kvsari
Doomer
I like mapping.
Posts: 327
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Post by kvsari on Dec 28, 2021 19:48:11 GMT -5
Perhaps there's another way to judge a wad; by its author. I play Impies stuff because I like his style. His latest wad, Appetite for Detention is on my to-play queue. But his other stuff like Cronus Camp for Wayward Boys (which is some weirdo low ammo stealth wad) I still found enjoyable even though its completely not my style (I even had to lower the difficulty like the limp wristed milk-sop that I am). 40oz, I daresay the ideal map for you is complete-able in a single run and pushes you to low health at times and even running away from a fight or two to survive but you win in the end without dying. For me those maps are the most thrilling as you're constantly encountering new things with the added pressure of having a single run you don't want to break. There is a special something (like a magical spell) a map holds that is lost upon the first death. But if you finish the map without dying on the first time and it pushed you... wow, that feels great. To make a map like this would require telegraphing traps and perhaps even training the player on the trap in the first 'room'. Then being consistent with the application of that telegraph for further traps in the map. There'd be other things too, such as providing escapes for arenas or something.. I don't know, I'm still learning. Another component would be rating difficulty using players. For example I myself am not so good so a map at 'kvsari' level would be beatable by someone at my skill-level on a single blind run on UV. A map at 'decino' level would be impossible for me without save scumming and lowering the difficulty and I may still just give up and not play it (I don't even attempt No Chance and Okuplok is just insane). Thus instead of giving wads points we can give a wad a rating based on the skill level of players in this forum and on the reputation of the wad author.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2021 22:02:05 GMT -5
@pintolinh0 You conveniently ignored the part where I said the review doesn't have to be for the author, it's a part of the conversation that other people get to have about it. Also cringe at "Do you even know who I am?" No. I don't. I "conveniently" ignored it because it was already been adressed before.
You can throw your "cringe" tantrums as much as you please, it just further illustrates the immature dumbass you are.
No, i wasn't presenting myself as someone worthwhile or deserving to be known, far from it - the choice of words might been poor but i took the risk as nothing better came to my mind at the time. I just thought that if i'm gonna throw any example to further illustrate what your blind presumptuous mindset couldn't apprehend, mine would be the best. Read the comments and see for yourself, and if you still didn't get it then it's beyond my capabilities.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2021 2:42:29 GMT -5
Why does there have to be a linear scale of how good, difficult or whatever a certain wad is? Perhaps the way to go is to assign "tags" indicating what kind of style the wad has. "ammo stringent", "oversupplied", "slaughter", "run-and-gun", "stealth", "stroller-friendly", etc. How many minutes to complete for a blind playthrough, for familiar playthrough, with 100% or not.
Also, yes, search wad reviews by wad author or by reviewer among other things (this probably exists).
A sticky guideline of how to write reviews can also be nice. Now, the quality (accuracy and helpfullness) of review can be rated I think, giving the incentive to actually check such a guideline.
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xeepeep
Banned
Forever
Posts: 2,338
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Post by xeepeep on Dec 29, 2021 3:57:08 GMT -5
Why does there have to be a linear scale of how good, difficult or whatever a certain wad is? Because here we are talking subjective not objective. the style of wad can be linearly transposed to how much the person likes that style.
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40oz
diRTbAg
Posts: 6,107
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Post by 40oz on Dec 30, 2021 0:52:39 GMT -5
40oz, I daresay the ideal map for you is complete-able in a single run and pushes you to low health at times and even running away from a fight or two to survive but you win in the end without dying. For me those maps are the most thrilling as you're constantly encountering new things with the added pressure of having a single run you don't want to break. There is a special something (like a magical spell) a map holds that is lost upon the first death. But if you finish the map without dying on the first time and it pushed you... wow, that feels great. To make a map like this would require telegraphing traps and perhaps even training the player on the trap in the first 'room'. Then being consistent with the application of that telegraph for further traps in the map. There'd be other things too, such as providing escapes for arenas or something.. I don't know, I'm still learning. My preference is for things that are respectful of my time. I'm not looking for a very particular style of map. Most maps will do. But really challenging stuff demands a lot of commitment to learning the map, planning a strategy, learning where the items and exits are, etc. I don't care for that. A good map should unravel itself to me naturally. When maps are really dense with monsters or have traps that demand unrealistic reaction times (or foreknowledge) or else embrace certain death, the wad creator is forcing me to play and replay sections of the map I already completed. Sure the map looks good, but if I like it enough I'll just play it again on my own accord. I don't want the mapper arbitrarily setting me back because I played their map without studying it in the level editor first. I've played enough doom where my skills should carry me through most wads, but the wad creator's capacity to kill highly skilled players is seemingly considered a badge of honor to more people than it is considered poor design, which is backwards. I've played many different wads that I've liked over the course of many years and I do replay them occasionally. And I've played some really difficult and intense wads that I enjoyed as well. These wads often have a good grasp on the damage output per second that the weapons deliver. There's usually a lot of space to move and terrain options to move up and down different heights with, and objects to take cover behind, etc. Too many times I've had to fight archviles with no cover or get locked in a small room with teleporting monsters funneling into it and if I don't have your plasma gun already out and firing within the first second, the wad is already writing my eulogy for me. Moreover, I also don't really enjoy situations with seemingly unavoidable damage without perfect execution. It's sloppy. It's mean-spirited. It's the level designers responsibility to act in good faith towards their players.
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Post by ketmar on Dec 31, 2021 10:24:38 GMT -5
slightly tangential reply (or is it?): that's why i stoped caring about "reviews" and "recommendations", and usually simply grab That Another Random Wad i spotted in "new wads". and playing it with my Zan mod. yes, Zan is waaay overpowered. so what. she is deadly; she blows through most wads without any problems; she can get down a cybbie in 15 seconds with her Paingun, and poor thing rarely has a chance to respond. definitely not the "intended gameplay". and i can't care less. it is FUN.
i mean, maybe just play new wads with some overpowered weapon mod (decorate, or dehacked), and if you liked what you've seen, play it again "for real". you can't change the way people writing about wads, so may approach it from a slightly different side? yes, it is a hack, but it may work. i think.
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nnn✓ork
Doomer
Dr. Noisystein
Posts: 721
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Post by nnn✓ork on Dec 31, 2021 16:49:55 GMT -5
Woah a heavy thread.
Here's my shot at understanding common ground here: There are countless doom wads, and that a "difficulty setting" doesn't have much unified meaning across the pantheon of all doom mapping.
I suppose someone could make cool WAD Characterization Tools to help navigate the noise? I hear MTrop has some cool wad-ripping libraries ready to be leveraged (I haven't dug into them though).
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Here's a fun model for fun:
Replace the difficulty setting graphics: "Hey Not to Rough", "Hurt Me Plenty", "Ultra Violence" with a suitable graphic that conveys the WAD better:
-Create a weight for each: monster; health/powerup; ammo type i.e: (imp:7 < revenant:40 < cyberdemon:350) (medkit:25 < soulsphere:120 < megashpere:300 < invuln sphere:400) (shell:10 < cell:40 = rocket:40 < BFG:9000) -Comb each difficulty (HNTR, HMP, UV) -Print out a graphic to replace each respective difficulty graphic. i.e: "Hey Not to Rough" becomes an ordered horizontal stack of layered monster icons; with a similar stack beneath it laying out pickups "Hurt Me Plenty" becomes one too, but hopefully in a way that shows a different gameplay spread than HNTR and how it differentiates itself.
-Maybe add another degree of complexity for other difficulty intricacies (without getting carried away) i.e: split the graphic into episodes?; Scythe and AV are backloaded as heck with difficulty and it's sometimes good to know that before digging in (unless you like the surprise).
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Also, on topic of the thread, other tertiary factors on my mind because I like typing: -I notice people tend to shy away from HNTR (the lowest difficulty) altogether. People like to feel above average at the things they do, or else why would they start or continue doing them in the first place? I always see "I play on UV and downshift to HMP if it's a hard WAD", but never HNTR. In this context it might be a faulty bias sometimes, though, because Doom Wadology is so chaotic. -Difficulty settings are often put in limp-wristedly, if at all. Contributes to the UV coalescence effect.
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Post by optimus on Jan 1, 2022 6:46:30 GMT -5
Many people on the community like maps that look great on screenshots and are more arena/slaughter map oriented. I will look at things I haven't played from the 90s early 2000s, there is more fun there, and some maps that don't try to be very detailed (although some doom cute is fun) but the sense of space and right use of textures,shadows and architecture, also an adventurous design, where things are not arenas but real places you have to explore or even abstract weird things, but not symmetric but with some design of a 3d space that is memorable. I look at old review sites like onemandoom.blogspot.com/ for example and I find a lot of hidden gems I haven't played before. Or old WADs I have forgotten and want to replay. Or one can make maps based on your classic inspirations. I am very inspired to make new maps the more I play oldschool stuff. p.s. But yeah, I find myself overwhelmed by some of the modern WADs released, while I agree they are very polished, they are also following things by the book in the design, so there is not much unique things about them to keep me, rather than polished arena style areas with too many monsters that make me hit the save button a lot.
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Post by optimus on Jan 1, 2022 8:02:09 GMT -5
Sidenote, I don't like the suggestion of adding easifying MODs (like Grinder or Russian Overkill) as it's changing the intention of what the original map difficulty was to be. I don't feel like I am playing the original WAD as intended, that's also why if a WAD makes me have to cheat, it pisses me off because I feel like I didn't completed it the way it was intended. The only MOD I use sometimes is AutoAutoSave, it periodically auto saves, so if you forget to save spam, you are saved. And just because I wanted to avoid savespam. But normally I don't like to have played half the map and have to restart again. So I end up autosaving anyway, even with autoautosave enabled
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40oz
diRTbAg
Posts: 6,107
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Post by 40oz on Jan 1, 2022 10:23:33 GMT -5
The major source of my frustration is that i find too many comments about doom wads to be inauthentic.
While some accurate comments slip through, most comments are more in the interest of being supportive without being an accurate take of someone who actually played the wad to completion, (or more likely, to the point where it was too difficult to proceed further.)
The most supportive comments are usually first in the topics opening, and usually come hours, minutes, even after the thread is made. Some wads have so much content it takes multiple days to complete, and when its very difficult i have to take breaks because its getting frustrating and unenjoyable. Its impossible to prove, but i dont believe the people who made these comments even played the wad. I'd like to stand over their shoulder and watch and listen to them shout with glee about how amazing this experience is while they are playing it. I am absolutely sure the reaction would not be the same.
If there were visible timestamps of the likes on doomworld, the only ones that mean anything on a big projects' release page are the ones that come maybe a week after it was posted, because the time before that doesnt realistically account for going to your PC, downloading the wad, loading it up, and starting to play it after youre done playing whatever you were playing last, and then playing it sufficiently enough to comment on it. The content of these comments suggest as such when theyre so unspecific.
Save scumming, using cheats, or gameplay modifiers isnt fun even when it works. It feels disrespectful. Many wads come with their own dehacked patches or port specific gameplay modifications like new weapons or monsters that are not friendly with other mods. If it was meant to this accessible to advance further in the wad, then it wouldnt be released in this state. It also doesn't mesh well aesthetically and sometimes its not clear from the players perspective when things break. I highly doubt any mapper would suggest players modify the gameplay in their maps with mods if they arent including it with the package themselves.
I really don't mind that ultra difficult/challenge wads exist. I like difficult wads sometimes. Sometimes they are exactly what I feel like playing. What I dont like is that people will comment favorably on these wads. Either to throw mappers their empty, meaningless, support, or worse, say they like the super difficult wad as a flex.
Im not convinced the general public of active doom players (not forum snobs, i mean players) are insatiably hungry for more brutally difficult wads to play. Theres already too many of them, and they take a long time to play, much less complete, and much less to speedrun. The upward trajectory of difficult wads in the sphere of whats popular and recommended is ruining the game.
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xeepeep
Banned
Forever
Posts: 2,338
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Post by xeepeep on Jan 1, 2022 11:54:25 GMT -5
Those supportive comments almost always come from people who knew of the wad before the public release. On doomer boards we also have the first few comments of each DBP release thread like that. Or if you were to have me playtest UAC Ultra 2 before release (please do), I would also be the first comment in the release thread saying "OMG FAWTY SLAY KQWUEEEN UWU". Ofc there are dickriders too but those are a minority. Im not convinced the general public of active doom players (not forum snobs, i mean players) are insatiably hungry for more brutally difficult wads to play. Idk man. A lot of people like difficult games, evidenced by the popularity of roguelikes and Ultra Nightmare difficulties and such. I also don't think it's ruining the game, actually the opposite -- it presents new challenges to new players and such. Because let's be real, although we all like it, the base Doom game is super easy for a modern gamer.
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Post by ketmar on Jan 1, 2022 14:10:35 GMT -5
Save scumming, using cheats, or gameplay modifiers isnt fun even when it works. It feels disrespectful. tbh, that's something i was never able to understand. i mean, wad authors making wads for other people to have fun. does it really matter how exactly i will have fun? ok, the author may put a lot of efforts balancing the wad for "normal play". great, those efforts are *not* wasted: i expect that balance even when playing with mods, and i appreciate it. i believe that the only disrespectful thing here is when somebody's demanding from map author to "fix" their maps for some mod.
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good-old
Doomer
18 year old dumb kid.
Posts: 421
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Post by good-old on Jan 3, 2022 4:31:06 GMT -5
slightly tangential reply (or is it?): that's why i stoped caring about "reviews" and "recommendations", and usually simply grab That Another Random Wad i spotted in "new wads". and playing it with my Zan mod. yes, Zan is waaay overpowered. so what. she is deadly; she blows through most wads without any problems; she can get down a cybbie in 15 seconds with her Paingun, and poor thing rarely has a chance to respond. definitely not the "intended gameplay". and i can't care less. it is FUN. i mean, maybe just play new wads with some overpowered weapon mod (decorate, or dehacked), and if you liked what you've seen, play it again "for real". you can't change the way people writing about wads, so may approach it from a slightly different side? yes, it is a hack, but it may work. i think. Lol this actually sounds pretty good. Problem is it may ruin the fun you get on first experience, and the pre-knowledge may make it way easier/a bit less fun on the "real" playthrough. noisyvelvet's "weight" system does look pretty cool, but the difficulty depends on a lot more. For a cyberdemon, you can either get an invulnerabity, or telefrag, or just a rocket launcher(which sucks against it), or have a spiderdemon/big group of other monsters to have it infight to deal with it, so it does have some problems. There's also the size of the area you're fighting it in, it's splash damage makes that matter a lot. It can evolve into something better if more worked on though, probably. Also the "shying away from HNTR" thing is actually real, I still do that lol. I will look at things I haven't played from the 90s early 2000s, there is more fun there, and some maps that don't try to be very detailed (although some doom cute is fun) but the sense of space and right use of textures,shadows and architecture, also an adventurous design, where things are not arenas but real places you have to explore or even abstract weird things, but not symmetric but with some design of a 3d space that is memorable. I look at old review sites like onemandoom.blogspot.com/ for example and I find a lot of hidden gems I haven't played before. Or old WADs I have forgotten and want to replay. Sidenote, I don't like the suggestion of adding easifying MODs (like Grinder or Russian Overkill) as it's changing the intention of what the original map difficulty was to be. I don't feel like I am playing the original WAD as intended, that's also why if a WAD makes me have to cheat, it pisses me off because I feel like I didn't completed it the way it was intended. The only MOD I use sometimes is AutoAutoSave, it periodically auto saves, so if you forget to save spam, you are saved. And just because I wanted to avoid savespam. But normally I don't like to have played half the map and have to restart again. So I end up autosaving anyway, even with autoautosave enabled I agree with this, and that website is actually a good one, I recommend it too. Thanks for mentioning the mod, that's something that Serious Sam had that Doom needed! Save scumming, using cheats, or gameplay modifiers isnt fun even when it works. It feels disrespectful. Many wads come with their own dehacked patches or port specific gameplay modifications like new weapons or monsters that are not friendly with other mods. If it was meant to this accessible to advance further in the wad, then it wouldnt be released in this state. It also doesn't mesh well aesthetically and sometimes its not clear from the players perspective when things break. I highly doubt any mapper would suggest players modify the gameplay in their maps with mods if they arent including it with the package themselves. Most gameplay mods take care of the balance, so it's usually not a problem. Yes, some of them are a bit more powerful than the vanilla ones, but hey, monster mods exist too! Also about meshing aesthetically, I don't think the vanilla monsters match with ALL the wads out there, so it shouldn't be a problem. I agree that playing them with overpowered stuff doesn't feel fair though.
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40oz
diRTbAg
Posts: 6,107
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Post by 40oz on Jan 6, 2022 17:04:51 GMT -5
@pintolinh0 I dont know how to respond to most of what youre saying about me because you are adding a lot of context to my posts where there is none. It would be cool to have a debate over this but a lot of what you are saying that i am saying simply is not true.
i dont have a preferred person or source for doom wad reviews and would like to have one (or two, or three) The reason being that in order to find stuff to play, i rely on screenshots, what gets more recommendations from doom community randos, and to read the comments in thread topics in doomworld wads and mods.
In my experience this is not working for me anymore because most people dont say what they mean. Often theyre just sold on the eye candy in the screenshots, or just voicing support for mappers they like.
Even when people do play the wads and upload longplay videos, their written words say the map is beautiful and they liked it and maybe found a texture misalignment here or a softlock there, etc. Though when I skim through, Ill see them getting frustrated and their expressions don't match what the supportive comments they wrote or the qualifiers they'll say when they talk about the wad. Perhaps in hopes of getting reciprocated support when they make maps themselves?
If this community had more dedicated reviewers (with their own styles and preferences) there would be more of a checks and balances system between mappers and players/reviewers, because, as i see it, mappers are outnumbering players and are far too protected. I presume this is from the backing of doom community spectators. e.g. People who participate in the easily digestible content like the community talk, watching live streams, liking screenshots, watching videos of speedruns and doom's source code and development history. But not players actively playing the game. Because from a playing perspective a lot of modern doom content that these spectators consider to be humbling is just unplayable garbage, and mappers really need to hear that.
If wads were more playable, people posting their legit thoughts on their experience playing the wad would come more organically. Writing thoughtful commentary on a wad is a chore. Some people will settle for calling maps evil or brutal but usually this is because the content is so dense with maps, large maps with tons of monsters and requires a lot of time to play and is really just disrespectful of the players time.
lastly, lets talk about the topic you want to talk about in the thread that it is about?
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Post by dr_st on Jan 16, 2022 14:44:48 GMT -5
This is a very long thread, so I could only skim through it. I sense a recurring theme in 40oz posts here - that many of the highly praised WADs have mediocre gameplay (at least for the common player) - as in, they are too hard, too time-consuming etc. Maybe the focus shifted in recent years to focus more on beautiful vistas and architecture and less on fights / progression? Certainly as a mediocre DOOMer, I would probably agree that most of the "top bla-bla" WADs would be out of my league. I just always assumed that the crowd of veterans has gotten so good at the game that they simply need the challenge, or else its boring. And it may be that because these veterans are those which have been "with the game" the longest, that they drive the trend.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2022 16:54:16 GMT -5
I sense a recurring theme in 40oz posts here - that many of the highly praised WADs have mediocre gameplay (at least for the common player) - as in, they are too hard, too time-consuming etc. Maybe the focus shifted in recent years to focus more on beautiful vistas and architecture and less on fights / progression? I invite you mister to stop falling into 40oz's baits for a moment and travel back to simpler times and see for yourself that reviews... reviews never changes. Tastes can shift, but diRTbAgs only get older and grumpy.
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