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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2020 6:53:05 GMT -5
I'd like to take a moment to go over the whole Ascension debacle one more time. Specifically, I want to talk about the wad's edgy content. Edgy content in Western media is becoming rarer nowadays. This is partially due to the higher moral standards of today, but it's also simply because in that part of the world edgy content has already served its purpose. You may question the artistic merits of Beavis and Butt-Head, Happy Tree Friends or Duke Nukem 3D, but that's besides the point. These works weren't necessarily looking for the most nuanced ways of being provoking and offensive: they were simply making a statement that "Yes, this is fucking gross and I'm gonna do it just because I can. Suck it, government fuckheads". Now, thanks to these pieces of media, westerners know that that kind of stuff can be done, they earned and defended that right, so the next question becomes: how to do it tastefully. What you need to realize is that in Russia we're nowhere near that level. The government continues to actively suppress our speech and our art, sites get banned, internet users receive fines, influential artists of avantgarde cinema and theater go to prison. We're still at that point where any edgy content is considered an exceedingly valuable part of sticking it to the man, and therefore must be protected at all costs. You could compare it to a child only becoming more interested in swear words after his parents tell him not to use them: yes, it is often juvenile but it's also an important act of rebellion. We admire your levels of freedom and strive to get there some day. So when you turn around and side with the moralists by telling us what we can or can't do in our art, all we see is betrayal, as if you became the very thing you swore to destroy, making us feel like we're fighting for nothing. It's like if Robin Hood suddenly said: "You know what, fuck you poor guys, the rich elites were right all along. They should decide how you live, and if they happen to be too busy having sex with alien hookers at their New World Order parties, I'll just save them the trouble and volunteer to oppress you by myself". It's extremely disheartening. I hope you can understand the impact of what you're doing a bit better now. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2020 10:04:32 GMT -5
Yeah just out of spite and because I can I want to draw specifically female corpses for Doom (lol context) and I agree that sticking it to the man is an important thing to do. THE definition of evil is wanting to have power over others (and people who want that power should never have it, wanting you to believe certain things, being oppressive in general et cetera). Just because someone is offended doesn't mean they're right. I was honestly upset that the mod's contents ended up being altered in order to appease the power tripping liars. Cowardice and tyranny is disgusting and so is compliance with such. Shutting people up who they (even subconsciously) know they can't win against is, quite, fascist as fuck (though I mostly say that because I imagine they like to talk about being anti-fascist). Doom mod secret police? Fuck. Off.
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Oct 26, 2020 11:21:16 GMT -5
Man, that really does put things into perspective. I didn't know until just now the scale of the Russian government's oppression on the art and creative scene. For that reason I totally understand using Doom as an outlet to get those feelings out. Especially, when they are subject to criminal charges in pretty much anything else. That's really fucked, and I understand from a creative perspective the necessity to do it.
I hope my words aren't hollow to you. I never and never will review the content of someone's artistic expression as a subject to ban. I've had this kind of unwanted pressure put on me at Doomworld and it fucking sucks. I will tell you that I do have personal opinions about this kind of stuff, and if you care about them, you might end up reading them. But that's about as far as I'm willing to let my administrative power go. They're only opinions. I really despise any kind of arbitrary rules that would force people out of the Doom community, especially creative people with a lot of talent and pent up suffering that needs a release.
For those reasons I am 110% on your side.
Stop me if I'm wrong. I'm guessing what prompted this thread is that my lefty opinions (which are likely molded by my immediate environment) have become a reminder of the particular archetype of a leader who uses their power to excommunicate their own kind for some superior moral code. I promise not to become that. I'm here to serve Doomers first. Although I personally agree with the ends of some radical left ideology (diversity, free expression, lovey dovey utopia etc.,) I'm often perturbed by the means in which many think they have to go for to get it. I don't really know what the answers are, exactly, but it involves inspiring a sort of willingness to cooperate together on our commonalities and voluntarily leaving our differences alone.
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xeepeep
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Post by xeepeep on Oct 26, 2020 13:55:14 GMT -5
Boohoo I'm from this and this country so I'm allowed to be tasteless and immature
Grow up Shadowman and take the L
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2020 14:23:57 GMT -5
I'd like to take a moment to go over the whole Ascension debacle one more time. Specifically, I want to talk about the wad's edgy content. Edgy content in Western media is becoming rarer nowadays. This is partially due to the higher moral standards of today, but it's also simply because in that part of the world edgy content has already served its purpose. You may question the artistic merits of Beavis and Butt-Head, Happy Tree Friends or Duke Nukem 3D, but that's besides the point. These works weren't necessarily looking for the most nuanced ways of being provoking and offensive: they were simply making a statement that "Yes, this is fucking gross and I'm gonna do it just because I can. Suck it, government fuckheads". Now, thanks to these pieces of media, westerners know that that kind of stuff can be done, they earned and defended that right, so the next question becomes: how to do it tastefully. What you need to realize is that in Russia we're nowhere near that level. The government continues to actively suppress our speech and our art, sites get banned, internet users receive fines, influential artists of avantgarde cinema and theater go to prison. We're still at that point where any edgy content is considered an exceedingly valuable part of sticking it to the man, and therefore must be protected at all costs. You could compare it to a child only becoming more interested in swear words after his parents tell him not to use them: yes, it is often juvenile but it's also an important act of rebellion. We admire your levels of freedom and strive to get there some day. So when you turn around and side with the moralists by telling us what we can or can't do in our art, all we see is betrayal, as if you became the very thing you swore to destroy, making us feel like we're fighting for nothing. It's like if Robin Hood suddenly said: "You know what, fuck you poor guys, the rich elites were right all along. They should decide how you live, and if they happen to be too busy having sex with alien hookers at their New World Order parties, I'll just save them the trouble and volunteer to oppress you by myself". It's extremely disheartening. I hope you can understand the impact of what you're doing a bit better now. You raise good point but the effect seems to have worn off. Yes, the government can't censor you anymore but being banned on Twitter, Facebook, YouTube or even Doomworld, as in Shadowman's case is just as bad. The digital space is the public forum now and no one could have predicted its coming and extremists on both the right and the left of the spectrum are trying to exploit this. So no, instead of telling the government to suck it, we gotta tell big corporations like Twitter, Google and so on to suck it. He didn't deserve to get banned imo. I hope he comes around here and makes a few cool maps. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2020 15:19:06 GMT -5
He didn't deserve to get banned imo. I hope he comes around here and makes a few cool maps. I hope so too. |
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Post by scubasteve on Oct 26, 2020 17:03:39 GMT -5
Edgy content in Western media is becoming rarer nowadays. The number one song in America is called "Wet Ass Pussy" and a Borat sequel—where a woman exposes her bleeding vagina while dancing at a debutante ball—is the highest trending film on streaming services. What world are you living in where edgy content is becoming "rarer" in western media? |
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dn
Body Count: 02
the motherfucking darknation
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Post by dn on Oct 26, 2020 19:31:57 GMT -5
The number one song in America is called "Wet Ass Pussy" and a Borat sequel—where a woman exposes her bleeding vagina while dancing at a debutante ball—is the highest trending film on streaming services. What world are you living in where edgy content is becoming "rarer" in western media? In other thread news, what the fuck is the point in being a troll if you are not pissing off the right people? You want a round of applause from fucking doomworld of all places? You want to rise to fucking legend, you learn to exalt in the lamentations of retards and gimps with anime avatars. Rebellion and revolution start at home. Crucify a hundred Laura Crofts the next time, you'll be able to hear the puritans Reeeeee from the hard fucking vacuum of outer space. Fuck your primogenitors on DW; kill your parents. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2020 22:19:54 GMT -5
I think the lesson we've learned from the Shadowman incident wasn't that the content being "edgy" was in itself a bad thing, it was that Shadowman didn't have permission to be edgy because he wasn't part of the right crew. We see this double standard exemplified very well in the modern U.S. Democratic party, which always accuses the other side of what they themselves are guilty of doing. All that we've heard being leveled at Trump for 3+ years is "Russian influence, Russian corruption, Russian spies!". Yet even with the full weight of the FBI, CIA, the Deep State, and every swamp creature with a soul-shaking hatred of the orange man, nothing was ever proven. In fact, he was exonerated. But now that it's becoming all too clear that Biden's son Hunter peddled his father's influence with a hostile foreign regime for profit, and a cut of that profit went into Joe's pocket, suddenly Twitter and Facebook want to outright scrub the story from all of social media and relegate it to some dark corner of the internet where no one will see it. Different team, different rules.
In terms of Doom user-created content, look no further than Kama Sutra. The last level features a giant Doom-cute vagina between two sector-made spread legs. It's one of the most revered wads of all time; it's authors are saints. But if someone else who isn't part of the elite class dares to inject something slightly suggestive into a mod they make, suddenly it's time to trot out the usual character assassinations such as "Sociopath!" and "Misogynist!"
Anyone who calls themselves "liberal" or "progressive" or "antifa" and then tries to censor, limit, abolish, or control certain speech on ludicrous grounds such as "potential to offend" might do well to look up the term "fascist", because it's quite literally what they are.
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Post by dr_st on Oct 27, 2020 0:52:39 GMT -5
@vordakk
What you've described in your above post is the essence of the political left, in all times and all places.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2020 2:19:23 GMT -5
Edgy content in Western media is becoming rarer nowadays. The number one song in America is called "Wet Ass Pussy" and a Borat sequel—where a woman exposes her bleeding vagina while dancing at a debutante ball—is the highest trending film on streaming services. What world are you living in where edgy content is becoming "rarer" in western media? It's not the same thing. Sascha Baron is a powerful guy with the right opinions. The average guy on YouTube or whatever doesn't have that freedom. I don't like it when people try to ban stuff. If they got their way, we wouldn't have Doom, Mortal Kombat, Duke Nukem or any other cool shit. EDIT: The only way you know you have true free speech is if this movie can co-exist with a similar one with the exactly opposite views. TIME said in their review of Borat: We think we want humor to be safe, as we want most things in life to be safe. But good humor can sometimes cut. The point is to make us uncomfortable. But I really don't think they would have the same opinion if the movie was a satire of the current liberal agenda. What if it made fun of trans people, feminists, Hillary Clinton, AOC, the hard left twitter crowd and so on? I bet Twitter wouldn't allow a single mention of it just how they rightly bad rightwing extremists but the anime avatar, ACAB crowd violent communists are free to say whatever. The rules need to apply universally. You only have free speech if both of these movies are allowed to co-exist. You don't want to live in a world without being able to say whatever you want. In my country during Communist times, saying a joke about the dictator could land you in jail for 6 months. It happened to my uncle, who got snitched by someone because everyone was encouraged to listen to what their neighbors were saying and report it to the police. I'm sure there are certain segments of Twitter who would want something similar. You don't want to contribute to that, no matter how small your forum is. |
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Oct 27, 2020 8:03:53 GMT -5
Man you guys fucking suck at talking to each other. Nevermind left and right politics because it's all fucking stupid. When you spend as much energy as you do talking about what's wrong about the other side, it's just time you're avoiding spending looking at your own fucking problems. Shut the fuck up.
Nevertheless I'm aware of my own hypocrisy by administrating Doomer Boards that basically exists only to define itself by its opposition.
Scubasteve is right that there is provocative media coming from all sides. Sexism and misogyny are tired concepts and are rooted in unhealthy thoughts that really should be evaluated more closely, because no one's personal suffering is caused by an entire gender. It just isn't. Most people know that now and it's not edgy anymore. It's poor self-awareness.
Yet, scubasteve somehow neglected all of the context of the thread about the parallel of Russian government and doomworld where under both thumbs, people are treated like criminals for their thoughts.
Listening to you guys parrot the "This is the problem with liberal media and the democratic left" is so fucking exhausting, because what you guys are posting as your own individual thoughts are exactly the same message I hear from Turning Point USA, New York Post, Breitbart, Ben Shapiro, and anyone else in the oversaturated network of conservative media. Not everything is fucking left/right politics. It's especially stupid when you're citing Twitter and other social media giants as an oppressive anti-free speech regime. There's no shortage of conservative media, and they are ON TWITTER. Saying that they are constantly under attack from censorship is their shitty way to get idiots like you to spread their message because teh librulz is trying to take them down. Conservative media is a BUSINESS. It's fucking everywhere, we've all heard it, shut the fuck up, please.
Moreover, Twitter, Youtube, and other social media giants have rules that prevent the overt and excessive harrassment or cyberbullying of one to another, or one to targeted groups, or one to swaths of people. This is a good thing. Because of how bloated these sites are, they have to use automatic algorithms to detect harrassment, which is not so good, but it might be once its perfected. Now what's stupid about the Shadowman thing is Doomworld isn't social media. No one gives a fuck about doomworld. No one in my real life knows what the fuck doomworld is. It's not some sort of megaphone where you can spread hate speech and perviate it through the world through shitty Doom maps. It's insane to think Doom has even half of that kind of influence. Most people who are on doom forums these days are here because they have nowhere else to go. It's really fucked up to treat them like enemies, especially when playing Doom and making maps is the lifeblood of the entire fucking community.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2020 9:40:32 GMT -5
I disagree that Shadowman's intentions were to produce specific kind of content for "edginess" sake.
Actually, "edgy" is a particular viewpoint of only some observers and I need not to subscribe to that fallacious viewpoint, and thus I refuse to use their term. It is not about content being edgy, or the author being edgy, it's about doomworld staff being on a power trip and having the belief they can make great changes to the world by using their power over doomworld members as a resource, and their method is to eradicate/ostracise all people whose worldview conflicts with their own, and they are constantly on look out for anything that can be interpreted as a sign of person having that worldview. Nobody can be even expected to know what will trip them off and what they will write off as edgy and what kind of post or action will warrant being banned by them - the staff over there are simply lunatics who have lunatics' thoughts.
Naturally, yes, they won't be oppressing members of their own clique, because those are already trusted to have a specific worldview - the only one acceptable to them. But oppression of outsiders is not due to edginess, edginess is just an excuse. What you see is a person you want to get rid of because you sense they don't agree to your worldview - what evidence you find to destroy their public image and remove their influence is another thing.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2020 13:14:51 GMT -5
There's no shortage of conservative media, and they are ON TWITTER. Saying that they are constantly under attack from censorship is their shitty way to get idiots like you to spread their message because teh librulz is trying to take them down. From the USA Today article: During the 2016 presidential campaign, Google was accused of manipulating search results to favor Hillary Clinton’s candidacy. Also, research at Harvard University found that Google’s search rankings are not objective, and in 2017, the company was fined billions of dollars by the European Union for manipulating search results.
Google also maintains at least nine shadowy blacklists that affect what the public sees when using its search engine.
When it’s not manipulating the internet to prevent users from viewing right-wing content, Google is directly attacking that content. A report by The Daily Caller News Foundation revealed that Google’s fact-checking service “fact-checked” only conservative news websites, and that in many cases, these fact-checks were outright wrong. What does it say about the fact-checker when its fact-checking is biased and incorrect?
Sometimes, the tech giant just attacks conservatives directly. In one infamous example, a Google search result listed “Nazism” as an official ideology of the California GOP. North Carolina Sen. Trudy Wade, a Republican, was shocked to discover that the top search result for her name returned a photo labeling her as a bigot.
If something vaguely conservative and intellectually stimulating manages to get past Google’s content gatekeepers, they just remove it. YouTube, which is owned by Google, routinely demonetizes, restricts and censors conservative content. One target of YouTube was Dennis Prager’s PragerU, which had 40 of its videos restricted. Prager sued the social media video giant this year following these unfounded restrictions. YouTube has also been known for banning pro-life videos. |
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Oct 27, 2020 13:38:34 GMT -5
Oops forgot to check who wrote the article. You're being lied to, my friend.  |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2020 13:41:37 GMT -5
So someone supporting Trump automatically means they are a liar? You're proving our point about the way the left works by using tactics from their playbook, bud. Don't argue the merits of the research, don't bother looking into the data, just attack the person who wrote the article with ad hominems and character assassinations.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2020 13:43:35 GMT -5
Here's the other guy's bio, in case you want to dig up dirt on him too:
Richard Hanania is a Research Fellow at the Saltzman Institute of War and Peace Studies at Columbia University. Richard's academic interests include nuclear policy, American grand strategy, political psychology, the politics of the Middle East, and international law. He also uses statistical modeling and text analysis in order to investigate the behavior of international organizations. Among other journals, his work has appeared in International Studies Quarterly and the Journal of Cold War Studies.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2020 13:56:21 GMT -5
Good post @memfis and it gives an interesting persective on the matter. I think it's hard to unravel why the media is getting sanitazed, at least from certain things, but you can point of some obvious culprits like how the pop and nerd culture changed and how social media gave a good hand for that. Then some things are the same as ever but they just have different guise and targets, once it was Rock n' Roll that would lead you to drugs and satan, then it was DnD, even fucking Harry Potter wasn't spared from similar critics. As for the higher moral standards of today if you meant more demanding on the surface I agree, but maybe that's what you meant, but not as in more noble because most of the times there aren't moral standards at all. It's all a self-righteous charade often used to bully other people, and even if in Shadowman case bullying isn't the correct term that's how it went.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2020 14:14:43 GMT -5
40ozI wasn't talking about big media corporations, who are after all part of the establishment, or even bullies. I was talking about how small people with right wing or even moderate views get banned, sometimes rightfully, but ACAB, Antifa loons with anime avatars get to stay. If they want to ban extremists, they should ban ALL political extremists, not just one side. The rules need to apply to everyone. I don't think Shadowman would have been banned if he had crucified Trump instead.
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joe-ilya
Hey, Ron! Can we say 'fuck' in the game?
a simple word, a simple turd
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Post by joe-ilya on Oct 27, 2020 15:04:01 GMT -5
Edgy content in Western media is becoming rarer nowadays. The number one song in America is called "Wet Ass Pussy" and a Borat sequel—where a woman exposes her bleeding vagina while dancing at a debutante ball—is the highest trending film on streaming services. What world are you living in where edgy content is becoming "rarer" in western media? None of your examples are edgy, edginess would be something dark. Referencing genitals, and having some chick with a dripping period; is not dark and therefore not edgy. |
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Oct 27, 2020 20:53:32 GMT -5
So someone supporting Trump automatically means they are a liar? You're proving our point about the way the left works by using tactics from their playbook, bud. Don't argue the merits of the research, don't bother looking into the data, just attack the person who wrote the article with ad hominems and character assassinations. Sorry I actually thought my post would challenge you to look into who Brad Pascale is. Hopefully I'll remember not to bother next time. A trump supporter is someone who votes for Trump. Brad Pascale has made a career being the senior adviser for data and digital operations for Donald Trump's campaign. I don't think Brad would appreciate you reducing his accomplishments to only being a Trump supporter. If it's your job (and you're good at it) to back up everything Donald Trump says, and your position is the lead in data and digital operations, I'd bet that it would do him a lot of good to fill peoples news feeds with opinion pieces that are slanted to align exactly with what the general message of what Trump says. He has a monetary incentive to do it. He's a used car salesman. Why would he tell you about the broken muffler? There's a slant to it. It's not obvious, you fell for it. But if you care enough to know where your information is coming from you might find it's not always telling you everything you need to know to have a balanced opinion about it. Actually, you obviously know that when you posted links to "conservapedia" with no reservations about denying wikipedia's credibility for their leftist bias, but somehow delude yourself into believing that if it's right-leaning, that it's true and has no agenda to deliver you stories that are comfortable to you by being consistent with your worldview. I work in data, I know how this shit works. If you don't know what the product is that they're selling, that's because the product is you. |
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Oct 27, 2020 21:31:16 GMT -5
40ozI wasn't talking about big media corporations, who are after all part of the establishment, or even bullies. I was talking about how small people with right wing or even moderate views get banned, sometimes rightfully, but ACAB, Antifa loons with anime avatars get to stay. If they want to ban extremists, they should ban ALL political extremists, not just one side. The rules need to apply to everyone. Banning political extremism is not in the rules. They don't ban people with right wing or moderate views because of their right wing or moderate views. They ban people who harass individuals, or groups by bullying or promoting hate speech. I don't work for twitter, I don't know how the algorithms work, but a few years ago I watched the interview with Jack Dorsey cited in the articles that Bob Page linked to and they provide some insight on what the background operations at Twitter are doing and how it locates harassment on their platform, and they repeat multiple times that even while constantly being improved, their system is still far from perfect. I believe that may partially explain the bias that you're perceiving, but I also know the right has a lot of "fuck your feelings" vibes to their messages which probably has much more to do with it than a corroborated agenda to silence you guys who keep saying the same shit over and over. I don't believe you that radical left extremists are somehow immune from these rules. I met and exchanged info with about a dozen protestors when I attended black lives matter protests in philadelphia a few months ago. All but one of them don't use social media at all. The one I do know has told me a few stories about their many battles with facebook and twitter's terms of service. They once received a temporary ban on twitter for tweeting a time and location for one of the many black lives matter protests for "inciting violence" Both sides have to deal with the same challenges even when their motivations are different. It's not one sided. I'm getting really tired of reminding you that everything is not left/right. There's an enormous amount of neutral territory. It's in the interest of right leaning political commentators to make everything politicized because it makes their stupid opinions relevant. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2020 21:41:32 GMT -5
Sorry I actually thought my post would challenge you to look into who Brad Pascale is. Hopefully I'll remember not to bother next time. A trump supporter is someone who votes for Trump. Brad Pascale has made a career being the senior adviser for data and digital operations for Donald Trump's campaign. I don't think Brad would appreciate you reducing his accomplishments to only being a Trump supporter. If it's your job (and you're good at it) to back up everything Donald Trump says, and your position is the lead in data and digital operations, I'd bet that it would do him a lot of good to fill peoples news feeds with opinion pieces that are slanted to align exactly with what the general message of what Trump says. He has a monetary incentive to do it. He's a used car salesman. Why would he tell you about the broken muffler? There's a slant to it. It's not obvious, you fell for it. But if you care enough to know where your information is coming from you might find it's not always telling you everything you need to know to have a balanced opinion about it. Actually, you obviously know that when you posted links to "conservapedia" with no reservations about denying wikipedia's credibility for their leftist bias, but somehow delude yourself into believing that if it's right-leaning, that it's true and has no agenda to deliver you stories that are comfortable to you by being consistent with your worldview. Sorry, I actually thought my post would challenge you to respond to the content of a fucking article for once rather than try to discredit it based solely on who wrote it. I legitimately can't tell whether you are just trolling me or if you really are this thick-headed. Do you have even a passing interest in addressing the content of his article, or are you going to double down on your crusade to convince me not to trust Brad because of who he is? You know you can't argue the content of the article because you'll lose, so you do what all liberals do: change the subject and attack the individual. And then you have the audacity to act like I'm the one who "fell for it". I work in data, I know how this shit works. If you don't know what the product is that they're selling, that's because the product is you. Seriously, if working in data somehow means that you have a superior understanding of this topic, then perhaps you can leverage that marvelous knowledge, using specifics, to actually argue why Brad Parscale is wrong. I'll even give you some examples of how to do it because I'm a nice guy. You may lay out a case for why the Harvard study is flawed, you might offer an explanation for why the European Union fined Google billions for manipulating data, you could look for errors in the Daily Caller News Foundation report that showed that Google only fact-checks conservative news websites, or you could even tell us why Google listed "Nazism" as an official ideology of the California GOP. There you go, your work is cut out for you. |
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Oct 27, 2020 21:44:45 GMT -5
Sorry, I actually thought my post would challenge you to respond to the content of a fucking article for once rather than try to discredit it based solely on who wrote it. I legitimately can't tell whether you are just trolling me or if you really are this thick-headed. Do you have even a passing interest in addressing the content of his article, or are you going to double down on your crusade to convince me not to trust Brad because of who he is? You know you can't argue the content of the article because you'll lose, so you do what all liberals do: change the subject and attack the individual. And then you have the audacity to act like I'm the one who "fell for it". I'm not talking to Brad Parscale. I'm talking to you. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2020 21:50:45 GMT -5
I'm not talking to Brad Parscale. I'm talking to you. Correct, and what's your point exactly? You're arguing that I'm being "lied to"(your words), and I'm simply asking you to explain why, without attempting to offer up some irrelevant horseshit about who Brad is. I know who he is and where his loyalties lie. Everyone has biases. But if you can't speak to why what they say is factually incorrect, you lose. Plain and simple. |
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