40oz
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Post by 40oz on Mar 5, 2022 13:28:56 GMT -5
Fellow russian doomers, I'd like to know a little bit about how certain kinds of speech is off-limits in Russia.
without simply posting examples that can actually get you in serious trouble, what are the kinds of things that you can say or do either on the internet or in the physical presence of other people that you could be charged for?
In your perspective, what is the government's motivations for these rules/laws/mandates?
Are you, at times, prompted to say things you dont believe in, or having to bite your tongue not to say things you do believe in? Do you have a story that could fill me in on something related to speech that got you or someone you know in trouble?
Would it help for me to describe what we call the 'first amendment rights' in the United States to give a point in which to base your response from?
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Post by dr_st on Mar 5, 2022 14:54:26 GMT -5
I do not live in Russia, so I will not answer this question, even though I could probably look things up.
Might I borrow one of your moves and ask: Why are you asking? Do you genuinely want to know? Is it mere curiosity? Is there some person who you want to help? Do you just want to use this information to pretend that "off-limits speech" is a problem in Russia only, and does not exist, for example, in the United States?
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Post by joe-ilya on Mar 5, 2022 14:56:14 GMT -5
Today Russia banned Facebook and Twitter from being accessible due to 'discrimination towards Russian media', I think that should tell you the government's motivations are on par with north Korea's dictator.
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mayhemicdestrvctor
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Post by mayhemicdestrvctor on Mar 5, 2022 15:47:23 GMT -5
putin is so stupid
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2022 18:36:50 GMT -5
Today Russia banned Facebook and Twitter from being accessible due to 'discrimination towards Russian media', I think that should tell you the government's motivations are on par with north Korea's dictator. That really is concerning, although unsurprising, unfortunately.
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Mar 5, 2022 19:31:02 GMT -5
Why are you asking? Do you genuinely want to know? Is it mere curiosity? Is there some person who you want to help? Do you just want to use this information to pretend that "off-limits speech" is a problem in Russia only, and does not exist, for example, in the United States? The Russia/Ukrainian conflict has been on my mind a lot and I've been reading stuff about it that was timestamped before the invasion happened and comparing it to current news and events. I heard from xenophobia against Russians in the donbas region is a factor driving the conflict, and one source mentioned in passing that outsiders who see Russians as ordinary white people really aren't aware of their history and if they did they might see them as a marginalized group, which I suppose is true for me. I really don't know. I've seen a similar sentiment expressed by @vigilantdoomer in another thread, and it's difficult for me to see the connection he has expressed between me and the actions of the west that have caused him so much pain. mrthejoshmon, from the UK, once told a story about he was with some friends in a public park and one of his friends called the other a 'fag,' and a police officer heard it and issued a ticket 'for his homophobia.' This was really strange for me. In the US, we really don't have much in the way of off-limits speech. You can pretty much say anything without consequences by the police or government. If you were to threaten to kill a person, in speech or writing and then also do it, your murder charge is often greater than if you were to just kill someone on a whim because it was pre-meditated. So you can't really say that if you intend to actually do it. But all forms of hate speech against anyone, marginalized groups et all is technically allowed to be said out loud, in writing, even in the news, without risk of being fined, or imprisoned. It only becomes a problem if people can reasonably assume that violent action will follow it. It's rare, because people often have the common decency not to do it, but it does happen from time to time, such as with the (CW: homophobia) Westboro Baptist ChurchOn the other hand, news sources such as Russia Today (RT) and Sputnik are now labeled "Russian-state controlled media" on facebook and twitter. They stopped coming into my news feeds for a while, and only now started popping up after I searched for them. Facebook said I was actively following them. I thought their coverage of the United States intervention in Syria was pretty good at the time Trump was firing missiles on them. Better than US news media IMO. That could be considered censorship to an extent but social media companies are private enterprises and are not bound by the law to do it or not do it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2022 19:32:56 GMT -5
I can't comment on Russian censorship but as an American the building Russophobia in my own country is alarming to me. We have politicians calling for us to deport Russians in our country, and apparently now we're calling the mixed drink involving vodka, khalua, and cream "White Freedoms." It's every single xenophobic Greatest Hit from our sordid history put together in a single retarded compilation album. This shit's going to stick around for decades, too, and virtually all of it will be directed at completely innocent people.
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mayhemicdestrvctor
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Post by mayhemicdestrvctor on Mar 6, 2022 1:32:10 GMT -5
most people in russia also hate putin but the old people in russia are falling for what putin says on the news there , but the other russians i met also really hate putin and they also hate russia and 2 days ago we were eating a chicken at a chicken stand and the guy who sold them was russian and i didnt get angry because he is russian
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Post by dr_st on Mar 6, 2022 1:43:25 GMT -5
I heard from xenophobia against Russians in the donbas region is a factor driving the conflict It's not so much xenophobia against Russians (something that is quite hard to find in most parts of Ukraine, because of how mixed the populations are). The conflict is between the Ukrainian state and national army and the Russian separatists of the Donbass/Luhansk area. Both sides accuse the other of atrocities. I don't know enough to have a position on this, but such conflicts are not uncommon, unfortunately. one source mentioned in passing that outsiders who see Russians as ordinary white people really aren't aware of their history and if they did they might see them as a marginalized group, which I suppose is true for me. Indeed. The dumb idea that if you are white you cannot be "marginalized" anywhere is something that mostly comes from the US, because of its history, and the fact that most Americans have very little knowledge of what happens outside of the US. Of course the definition of "white" also has some fluidity to it, depending on which allegedly "victimized" group the progressives want to focus on in any given situation. In the US, we really don't have much in the way of off-limits speech. You can pretty much say anything without consequences by the police or government. Again - correct. In the US, unlike in Russia (and in recent years, the UK), saying "wrong" things will not get you in trouble with the state authorities. This is very important, and to this extent the freedom of speech principle still holds. There are other (smaller) trouble you can find yourself in, such as losing your job or being "deplatformed" from the social media. This is not as bad, of course, but still unsatisfactory, if your standard is a liberal democracy, and not Russia. That could be considered censorship to an extent but social media companies are private enterprises and are not bound by the law to do it or not do it. The social media tycoons like to claim they hold no responsibility over the content on their platforms, and simultaneously police them any way they see fit. Indeed, the law grants them this behavior. In my opinion, the law should be changed so that they cannot do that. Certainly, when it comes to the de-facto monopolies (Facebook, Twitter). Deplatforming someone from there is effectively silencing them. Hence, I would prefer a situation where these platforms are not allowed to be more restrictive than the freedom of speech laws of the corresponding jurisdiction.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2022 10:09:42 GMT -5
- Well, Russia just blocked ALL independent media (which already were designated "foreign agents"), and it is rumored that the decision was already made on first day of war (just implemented later), i.e. was not for an apparent reason, but was already intended to block all media - Russia can designate both organizations and also specific people as "foreign agents", they are required to prefix all their messages and speech with declaration of their "foreign agents" status. It has been these way for years already. You can become "a foreing agent" if you perform relevant activity (being media, or otherwise very known person) and someone sends you money from abroad, even if they are a setup - Russia has, for years, law to store all personal data (which, thanks to corrupt, was source of Bellingcat intel on governments killer actions against people, including with forbidden chemical agents), and is now discussed to grant permanent access to this personal data (including political views and sex practices) even without a court order - recently, big fines and also criminal penalty for well over a decade for those against war, or advocating for sanctions, or whatever has passed - protests are broken down with physical force. Currently there is no lawful way to express anti-war stance - currenty, you are not allowed to call it "war" or "invasion", it's rather a "special operation". Independent media (aka foreign agents) received this instruction, and the instruction to use only offical Russian state data on war, or get blocked - on February, 24th (they all got blocked anyway). - Russia has laws against "offending someone else's religious beliefs", and against "insulting power officials", although specifically federal power officials. Insulting Putin is guaranteed criminal offense. - A person who tweeted about anti-war protest was arrested (despite deleting tweet two hours later) with screenshot of the tweet made by the one who registered it stating that tweet was posted less than a minute ago. It is probable there are automated monitoring programs - Russia discussed rolling out national certificates for internet so it can monitor all https traffic - being extremist is a crime, and being extremist is broadly defined. Only a few years ago one part of anti-extremism legal code was softened to make first offense not a crime, but a civil violation instead (repeat offense is still a crime) - retweeting/reposting things can and most often will result in charges - Dmitry Bogatov was arrested, eventually released with status changed to witness and fled the country to US, for someone using his Tor exit node to call people on a rally and bring stuff that burns, or maybe some explosives as well, (terrorist charges). This was the case that made the grim perspective of living in Russia being apparent to me, as Dmitry Bogatov was a Debian contributor, and I monitored Debian news daily. - Students participating in anti-war protests are getting expelled, and teachers are fired. Universities warn students against rallies beforehand - There is a trial on student's organization DOXA which probably has some coverage abroad. They are currently blocked and use telegram channel and send e-mails to circumvent it and continue to organize anti-war events - VPNs are being blocked, although in practice no one arrested me for using Tor and VPNs (despite being easily detectable) - Since the last December (2021), the only way to connect to Tor is through obfuscating bridges or other obfuscating techniques, connection using public bridges is impossible, bridges bundled with Tor Browser releases are blocked - Last year, Russia passed law that restricts education and scientific community from stating things that are not an "official Russia scientific position" or whatever. I didn't research much into it, but it certainly unsettle LGBTQ+ community I was doing volunteer stuff in, as over fears that now you can't teach others what disagrees with Russian state line on stuff like, say, transgenderism - Russia has laws against propaganda of LGBTQ+, specifically you are not allowed to let anyone under 18 know about LGBTQ+ or participate in any LGBTQ+ events (probably a crime, I don't remember exactly how it is implemented, but it has to do with age, 18+ and you're safe) - there was intended to be a list of Russia considers to be "traditional values" - ... the list goes on and on
I don't have a social network account thanks to that, because it is hard to know when something you write offends someone.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2022 10:18:22 GMT -5
Also, criminal charges (on extremism) on retweets/reposts were quite common in the past, which is why it was partially decriminalized a few years ago. Also, being detained and charged civilly for participating in protest multiple times in a specific timeframe is grounds for criminal charges and prison time. It has become colloqially known as Dadin's chapter after this: www.rferl.org/a/ildar-dadin-constitutional-court-criminal-code-amended/28301911.htmlThat was the first person, but more people followed. European Court of Civil Rights criticised Russian government for defining "extremism" too broadly. In practice, extremism and terrorism charges are used primarly to squash dissent. Evidence can be planted or "extorted" under torture (false confession, Chinese style), the cases of tortures are almost never confirmed by the state unless the arrested person died as a result, and courts give priority to confessions obtained post-detainment (when person could be tortured) over defendant's statement in court _always_.
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mayhemicdestrvctor
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I Liked Earache Better When Dig Answered The Phone
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Post by mayhemicdestrvctor on Mar 6, 2022 10:43:37 GMT -5
that sucks , i extremely fucking hate putin
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