All good peoples, no need to apologise, I'm only the whipcracker and I hate to see promising work go to waste. DBPs are not necessarily about the best work, or epic length maps, but just trying to finish a 4-12 minute runtime jobby in under a month's time. Participation and more importantly actually finishing a map are the main ideas here. It's just a shame when maps come in really late as there usually isn't enough time to help give a little polish on them, but we'll gladly take them!
Last Edit: Jun 26, 2019 1:45:38 GMT -5 by glenzinho
Post by doomcuredave on Jun 25, 2019 23:39:32 GMT -5
glenzinho. I looked at your map. I love the synchronized lighting effects on the stairs in the second room. Can I keep them? I haven't figured out how it works, but I assume the dummy sectors outside the map has something to do with it. I noticed some of the brightness levels are negative.
Also, in the first room, I seem to be missing 2 textures. I'm using v3.1 of the resource pack. I can't find a more current update. The textures ABTV1 & ABTV2 are missing from my resource pack. Where should it be?
doomcuredave absolutely you can keep the effects and anything else I made, the strobes are my babies that I’m most proud of and am more than happy to see them pimped out in other maps! I won’t bore you with the mechanics of them, but when you have a negative light value it still displays the 0 level, the negative value just acts as a timing point for strobing effect when using the light glows sector effect 8. As is the same for when light values are above 256, it still displays 256 but has to do with effect timing.
About your missing two textures, they’re in the latest resource pack v4 which you can find in this post
As for the rest of your map, I'm not sure what you're doing progression wise or how much you've done, but if you need some hints what I was going to do was have some hostages to rescue that will open a 666 tagged door with the Hostages Remain texture on it and a teleporter behind that to teleport to the off map area where a final battle would take place, then exit.
Last Edit: Jun 25, 2019 23:56:10 GMT -5 by glenzinho
Good to see this burst of activity! The clock is ticking but we can do it. Just remember that maps always benefit from a round of play testing and revision, so get ‘em in ASAP. I’ve set aside a good bit of time this week & weekend to work on the project, so I should be able to give pretty rapid feedback once you have something complete.
Plan your remaining mapping time accordingly. Remember, Doom itself wasn’t great because it was supremely polished (insert your favorite vanilla bug here) or epic, but because it was *fun*. Find the fun in your maps and try to bring that to the fore, even if that means skimping on length, gimmicks, cleverness, etc. The krew can help with that final bit of polish if we have a core of doomy fun to work with.
Ya, dunno what happened on the first try Anyways, here are some quick FDAs (aathv1cat is for asleeponthehelm, igsv1cat is for intergalactic stowaway and you show know what where the last goes) in PrBoom+ cl2 Cool maps as usual. 01 and 02 does a good job easing players in, and the latter has a nice introduction to the hive enemy. Of the three paths in 03 i liked the BK one the most, teleport/crusher gimmicks and all. All my deaths in the demo were from RK's chaotic welcome. Eventually killing the HK on the right provided some much needed space and cover. YK didn't feel like it had any standout concept (the crusher fight was amusing though) so its the weaker part of the map imo, but didn't drag overall impressions down. Secrets and visuals are all signature BoB. Haven't max or checked for oddities yet. Will try to find time
Title: Spacial Nursery Map: 03 Build time: 9 hours divided in 3 days Description: Map inspired upon my favorite duke 3d level, rescue all the hostages and you can exit the level! Some hostages will do a special action when you rescue them!
Have fun! I don't know if i can make some heavy fixing, but i'll try, despite the hard heat, but feedback is always encouraged!
Glad you beat the heat! I like the short and fairly gentle nature of this one. Love the X-files ref at the beginning, very in keeping with the fun, referential tone we're going for here. The hostages work sorta like bread crumbs enticing the player into one area after another, which is pretty intuitive while also giving the map a little "thing" of its own. Some nice teleport surprises, though they were occasionally slightly janky for me (one or two guys arrived a little late to the party). The FWATER hurtfloor was unexpected, maybe that would work better as orange or green goo? Although the rad suit does go a ways to warning the player, admittedly. Also the flesh pod there was a bit door-camp friendly (one of the tricky things about having a stationary PE is that it really invites that unless you work to constrain the player's movement options). But it the context of a fairly gentle map that wasn't a huge issue for me, especially since with only one it's not a huge time sink or anything.
I think the visuals could be tuned up a bit. Romero's rules aren't 100% gospel, of course, but iirc there were some flat changes without floor height changes that looked a little rough. The lighting effect with the big empty room is really cool, but until the effect happens the room itself looks a bit *too* big and empty (and threatens to feel similarly uninspired combat-wise). Maybe some crates or pillars would liven it up--and with proper shadowing these would make the light effect pop even more impressively anyway. I'm happy to do the final tweaks if you're cool with that, by the way. I basically have the weekend set aside for DBP13 stuff, and I'm feeling pretty good about most things.
You've clearly developed this a lot since the first wip, and I was pleasantly surprised at first. You have an interesting taste for big, interesting spaces that let the player run around and really get the most out of Doomguy's speed. But as the map went on a number of things started to rub me the wrong way and kept the areas from shining as much as they could have. Some fairly tough criticism incoming, but I believe you do have a voice as a mapper that's worth developing!
1) Door-camping incentives. You'll see I spent about an hour trying to crack this map, and the general story of how I almost did it was one of learning to play the map in the safest, least engaging way: mainly, by triggering encounters and then rushing to a doorway or choke point and patiently plinking away at enemies. The first big area is a case in point. In my first few tries, I had a lot of fun running around the space, dodging lots of dangerous projectiles (esp. considering the armor situation). But it became increasingly clear that my best bet for surviving was to stay behind the first big door, peek out, plink away, and duck back in. There are many similar situations you'll see in the demo, especially with the back-to-back rev traps in the blue room (more on that later). One of the things facilitates this kind of less-than-engaging combat, I think, is that outside the setpiece fights like the rev traps most monsters are already placed in the environment and alerted when a player enters an area, and escape routes are clear and easy. That second SSG area, for example, would be more dynamic with, say, imps popping up in those circular areas as you pass through them for resources, stuff activating when you pick up the SSG, maybe even having the switch open the door only temporarily so that the player's locked into the arena.
2) Big, mostly symmetrical, monotextured areas. Like I said, there's a sense of scale and geometry that you seem to gravitate towards, and which I think could ultimately serve you well as a mapper. But there are a few obstacles right now imho. Visually, these environments aren't as fun when they feel like one big texture has been stretched across them. And when stairs and different levels of elevation have the same textures and flats as everything else in the area, you're not only under-engaged visually, but you actually have some trouble moving fluidly through the space in combat because your various route options aren't particularly clear in the heat of battle. And then when you're trying to suss out progression, you can easily get disoriented when the space mostly has one texture everywhere and symmetrical designs make different areas look quite similar. The Doom community likes to separate visuals and gameplay when critiquing maps, but in practice there's often a very important relationship between the two. Visuals can make spaces fun and easy to navigate, or can confuse the player and interfere with gameplay/progression.
3) Ammo and health/amor placement. In every map, you have to figure out a somewhat idiosyncratic strategy for ammo and health that's suited to the particulars of that particular map's flow, tone, etc. Here, I never could really make sense of why health and ammo pickups were where they were, and there placement sometimes had pretty negative consequences. There's a lot of health and a fair bit of ammo in the first SSG area, and a lot of health in the rev traps that open just past the green armor. But you're never gonna get those health pickups in the rev closets until you kill all the revs. So in practice, especially once you've figured out that door-camping is your best bet for survival, you learn to trigger the rev traps, quickly exit the entire area, take a few hits, do a long and dull back-track to the SSG area for health pickups, re-enter the rev area after another long and dull back-backtrack, plink at some revs and hell knights, take a few more hits eventually, more backtracking and back-backtracking. It's frankly deadening, and once you're done you're rewarded with more health than you can possibly use, but which you would have killed for just a few minutes earlier. As you suspected, the ammo situation is way inadequate for the end as well, although I made it a fair ways past the blue key door with some careful, dull resource-gathering trips.
4) Those revenant traps. The back-to-back revenant-heavy traps near the green armor and rocket launcher were just infuriating. Most of my deaths came from getting caught on a railing and dying to a rev homing rocket that I had no way of avoiding. One of these traps would be questionable enough, but two back-to-back in the same area with similar compositions of enemies that aren't very well suited to the area to begin with... well... it really starts to wear you down.
Ok, you get the idea. I'd encourage you to watch the demo to see where this is coming from. In my opinion, there's a lot of this map that is salvageable, but it'll take some work. If you're cool with it, I'd be happy to take a pass at it this weekend and see if I can get it in what I would consider release-worthy shape while still retaining what I *do* see as the cool core vision that's fighting to come out. Imho that seems like the best plan given the looming deadline and the time I've set aside to work on the project this weekend. Let me know! This may be a bit harsh as feedback, but I wouldn't write all these words if I didn't think your mapping had value for this community!
Post by doomcuredave on Jun 27, 2019 19:02:33 GMT -5
bigolbilly. I haven't had time to watch your demo yet. But I will. Maybe a little feedback from me on the points you mentioned will help you to understand my mapping a little better.
1. Door-camping. I was rather proud of that first big area. Multiple lines of sight, lots of interconnected places to go. Also, some repetition in shapes, but, I hoped, not too repedative because I organized them in threes. Yes, I can see where door camping would be a problem with my maps. I've watched a lot of doom players on twitch. Many do not like lock in fights. Which is one reason why I don't really have them. Also, I thought it would be difficult to create a lock-in fight without scripting. I've seen a mapper named bridgeburner use scripting to do that on twitch. Your idea of the door closing behind the player, but unable to open it is interesting. I hadn't thought of it.
I don't know how to do that. It seems to me with monsters in particular, they would have to be awakened early (by sound) with the same sector number trick, then have them teleport in. I found out while mapping on the previous project that when they are awake but not released, you can hear them moaning, giving away the trap.
2. Yeah, I always have trouble trying to decide what textures to use and how to transition to a new one. I tried some transitioning past the blue door by trying to go from brown to brown with grey to grey textures. I also have difficulty deciding what flats to use and again how to transition to a new one. In some areas, I tried textures with a pattern on them to try and keep them more interesting. Also, I'm not very good at detailing. That ties in with using the same texture on a long wall.
I never could really make sense of why health and ammo pickups were where they were
That's because as i playtest a part of the map I place amo and health when I start to run out. I'm not that great at playing doom, so I figure if I can either beat it or come close, other lesser players might be able to.
4. I use revenants a lot because they aren't too powerful, but are more so than imps and hell knights. I always have trouble dodging their homing rockets. I couldn't playtest the area with the blue key, but I hoped some of the revanants across the room could be taken out with rockets first, then some of the closer ones with ssg. It's also possible that I added a few too many monsters in some of my traps. I put health after a fight so the player can recover. Sometimes, when I play a map I might beat a certain fight, but have no health or amo left for the next encounter. I think I have lost count of the number of times I've had, say, 1 hp left and nothing to deal with the next encounter.
Go ahead and work on my map. I'd like to see what you do with it. I am definitely eager to learn to become a better mapper. Thanks for your feedback.
Cool dave, thanks for being open and interested in improving. A few quick points:
1) I actually share some of your antipathy towards explicit lock-in fights, tbh. I like the ideal of a map as a kind of unpredictable organic whole, rather than a series of discrete, highly choreographed “encounters” (though I recognize that there’s an audience for that and legitimate skill in doing it well). But these are really two extreme ends of a wide spectrum. There are ways to mitigate door camping without, say, just throwing up some bars in front of the door the player just went through—teleports, dropping the player into an area, taking a lift up into an area, using damaging floors to keep the player from staying in a certain safe places, flooding camp-able areas with threatening monsters, pulling the player forward with desirable items (the SSG in your map does this to an extent, and especially helped push me forward on my initial plays). And so on. In some of my recent maps I’ve kinda done “soft lock-ins,” where I put the player in an area where the way out isn’t immediately obvious or proximate. There’s a switch that opens the door out, for example, but it’s on the other side of the room and monsters are bearing down on you—and you don’t know for sure whether that switch is gonna release even more monsters. I wouldn’t claim to be the master, though. Generally I find that it’s a valuable exercise to play a good map and analyze the (usually) many creative ways the mapper pushes you forward and manipulates you (in a sense) into navigating the space in a fun, engaging, and dynamic way. Since you do have a knack for creating complex and interesting large areas, dave—I think you are justified in feeling proud of all the lines of sight, navigation possibilities, etc. in your SSG area, for example—developing your ability to incentivize players to get the most out your spaces might be a good next step to focus on.
2) There’s an interesting debate that pops up from time to time about whether mappers should make maps they can’t beat themselves. I don’t have a strong position on the matter, myself, but I think it is important to get a sense of the total flow of the map in one way or another, especially when it comes to health, armor, and ammo. I wouldn’t say you absolutely need to start only making maps you can beat, but there might at least be some strategies you could try out to get a better sense of how to handle resources across a whole map. You could playtest in Buddha mode (attacks damage you but health can’t go below 1HP and actually kill you) if you use GZDoom. Or design a map that you can beat as HMP difficulty and then make a UV version from that base.
3) I actually love revs, too. But remember a big part of Doom is the relationship between space and enemies. Like pickups, every map handles this in a slightly different way, but the most basic bottom line is that enemies should encourage you to move through the space in a fun and enjoyable way (admittedly there are lots of ways that people get fun and enjoyment out of playing). Pretty much every monster can be used in both a trivial and a blatantly unfair way, depending on the environment you make around them. Like with the pickup situation above, I think it would serve you well to break out of theorizing how your fights will work against skilled players and really get a feel for how your maps do this space/monsters relationship. Again, initially designing for a lower skill level might be one strategy. I sometimes “roleplay playtest” where I watch a little bit of someone playing and try to play through my own wip map in that person’s gameplay style, just to get a feel for how different players could approach things.Of course there are plenty of godlike players but the average-or-below ones have actually been the most useful for me, especially since they’re easier to role play as. (Historically Major Arlene’s videos have been great for me, she’s a low-skill player in a good way imho.) Cheats, resurrecting yourself, and other things can also be useful for role playing as a high-skill player. Even better than role playing, though, is of course carefully watching actual other people play your maps, noting what engages them. A demo generally tells you more than the most detailed written critique imho.
Hope this helps, will start working on your map soon, and I’ll try to keep you in the loop!
Last Edit: Jun 28, 2019 0:53:13 GMT -5 by bigolbilly
Seems like many changes are coming, so will wait for the next versions of Walter's and Dave's map before recording more Btw the Billy maps have some cool looking sector spacecrafts and all end with you blowing them up. There's the hostage rescue theme already but the other author having explosive vessels of their own would be cool imo, as a cute signature at least
Is it possible to stop GZDB from filling missing textures? I want to have like a tiny layer floating in space but it keeps doing this. A bit distracting. Loving the resource set btw. Perhaps the only change I find hard to accept is the new SSG. It just feels bulky to me. But maybe it's actually interesting that the SSG looks uncool since it can motivate people to use other weapons, heh.