oh wait... xd
Tormentor is a really important figure in the community and perhaps even the main face of the 2000s style of mapping. Do people really wanna disregard his massive contributions because of a few rooms?
This awfully reminds me of when everyone was shitting on Graf in very much the same fashion a few years ago. Someone said it best, I think it was our guy Doomkid, "we're far better off with an asshole and GZDoom than without it". I think the same applies here, I'd rather have Blade of Agony (which I really have to get myself to play) rather than ensure that our Precious Beautiful Community is free of the Horrific Sin of Plagiarism.
One more thing that makes Torm's "transgression" a lot less serious is that (to my knowledge) he doesn't make a penny off his maps. If money was involved, I'd more or less support everybody piling up on him but... it's not so I don't.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2020 17:17:54 GMT -5
But the pure volume of soyboy neckbeard rage trying to literally cancel someone for copy pasting a few sectors, all the denouncing and statements like "if you plagiarise, you're dead to me"... chill out people ffs! Agreed. Some people in that thread really need to get laid. Tormentor is a really important figure in the community and perhaps even the main face of the 2000s style of mapping. Do people really wanna disregard his massive contributions because of a few rooms? This awfully reminds me of when everyone was shitting on Graf in very much the same fashion a few years ago. Someone said it best, I think it was our guy Doomkid, "we're far better off with an asshole and GZDoom than without it". I think the same applies here, I'd rather have Blade of Agony (which I really have to get myself to play) rather than ensure that our Precious Beautiful Community is free of the Horrific Sin of Plagiarism. Overall I agree. I definitely think that people have a right to be angry about Tormentor stealing their work, especially since he continues to do it. And dn is right that he's always been a shifty motherfucker. But he has also made some maps that I've enjoyed the hell out of. I would gladly let him rip off one of my original ideas(not that anyone would want my crap) if it was in service of a Tormentor map or project that was truly great. One more thing that makes Torm's "transgression" a lot less serious is that (to my knowledge) he doesn't make a penny off his maps. If money was involved, I'd more or less support everybody piling up on him but... it's not so I don't. He has a pop-up on his website to donate, but I doubt anyone has ever clicked it.  |
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Post by 40oz on Apr 6, 2020 17:21:52 GMT -5
This whole situation gave me a really bad headache. I had planned to work on some doom maps today but now its making me sorry i even came back. I can't entertain any assertation that any doomer ever deserves this kind of treatment, even when they're in the wrong.
As a level designer, sectors are feckless little shapes made for free Doom maps that take mere minutes to make. No one should steal them because no one should want to be a thief of other people's ideas. As a lover of the craft, I've tried many different unorthodox ways of building maps, including surgery on other people's maps, modifying them for my own interests, retexturing them, detailing them, cutting/pasting parts together to see how they look, (for the record, this isn't very easy to do, people who say this is "lazy") and having an inspiration folder of other people's work mixed up with unfinished rooms and maps is entirely plausible to me. I've talked to Tormentor667 on WXR before and his love of Doom mapmaking and the surrounding community is pure. I hear it in his voice when he speaks emphatically about how fun it is to build your creations and work with other people. There's not an inkling of doubt that he feels horrible about all this, and I don't see a shred of selflessness in calling him out on it. Anyone who claims there was no other way to reach him is completely full of shit. I know Doomworld operates on cutting people off and making enemies out of people. I know the people reading this forum know it too.
It fucking sucks for any and all doomers who might want to start mapping to see this cruel side of the Doom community. Why would you want to donate your time and effort to such shitty people? Who does the thread serve anyway? Are the vast majority of Doom mappers that already don't plagiarize gonna super-not-plagiarize now?? WOW GREAT NEWS. THE DOOM COMMUNITY WINS AGAIN.
This dark part of doomworld has been out of sight for so long even I was actually starting to believe it was going away. Can't believe i fucking fell for it. Doomworld is poison for Doom.
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GRUG
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Post by GRUG on Apr 6, 2020 20:03:03 GMT -5
A lesson to learn in life is that you're going to find shitty people in all Internet communities. It just the way it is. Don't take it to heart.
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