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Post by wernergoldberg on Nov 3, 2023 18:12:48 GMT -5
ruskies have a different approach to grindiness tbh, it's hit and miss. all those chaingunners behind fake walls in adonis made me ragequit, but i still wish chainie finished his megawad in an alternate timeline
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Post by lunchlunch on Nov 3, 2023 18:59:53 GMT -5
40oz is largely correct. Even the dumbest player shouldn't be getting lost or confused in your maps. I feel awful when I watch a streamer get lost in my maps because it means that I fucked up. These kinds of retards are the reason why you're always forced to streamline your maps and add lights, arrows and whatever. If arrows are the only way you can think to communicate to the player, yes, you are probably failing to guide the player. I'm surprised by the responses about streamers being dumb and terrible at the game because I haven't seen that very often. Maybe there's some but the majority I've seen are generally too good at the game and are bored by anything not aimed at speedrunners. |
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Post by wernergoldberg on Nov 3, 2023 19:20:45 GMT -5
i'm sure i'm in the minority on this, but navigational challenges in doom are perfectly valid as those combat puzzles everyone has been raving about for a while. maybe not to the level of eternal doom or something, but it's the feeling of breaking down the level i experienced in past mapsets i'm sometimes missing when everything is overtly streamlined, doesn't matter if such a "challenge" is intentional on part of the mapper or not. and then you have icaruslives (for instance) "ironically" stating that a map should be perfectly readable when drunk, and that's objectively good design or something, you can just tell he hasn't played mars war recently (or boomer beyond vanilla for a more recent example of nonlinear map design, you don't have to go into puzzle/challenge/slaughter stuff). maybe it's a shit take, whatever
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Post by Killer5 on Nov 3, 2023 19:44:14 GMT -5
Interesting thread. I would say that it is interesting when I see people play continuous and don't use better weapons. I remember reading a while back that people who play continuous do this on purpose to keep it 'sporty' or whatever.
With regards to people not liking your maps I guess that comes from your intent for the map to determine whether or not it is a failure. I guess people liked zzul bases - the first three maps, I have seen lunchlunch? comment in a stream that he wished the secret map didn't exist - but that was the intent of the wad/maps. Map31 was a reaction to making super easy maps, compared to what I normally make/play, and was never supposed to be popular with anyone at all by design - I made it purposefully to be a self indulgent map.
When I made The Event Horizon I was targeting people who liked challenging wads but nothing like Dimensions tier gameplay so I expected a lot of people to not play it but the people I targeted liked the map (this is still a vast minority of the community).
If you made your map as something which was supposed to be accepted by everyone, which won't ever happen btw, then just try to figure out what went wrong. Just be sure to that it is worth your time reading into the player's reactions to your map during the playthrough first.
I wouldn't write off all streamers tbh. However if you are just venting then it is all good, but just don't read into it as 'I need to completely re-evaluate my mapping style.'
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Post by lunchlunch on Nov 3, 2023 20:27:01 GMT -5
Killer5 oh it wasn't that I wished it didn't exist, only that I didn't consider it part of Zzul Bases "proper." I believe it was a response to brendon because he seemed confused I consider ZB my favorite wad but have never played the secret map all the way through. Edit- I might have said "I just pretend it doesn't exist." wernergoldberg mazes and puzzles are legitimate obstacles, I'm referring at a macro level to layout/progression.
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Post by Killer5 on Nov 3, 2023 22:07:49 GMT -5
No worries re the comment. Just using it as one example I remember re that map. Thanks for clearing it up anyways.
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Post by dr_st on Nov 4, 2023 3:13:35 GMT -5
Even the dumbest player shouldn't be getting lost or confused in your maps. I feel awful when I watch a streamer get lost in my maps because it means that I fucked up. Unless figuring out the path through the maze is supposed to be part of the challenge. Certainly some games, and possibly even some Doom WADs have taken that approach to level design. |
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Post by lunchlunch on Nov 4, 2023 4:02:24 GMT -5
Unless figuring out the path through the maze is supposed to be part of the challenge. Certainly some games, and possibly even some Doom WADs have taken that approach to level design. mazes and puzzles are legitimate obstacles, I'm referring at a macro level to layout/progression. |
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Post by lunchlunch on Nov 4, 2023 4:20:17 GMT -5
lutumlautus If arrows are the only way you can think to communicate to the player, yes, you are probably failing to guide the player. I should probably mention some examples of ways you can lead the player rather than just leave an unhelpful catty comment- Lights, certainly. Switches and doors should be lit up. If the player opens something that isn't immediately visible, you can use flashing lights in the newly-opened doorway so the player notices it when they're near it. MonstersAlongside of or instead of the flashing lights in that new doorway, place some monsters set to ambush behind it. When the player enters the area, they'll hear the monsters wake up or see the projectiles and head in that direction LayoutWhen the player grabs a key, you can dump them back out into a hub room facing the door that corresponds to the key. You can also give the player glimpses of a future area through windows so they know not only is there an area there, they'll be motivated to find their way in. Especially if a powerup or weapon is visible. Item PickupsUse armor/health bonuses as breadcrumbs to lead the player around. You don't have to overdo it, especially if you're using health bonuses as that bright blue bulb is going to be visible from a long ways off. Players just instinctively and unthinkingly go out of their way to pick these things up so it's a great way to guide them. LandmarksOftentimes when I get lost in a map, it's because a lot of the rooms look so much the same. Vary the environment. You can have indoor areas contrasted with outdoor areas. Dark areas contrasted with bright areas. Put different architecture in different rooms, like arches in this room, pillars in that room, a sunken pool in another, enormous windows somewhere else, a claustrophobic hallway, et cetera. You can also use different textures in different parts of the map. Players tend to remember symmetrical areas better so you can make your hub rooms symmetrical. If your map is all outdoors, having one or more large towers visible from anywhere can help the player orient themselves in relation to these.
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Post by dr_st on Nov 4, 2023 5:28:42 GMT -5
lunchlunch I think I get your point. If the map is designed to confuse as part of a puzzle, that's fine. If it's confusing to the point that the player can't even figure out what the puzzle is - it's bad design. I believe I agree. I have definitely encountered frustrating moments like this in many games.
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Post by wernergoldberg on Nov 4, 2023 5:35:08 GMT -5
wernergoldberg mazes and puzzles are legitimate obstacles, I'm referring at a macro level to layout/progression. i'm personally including the somewhat obscure layout/progression of the kind you sometimes saw back in the days, or with assorted weirdos. it can be interesting when it's successful, some oldskool tomb raider level design tier shit
well maybe not the "switches hidden behind wall textures" part. it's fine having blinking lights and following the erik alm rule of combat flow if that's what you're going for. it's certainly what most people won't roast you for
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40oz
diRTbAg
Posts: 5,536
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Post by 40oz on Nov 4, 2023 8:25:15 GMT -5
Lights, certainly. Switches and doors should be lit up. If the player opens something that isn't immediately visible, you can use flashing lights in the newly-opened doorway so the player notices it when they're near it. MonstersAlongside of or instead of the flashing lights in that new doorway, place some monsters set to ambush behind it. When the player enters the area, they'll hear the monsters wake up or see the projectiles and head in that direction LayoutWhen the player grabs a key, you can dump them back out into a hub room facing the door that corresponds to the key. You can also give the player glimpses of a future area through windows so they know not only is there an area there, they'll be motivated to find their way in. Especially if a powerup or weapon is visible. Item PickupsUse armor/health bonuses as breadcrumbs to lead the player around. You don't have to overdo it, especially if you're using health bonuses as that bright blue bulb is going to be visible from a long ways off. Players just instinctively and unthinkingly go out of their way to pick these things up so it's a great way to guide them. LandmarksOftentimes when I get lost in a map, it's because a lot of the rooms look so much the same. Vary the environment. You can have indoor areas contrasted with outdoor areas. Dark areas contrasted with bright areas. Put different architecture in different rooms, like arches in this room, pillars in that room, a sunken pool in another, enormous windows somewhere else, a claustrophobic hallway, et cetera. You can also use different textures in different parts of the map. Players tend to remember symmetrical areas better so you can make your hub rooms symmetrical. If your map is all outdoors, having one or more large towers visible from anywhere can help the player orient themselves in relation to these. Terrific examples. If I may add a less obvious one, Linedef actionse.g. Doors that open automatically if the player approaches them, elevators that descend automatically, etc. Or, of course, the presence of any usable switch. In combination with monsters, pop-up traps, the sound of monster teleports, or a simple monster closet is a very direct clue that the player is doing something right. Just about any map-related movement in an otherwise still map will almost certainly draw the player's attention. -- lutumlautus You feel just as comfortable telling players what to do in a stream chat using written text -- what makes this any different? There's no shame in using any of these things to guide the player. You created the map so why wouldn't you want them to experience it in the way you designed it for? A refusal to use these available tools can be very limiting, and using them in an indirect way such as the suggestions outlined above are options to make the solution to a map's problem feel like the player figured it out on their own. |
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Post by TheFantasticFungiFan on Nov 6, 2023 17:57:35 GMT -5
What I don't understand is shitting on playtesters like Biodegradable (referring to shiba's comment). Someone like that is testing your map for the purpose of helping you, they aren't doing it for attention and subscribers. He uses mods similar to Smooth Doom - so what? As long as it isn't breaking your map by overriding important assets, all it's going to do is potentially replace your status bar (assuming you made a custom one to begin with) and maybe some sound effects (if you used custom ones to begin with). I can get being annoyed by some look-at-me streamer starting up your map with an OP weapon mod and dramatically complaining that your map sucks when they didn't even give it an honest attempt, but why would you have an issue with someone who tests hundreds of maps that wouldn't have even recieved a playthrough video otherwise? On many threads, BD is the only person who recorded a playthrough. As long as it's a relatively accurate/genuine playthrough, I wouldn't complain about things like resurrecting via console.
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Post by thundercunt on Nov 7, 2023 21:23:55 GMT -5
Speaking of streamers, the popular doom YouTuber known as "decino" is playing auger;zenith
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Post by wernergoldberg on Nov 7, 2023 21:34:04 GMT -5
decino is alright, i'll let him live. though how he managed to find the first level of a;z "mazy" is beyond me
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Post by lunchlunch on Nov 8, 2023 16:25:05 GMT -5
wernergoldbergCuppy makes very interconnected spaces, it's one of the aspects I most love about his mapping but at times it can be slightly disorienting.
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