DBPs... with longer development times?

Nah Joe, that server is all good.  I'm talking about a different server - one that I left.

Since 40oz doesn't upload DBPs to IDGames, then maybe someone else can fix all the bugs and then upload to IDGames.

I spent like an hour looking for a specific doomworld chronicles /newstuff review, I can't find it. I probably should have screenshotted but I had no reason to expect it would be gone. I think a whole bunch of /newstuff chronicles posts are missing or something.

Anyway, there was once a /newstuff review by Udderdude of the first map I made that I ever uploaded to idgames. It's a few paragraphs long, and he ripped my map up. He said I was lazy, didn't care. He spent all his ammo, found monsters that couldnt move because they were stuck together, and then discovered a softlock. Then he put text overlays on the screenshots that said WTF and sarcastic jokes about it. I really didn't expect that. It was really difficult to read. And it was posted as a news item on doomworld so I know a bunch of other people read it too. I knew it wasn't my best work but it couldn't have been that bad. But in his one opinion, he thought my mapping was a complete waste of time.

If you wanna go back in history, people remember Erik Alm for his work in Scythe 2, not the weird speedmaps he made. People look up to mechadon as a beacon of doom mapping greatness for his beautiful sectorcraft in Vela Pax and upcoming Supplice. Not for the weird jankiness of salamandastron's fortress. Go look at the reviews before people knew mechadon the way people know him today. Is it surprising?

www.doomworld.com/idgames/levels/doom2/Ports/m-o/mek-salm

When you make maps, you're going to start somewhere. You just have to. You have to do this to start your mapping career catalog. You need to see what people think about your maps that you consider done when you post them for people to play. When people worry about this stuff prior to posting, they stagnate. It's impossible to know every thing they're gonna say. With every Doomer Boards Project I make a map for, I'm still amazed by the random complaints they find in my maps. Some people are just like that. It's not our job to make them happy. We do this for free. There's many video game companies that put their games in constant development cycles and updates. If you played the game while it was new and then return to it a year later, its hardly even the same game anymore.

Where you started is absolutely amazing. Like it or not, there's a large segment of the doom community (and especially in gaming in general) who are just lazy commentors. They don't know what it's like to make maps, much less make the ones you make in only one month. They think we are the ones who are lazy because a perfect gameplay experience is the baseline standard, and anything that is slightly unordinary is a glaring issue to them. They have no idea how much work you put into crafting this out of nothing in a way that's fun.
The reality is that what you accomplish in one month is absolutely amazing whether the lazy player believes so or not. It just is.

People who have an expectation for everything to be perfect are assholes. The strict rules this project abides by are to facilitate the process of map creation. Correcting every bug people can find is not reasonable. When video games are a product and money is involved, employees are forced into working long overtime hours to do this. You're already doing this for free. I'm not trapping mappers to be spread across working multiple ongoing projects at once. In terms of the value and skills earned from mapping and keeping the process fun, I'm 100% sure that spreading mappers across multiple ongoing projects will make the projects exhausting, feel like an obligation, feel like a job. I don't want to be obligated to tinker with my creations forever. And I will never encourage anyone to feel that same way with this project either. There is always open doom projects that are frozen in the perfectionism stage of development. They're in constant beta or release candidate stage. Shits never done. People are always stuck working on them forever. If that's what you want, YOU CAN JOIN THOSE. THEY WANT YOUR HELP.

Try this: Try asking anyone who hasn't mapped for doomer boards project if they will make a map for the next one. My prediction is that there's like an 85% chance they'll tell you Ah, I would, but I'm already locked into too many different projects as it is. They're stuck bugfixing and perfecting their creations forever! It's a waste of time! Try making a map, posting it up, and then after all the bugs and reviews come in, spend the next month tailoring your map to their reviews. See if you can get people to care about a map they already knew about a month ago. Believe me, most people don't care. People have their experiences, they record their demos, they play it live on twitch where other people can see it, They see the bugs when its fresh. But all in all, it was a gratuitously positive playing experience. It doesn't matter after the project is over. Just do a better job next time.

The process of having dbp projects back-to-back / open-and-close is that this project will:

1) Always be open to mappers at any given time one feels like making a map. (except for... lol, the last couple days before release)
2) When you do, you can get in and out of it in a month and then be free to work on other stuff if you want to.

Your mapping skill is always going to representative of your most recent creation. This project is not for perfectionism. It's a push to get you to make something. So you can quickly experience what it's like to have someone play your map and tell you what they think about it. It is so you can get used to making stuff fast so you can make whatever you want when you feel like making it. That's the skill I want mappers to be able to pull out of this. That's my goal. Protecting you from criticism is not.

If you want to develop as a mapper, you don't need to listen to lazy commentors. You should listen to the people here who have a vested interest in making your maps great. Because their maps are with yours too and all part of the same package. They want the project to succeed. It doesn't help the project be great if everyone participating can have an attitude of "bahhh who the fuck cares were just gonna bugfix it all later anyway." That doesn't encourage people to do their best. They can drop off literal garbage heaps and then when its compiled and released to the public they get all the benefits of getting their maps played and they can disappear if they want to. I'm not paying them, so they have no obligation to come back and do the boring shit. So if you want it done, someone else will have to do it themselves, which will probably end up being me. That shit sucks and and fucks over everyone else involved.

When you eventually decide to make your own projects, you can bugfix them to your heart's content. I don't care if other people bugfix their projects forever. That's what they're doing. This is what I'm doing. And if people don't like it, they wouldn't be a part of it.

hey, i found the way to solve bugfixing problem! just start a community project named "DBPxx-BUGFIX" at the respective DBP release date, and hold it for a week or two. then those mappers who want to do bugfixes may join and bugfix their maps, and others may simply skip it. no need to force new rules in the existing DBP, and people can choose to stick with "what was released is frozen", or not. and everybody is happy.

wow, ketmar is so smart!

5000000000000 IQ indeed

40oz good post

Dude. I read your posts sentence for sentence. There isn't a single fucking question mark in any of them.

I have borderline PTSD dealing with doomworld people? I think it's the goddamn opposite. People from doomworld have PTSD dealing with doomworld. They think they can't do anything unless they have direct instructions to do it. People on doomworld talk shit instead of doing things. Instead of just being direct about what they want, they say backhanded shit in hopes that you'll feel bad and your behavior will change as a result. That's the culture they created. They dont want to be the ones to initiate important questions or be direct about the problems of doomworld. Why? I would recommend asking there, but its a cyclical problem that somehow bleeds itself over to my forum.

YOU ARE ALLOWED TO ASK QUESTIONS HERE. YOU DO NOT REQUIRE MY PERMISSION TO DO SO. I WILL NOT STOP YOU.

This whole goddamn thing DID NOT stem from a question. It started with dmdr posting negative opinions and bug reports on the release thread after the project was done, and then crossposting his complaints having to do with me over here. When i stated my reasons for doing the things the way I do them, he commanded me to stop being "passive-aggressive" + so many more words. What the fuck is that about? Since no one except for ketmar is being direct about what they want, the way the other posts read to me is that the implication is that you want me to feel bad about the way the project is going for reasons I personally don't agree with. dmdr did not fucking ask if you could start up a bugfixing project. Nor did he take it upon himself to just do it.

Again, you don't NEED my permission to do that. You never did. This is doomer boards, you can do whatever the fuck you want. I almost never stop anybody from doing anything unless it's directly harmful or disruptive to the doomer boards community.

I'm willing to do some bug fixing and uploading to IDGames the bug fixed versions, I did it with my DBPs and I'll do it to 40oz's DBPs, now that there's demand and I know 40oz doesn't upload DBPs to IDGames.

I'm willing to help bugfix as well (and do want to bugfix my maps - already have some stuff bugfixed). I can start a thread later today, I'm working right now so I can't reply too thoroughly at the moment. Out of curiousity, how do you guys think the thread should be built? I'm thinking maybe of having a general bugfix thread for DBPs 34-present where we can track the bugs and maybe create a new thread yearly with the goal of getting the DBPs of each year bugfixed by the end of the year at latest.

Edit: Saw the Cuppy list @dmslr posted and can update to account for those DBPs as well.

Edit Edit: Also, what forum do you guys think would be the most appropriate to start this thread in?