40oz
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Post by 40oz on Oct 16, 2023 10:59:44 GMT -5
Last time i went grocery shopping I bought cage-free / freerange eggs to try it out. I still had eggs at home but they were just the regular non-ethical kind. When I got home I read the backs of the cartons and they are both branches under the same parent company. That means they have two groups of chickens, one group where they treat the chickens ethically, and another that they treat like shit. Then they charge extra for the ethically treated ones! Your money still goes to the same place!
Sometimes you vote with your wallet and sometimes you fucken don't.
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BIG DICK NIGGA
this post is a lie about my bodily proportions
Major Arlene obsessed, 100% verified freakazoid. AKA bzzrak
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Post by BIG DICK NIGGA on Oct 16, 2023 11:03:51 GMT -5
What's your point? Your money still "votes" for cruelty free egg farming. And it's more expensive because it's more expensive to the manufacturer as well.
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Oct 16, 2023 12:10:22 GMT -5
What do you mean you don't understand?
Let's up the stakes, let's say the organization that collects funds to investigate and break up human sex trafficking rings also runs a human trafficking ring itself...? Can you delude yourself into believing that when you are contributing to that, you're helping to eliminate the problem?
The business runs both operations. There's no ethical consumption under capitalism if a business is both the problem and the solution to the problem it is creating.
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BIG DICK NIGGA
this post is a lie about my bodily proportions
Major Arlene obsessed, 100% verified freakazoid. AKA bzzrak
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Post by BIG DICK NIGGA on Oct 16, 2023 12:23:14 GMT -5
I literally don't see what's wrong with that. The business is not the "problem" if you think there is one, the consumers are. It's them who fund the operation. The business will produce "ethical" eggs only if there's consumer demand, which you create by buying them. If there isn't demand it won't bother, why would it. The purpose of a business, its ONLY purpose, is to make its owners money. It by definition doesn't care about what's ethical and what isn't, its ethics are shaped by consumer demand. AND THAT'S GOOD. Also There's no ethical consumption under capitalism
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Post by wernergoldberg on Oct 16, 2023 12:46:36 GMT -5
drip
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40oz
diRTbAg
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Post by 40oz on Oct 16, 2023 12:54:12 GMT -5
I literally don't see what's wrong with that. For the record, this is referring to the human sex trafficking, right? We're not just glossing over the points that would make us look bad. The business will produce "ethical" eggs only if there's consumer demand, No, they don't do it to satisfy demand, because having the choice between ethical eggs and non ethical eggs is not the demand. The demand is that unethical treatment of animals should not be allowed. If they're controlling both, our purchases cannot resolve that problem because the consumer cannot control how the business chooses which operation to fund. They had to produce the ethical eggs for people to be able to buy them at all. Whatever overhead it costs them to do this is passed on to the consumer as a penalty. Furthermore, anyone who is financially struggling is forced into the unethical choice, which only makes the process of buying eggs at all feel shitty. What is your interpretation of 'voting with your wallet?' anyway? The implication I get is that if a business is conducting operations you don't agree with, you're supposed to support the competition so that the former business cannot succeed with what it's doing. If you want mistreatment of animals to stop, you can't do this when the business that produces the eggs is doing BOTH operations, If you need eggs but still want the business to fail so a competing business can fill its demands, you have to buy the cheaper eggs so that you give them less money, bringing them closer to failure than you would by buying the ethical ones. If they're still able to mistreat their animals for a lower costs and continue to sell their product, this operation will never go away because it subsists on those in poverty that aren't able to make the more ethical choice.
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BIG DICK NIGGA
this post is a lie about my bodily proportions
Major Arlene obsessed, 100% verified freakazoid. AKA bzzrak
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Post by BIG DICK NIGGA on Oct 16, 2023 13:22:20 GMT -5
The demand is that unethical treatment of animals should not be allowed. But it is allowed, because it's not illegal. That's all a business should be concerned with. The legislation IS the ethical code, and this ethical code doesn't prohibit cage farming (but it does prohibit sex trafficking, which is why legal businesses generally don't engage in it). If you don't like this, you should support some movement that campaigns for this, or I don't know. If cage farming was made illegal by a government, businesses would stop doing it the following day. Furthermore, anyone who is financially struggling is forced into the unethical choice, which only makes the process of buying eggs at all feel shitty. Why should anyone give a shit? If you can't afford it or don't like it, don't buy it, end of story. Why should anyone provide you with cruelty free eggs if you can't compensate the expenses needed to produce them? Because you deserve it somehow? Because you're somehow entitled to other people's labour? If you feel shitty buying cheap eggs, make more money. Or don't, nobody gives a shit really. What is your interpretation of 'voting with your wallet?' anyway? Well following our example: people buy more Ethical Eggs -> proportion of Ethical Eggs in total sales of eggs increases -> production of Ethical Eggs increases -> feedback loop. Alternatively people DON'T buy Ethical eggs -> it becomes unprofitable -> production is terminated because nobody likes Ethical Eggs. And that's the only reason anyone would make Ethical Eggs -- because there are people willing to buy them. The analogy is very clear when you look at iPhones for example: the Pro models sold well so they're still made, the Mini models didn't so they aren't. The implication I get is that if a business is conducting operations you don't agree with, you're supposed to support the competition so that the former business cannot succeed with what it's doing. Yes but in this case the "competition" is just another operation of the same business, that you like or agree with. It works the same as if it was another company. operation will never go away because it subsists on those in poverty that aren't able to make the more ethical choice. Of course they are, nobody is forced at gunpoint to buy eggs.
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40oz
diRTbAg
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Post by 40oz on Oct 16, 2023 13:52:50 GMT -5
The demand is that unethical treatment of animals should not be allowed. But it is allowed, because it's not illegal. That's all a business should be concerned with. The legislation IS the ethical code, and this ethical code doesn't prohibit cage farming (but it does prohibit sex trafficking, which is why legal businesses generally don't engage in it). If you don't like this, you should support some movement that campaigns for this, or I don't know. If cage farming was made illegal by a government, businesses would stop doing it the following day. You're repeating my point back to me in the form of a rebuttal. You don't vote with your wallet in this case. Does that address the misunderstanding yet? Furthermore, anyone who is financially struggling is forced into the unethical choice, which only makes the process of buying eggs at all feel shitty. Why should anyone give a shit? If you can't afford it or don't like it, don't buy it, end of story. Why should anyone provide you with cruelty free eggs if you can't compensate the expenses needed to produce them? Because you deserve it somehow? Because you're somehow entitled to other people's labour? If you feel shitty buying cheap eggs, make more money. Or don't, nobody gives a shit really. This is an absurd question, framing the cruelty that animals experience in factory farming, and the elimination of which as a right the human consumer deserves. You couldn't possibly be more off the mark What is your interpretation of 'voting with your wallet?' anyway? Well following our example: people buy more Ethical Eggs -> proportion of Ethical Eggs in total sales of eggs increases -> production of Ethical Eggs increases -> feedback loop. Alternatively people DON'T buy Ethical eggs -> it becomes unprofitable -> production is terminated because nobody likes Ethical Eggs. And that's the only reason anyone would make Ethical Eggs -- because there are people willing to buy them. The analogy is very clear when you look at iPhones for example: the Pro models sold well so they're still made, the Mini models didn't so they aren't. Yes, up until you understand that no one needs to eat an iPhone to live. Eggs are a very low cost per calorie food option, and is often used as ingredients for many different products. If you're open to considering that eggs are one of millions of different food choices, many of which have unethical practices to produce, no one person, or even groups of people, especially those in lower income brackets, can succeed at hunger striking these extraordinary problems away before they malnutrition themselves to death. The implication I get is that if a business is conducting operations you don't agree with, you're supposed to support the competition so that the former business cannot succeed with what it's doing. Yes but in this case the "competition" is just another operation of the same business, that you like or agree with. It works the same as if it was another company. How is that the same? The business won't cut the operations that produce less overhead if its being funded by the operations that cost more. They will just always do both. operation will never go away because it subsists on those in poverty that aren't able to make the more ethical choice. Of course they are, nobody is forced at gunpoint to buy eggs. Well, as addressed earlier, the less money you make, the fewer choices you have. Starvation does kill people like bleeding out a gun wound does, and the operation subsists on people not being able to make the more expensive choices. So until everyone stops being poor, which can't happen, it will always continue.
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StodgyAyatollah
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Post by StodgyAyatollah on Oct 16, 2023 14:42:33 GMT -5
Last time i went grocery shopping I bought cage-free / freerange eggs to try it out. I still had eggs at home but they were just the regular non-ethical kind. The business runs both operations. There's no ethical consumption under capitalism if a business is both the problem and the solution to the problem it is creating. Doesn't seem to be a problem with capitalism to me. The fact that "ethical" free range eggs weren't even a thing you could buy in chain stores until fairly recent speaks volumes. Trends are how society works, not massive instant changes. If you look at it as anything other than an idealist you'd have a different view. Also, there would be no concern for ethics under most/all other systems. The real answer to your conundrum though is to grow your own food. That is the true moral option.
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Gokuma
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Post by Gokuma on Oct 16, 2023 15:41:11 GMT -5
I got your uncaged huevos right here, señor! Honk Honk! *obscene gesture*
Just kidding. When I do buy eggs from a supermarket it's usually cage-free from a brand that doesn't sell anything else. But I also get local eggs.
That said, the law has an awful loophole (of course) that they just have to briefly set the chicken down on the ground and it counts as cage-free. There's lots of frauds out there and I don't shop at Whole Foods.
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nnnvork
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Post by nnnvork on Oct 16, 2023 17:16:34 GMT -5
People who map "problematic" aspects of any-and-every configuration-and-permutation of society to the buzzword "capitalism", whatever the fuck that word even means, should not be taken seriously.
But anyways, on the meat industry: People should know what they eat. If you don't respect what you eat, why should anything greater than you respect you in return. Factory farming is cheap but existentially harrowing; and the upcoming lab-grown meat comes with its own pandora's box. I can see a future where there's a few different lanes of animal products that people consume depending on their needs, finances, and values.
Side note: I respect the Amish more and more every year. It's like they're taking one for the team by shrugging off technology the way that they do.
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dn
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the motherfucking darknation
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Post by dn on Oct 16, 2023 17:59:10 GMT -5
That said, the law has an awful loophole (of course) that they just have to briefly set the chicken down on the ground and it counts as cage-free. There's lots of frauds out there and I don't shop at Whole Foods. This. Sorry townies, but the whole thing is a fucking fraud. The average chicken that you see on the shelf? It's less than 12 weeks old: they pump them so full of food and chemicals and shit that their underdeveloped legs cannot support their own weight, they couldn't go outside even if they wanted to. Plus, for the first 11 weeks of their life they are susceptible to cold: the company can keep free-range birds in the shed up until this point for their own welfare. By which point, the motherfuckers are so fat that they can't walk anyway. For week twelve, simply leaving the door to the shed unlocked counts as free-range. They ain't going anywhere. If I cared, then I'd just stop buying chicken altogether. It tastes of fuck-all anyway, and eggs are fucking disgusting balls of snot / hard-boiled rubber (delete as applicable). Eat a fucking duck instead, because humanity hasn't fucked that particular species into genetic abomination yet.
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skyr
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Post by skyr on Oct 16, 2023 18:10:33 GMT -5
The real answer to your conundrum though is to grow your own food. That is the true moral option. This is the way. Keeping chickens is awesome. Lil' mini dinosaurs, Pok POK! And the great thing about keeping chickens is that you can organize cock fights and make a shit ton of money with being a bookie. And the fights are insane, deep down they know they came from the t-rex. Blood and feathers everywhere, brutaLlly being slaughtered by your own brethren what an hell it must be for them. Wait, what was that about the true mortal choice? because humanity hasn't fucked that particular species into genetic abomination yet. Because they already did fucked themselves in genetic abomination with their corkscrew dicks
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Gokuma
You're trying to say you like DOS better than me, right?
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Post by Gokuma on Oct 16, 2023 19:44:37 GMT -5
Some call 'em porkswords.
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StodgyAyatollah
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I'm not here. You're just imagining things.
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Post by StodgyAyatollah on Oct 16, 2023 21:02:02 GMT -5
I'll be the one guy to defend factory farming, sort of. As long as there are densely populated urban areas then the alternative is food shortages and starvation. There is no healthy local agricultural system that would really be able to support how people choose to live today. Getting out of cities and looking towards local agriculture is the more practical solution, short of growing your own food. It's the kind of thing that can only really happen with a cultural shift among a whole lot of people that probably won't make that change.
I've personally worked at an egg ranch for a short while when I was young and saying it was gruesome doesn't do it justice. Have plenty of horror stories from my short time doing that. The free range thing is mostly a scam though. From everything I've seen the conditions are pretty comparable.
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Post by wernergoldberg on Oct 17, 2023 4:20:52 GMT -5
the industrial revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race
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CittyKat112
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Post by CittyKat112 on Oct 18, 2023 5:05:12 GMT -5
I hope this was a joke because I find Unabomber's ideas cringe. If anyone disagrees, I urge you to throw away all your electronic devices and wipe your ass with rocks and leaves.
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SilverMiner
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Post by SilverMiner on Oct 18, 2023 5:43:20 GMT -5
Last time i went grocery shopping I bought cage-free / freerange eggs to try it out. I still had eggs at home but they were just the regular non-ethical kind. When I got home I read the backs of the cartons and they are both branches under the same parent company. That means they have two groups of chickens, one group where they treat the chickens ethically, and another that they treat like shit. Then they charge extra for the ethically treated ones! Your money still goes to the same place! Sometimes you vote with your wallet and sometimes you fucken don't. In my country, there's a net of supermarkets where one can find 2 differently looking popcorns (put on the same shelf) coming with 1:2 difference in price, but inside, the cushions with corn (or how it's called, i dunno) are identically the same. Also I remember there was the same story with some Chinese/Japan boat engines, they just get sold with different names
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Post by wernergoldberg on Oct 18, 2023 8:37:54 GMT -5
I hope this was a joke because I find Unabomber's ideas cringe. If anyone disagrees, I urge you to throw away all your electronic devices and wipe your ass with rocks and leaves. i haven't actually read his book but other reactionary stuff, i kinda agree, won't ever make the change probably (it isn't about personal salvation really) but you never know. i'm avoiding most consoomer shit anyway
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dn
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the motherfucking darknation
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Post by dn on Oct 18, 2023 8:53:46 GMT -5
I hope this was a joke because I find Unabomber's ideas cringe. If anyone disagrees, I urge you to throw away all your electronic devices and wipe your ass with rocks and leaves. The Unabomber's manifesto is not huge on practical solutions, but godmotherfuckingdamn, if anyone in the 20th century has the right to say "I told you so" it would be uncle Ted.
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CittyKat112
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Kitty cat one hundred and twelve
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Post by CittyKat112 on Oct 18, 2023 8:56:07 GMT -5
I hope this was a joke because I find Unabomber's ideas cringe. If anyone disagrees, I urge you to throw away all your electronic devices and wipe your ass with rocks and leaves. i haven't actually read his book but other reactionary stuff, i kinda agree, won't ever make the change probably (it isn't about personal salvation really) but you never know. i'm avoiding most consoomer shit anyway I never read his manifesto too, though I did download it a long while ago but never really cared enough to read it. I think his ideas are trash because it's basically an unachievable utopia... Also because people who support his ideas spend A LOT of their time on the internet... Every time I see somebody who praises Unabomber I think to myself 'wtf dude, practice what you preach and go live in a shack you ph@gg0t'.
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CittyKat112
Doomer
Kitty cat one hundred and twelve
Posts: 640
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Post by CittyKat112 on Oct 18, 2023 9:00:36 GMT -5
I hope this was a joke because I find Unabomber's ideas cringe. If anyone disagrees, I urge you to throw away all your electronic devices and wipe your ass with rocks and leaves. The Unabomber's manifesto is not huge on practical solutions, but godmotherfuckingdamn, if anyone in the 20th century has the right to say "I told you so" it would be uncle Ted. Hmmm, I remember he made some BASED points on the first few pages but I always associated his manifesto with 'technology bad' narrative because I was too lazy and retarded to read it.
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Gokuma
You're trying to say you like DOS better than me, right?
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Post by Gokuma on Oct 18, 2023 19:18:33 GMT -5
The biggest problem is that the elites who promoted unchecked growth for their own greed, then spent decades of effort dumbing people down and feeding them toxins, are now trying to cull the herds. I think they should go cull themselves. They truly are the real vermin who foolishly have shat all over where they eat. So about chickens, roosters are funny. Besides the cock-a-doodle do, they make a threatening or warning roar sometimes and it's hilarious to hear. They can mess you up though. In recent months some old guy bled to death from a rooster attack. Taking care of some chickens, the hens started to get stubborn when it was time to corral them all back in the coop. So I started to lift and push them a little to get them going and the rooster (who apparently murdered possibly three other roosters while growing up) got mad and charged at me. I just yelled at him and raised my big steel toe boot in front of him and he stopped. Animals sense fear and you gotta show them who's boss sometimes. While hawks generally prey on chickens some badass roosters will mess them up or kill them (and some less badass ones have to be saved). Roosters and hens will sacrifice themselves to save others or their chicks. Even bigger meaner hens have messed up hawks but roosters are better equipped. A badass hen will catch and gobble down a whole mouse! Bet you didn't know those were on the menu for them. Check out this hawk just pinning a hawk down while a hen gets some revenge pecks, probably at the eyes. Lots of vids. Saw one where a bunch of chickens gang up on a hawk and chase it all around kicking the crap out of it.
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kvsari
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Post by kvsari on Oct 18, 2023 22:56:02 GMT -5
Used to have chickens. Loved them. They're so funny. Clucking and pecking about, scratching the ground and walking around in their head bobble way. Then my mom asked me to kill one for dinner. One of my traumas.
I'd love to get some chickens again. They're so cool.
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