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Post by Doomguy 2000 on Sept 24, 2020 16:12:24 GMT -5
Looks like a more up to date version of Brutal Doom to me. Is this game worth it or should I pass on it?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2020 2:55:43 GMT -5
I dunno, best scope out the early access reviews and take a gander at footage to find out if you should.
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Sept 25, 2020 6:51:12 GMT -5
I kinda wish sgtmiv just went to this immediately instead of dominating the gameplay mod landscape for nearly a half dozen years
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2020 14:03:58 GMT -5
I kinda wish sgtmiv just went to this immediately instead of dominating the gameplay mod landscape for nearly a half dozen years You make it sound like he was a tyrant who held the gameplay mod landscape with an iron fist. Not at all what happened though. He wasn't somehow suppressing other modders. Everyone else was able to make mods at that time, so someone could have come along and made a mod that people liked better, but no one did. What Sergeant Mark made was what many people wanted, and that's why he rose to popularity. The insinuation of your post is that you kinda wish Mark's mod hadn't been around at all so that other mods that you prefer more would have risen in popularity due to the absence of Brutal Doom. You just need to acknowledge that a lot of people enjoyed what Mark made, whether you and I like it or not.
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Sept 25, 2020 19:31:21 GMT -5
Why are you starting an argument about some fantasy about what you think I think? I didn't say any of those points you're disputing. You and I both know none of those things happened and I didn't and am not saying any of those things did.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2020 21:02:40 GMT -5
Um, how else would someone interpret a person saying he wished Sergeant Mark hadn't dominated the gameplay mod landscape for 6 years? Maybe I missed something.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2020 21:06:06 GMT -5
40oz, I guess the reaction came because your previous seemed to imply that "Sergeant Mark IV dominating gameplay mod landscape" was a bad thing that would have been averted by him doing his stuff elsewhere, I read this way it initially as well. Now I see you may have actually wished he shot straight for his goal of making a standalone game, as it is higher achievement - that is, you wished him well. As to "why" people may read your posts that way, for me personally it is because you expressed negative attitude towards rabbit cutscene, and other things like lambasting high damaging floors because mappers need to handhold players to avoid grieving them, etc. The expectation is that you consider mappers to be highly responsible for inclusion of any content in their games, and the assumption is that since Sergeant Mark IV likes brutality and you seem not to nowadays, you would consider Sergeant Mark IV as someone who includes "bad" stuff and doesn't feel ashamed of it. I do realise this is an assumption, however the post is worded ambiguously in respect of such assumption - it neither contradicted it nor supported it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2020 21:16:20 GMT -5
Nah 40 is just mad that someone's calling him, rightfully, on his nonsense. He's done this before. He's turing it around on me like I'm the asshole. A little news flash for you 40: People don't go straight from zero to Half-Life: Black Mesa, they slowly build up by doing smaller and less ambitious projects. That's how they learn new skills, gain confidence, and meet others who teach them new tricks. The whole Brutal Doom thing was a necessary part of Mark's evolution as a content creator. If you didn't like Mark winning the first ever Cacoward for best Gameplay Mod in 2011, an MOTY award for creativity by Mod DB in 2012, and the Player's Choice 1st place in 2017 MOTY, you should have been out there creating something that rivaled what he did. That's the spirit of friendly competition, everyone wins because the creators are inspired to work harder and harder.
It's very Doomworld of you to hate on Brutal Doom, something I'd expect of Dew or Essel honestly. I've never installed Brutal Doom myself as it isn't my cup of tea, but when a mod is so influential that even id software and Romero pay attention, I give credit where credit is due.
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Post by Doomguy 2000 on Sept 26, 2020 12:59:39 GMT -5
Where did 40 say in his post that he hated Brutal Doom @vordakk ?
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Sept 26, 2020 14:15:19 GMT -5
Where did 40 say in his post that he hated Brutal Doom @vordakk ? Thank you! Furthermore, where did I say in any post that I hate brutal doom? Brutal Doom and its revolutionary appeal pioneered a wave of gameplay mods that are now played regularly by a significant population of current day doom players. That explains itself, but here I am, again, filling this post with rudimentary information we all know so we can all be on the same page. This wave of gameplay mods poses a wealth of unwanted challenges in the Doom mapping landscape that I would rather do without. In all sorts of gameplay mods I've seen hell Knights getting completely dismembered by two shotgun shots, chainguns wiping entire rooms clean in a few seconds, players dying while reloading their weapons, my monsters swapped with janky overpowered realm667 beastiary alternative bosses, my carefully designed arena fights blown up with a single hand grenade, skipping fights by flying around the map in a jetpack, vaulting over low walls and crates that are supposed to be barriers, players not being able to see past the excessive lighting effects and smoke generated from combat and prop decorations, my textures swapped with weirdly animating ones that make the map look wonky, and many more things that tamper with my creations in varying ways. The growing popularity of gameplay mods is an infinite void of potential problems that makes it very difficult for mappers to control the intended experience of their designs without taking extra steps to block gameplay mods or advertising that the people's gameplay mods of choice are incompatible. I completely understand this current problem could not have been foreseen by sgtmiv or me or anyone in the doom community. I've never played Brutal Doom so I don't have an educated opinion about it. I don't think it's absence would have increased any other mods popularity. I don't care about his cacoward, or any cacowards. Not even my own. I dont even care about his infamous suicide joke or political affiliations or whatever it is people keep qualifying their posts to disagree with him with. The Brutal Doom phenomenon is here. It happened. And it created this weird revolution of proto-Doom fans who don't actually enjoy the base game without it. And if his intention was to start making standalone games I kinda wish he would have just started on that instead of making the mod, continually updating it for an enormous length of time, and just leaving the community behind to deal with the problem his mod created.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2020 17:40:08 GMT -5
What I get from that post is: "I don't like gameplay mod popularity because it might conflict with the way I designed my own maps and might cause some players to have a different experience than I intended, boo hoo." Which again is all about you, you, you, very typically self-centered. Spoken like a true millenial who is unable to deal with changes in the world that may indirectly irritate them, with no thought given to others, passively playing the victim card rather than showing strength by facing those changes head on and coming up with solutions. As I said before, we all had the opportunity to think outside the box and create something that would rival BD and seduce players over to the base game. But you'd rather whine about sour grapes while this Marcos Abenante guy is out there working hard and producing something that tons of people like. At a minimum, if you don't want someone playing your maps with BD, just note it in the text file and move on. You aren't going to stop them if they are determined to do it. And who cares?! If that's how they best enjoy what you made, then is it even a bad thing? There are videos on Youtube right now of people playing my wads with gameplay mods, some of which I've never even heard of, and yes they all create a vastly different experience than I intended. And I couldn't care less honestly, because that person enjoyed themselves, so it's a win in my book. But no, instead you wish that someone had never influenced gameplay mod popularity, because it might have affected how certain players experience Doom.
In addition to being inconsiderate, your view is marvelously myopic. How about instead of viewing Brutal Doom as creating a subset of "proto-Doom fans who don't actually enjoy the base game without it"(which by the way is much more fantastical than my interpretation of your post), perhaps you might view Brutal Doom more correctly as something that attracts a new demographic to Doom. In the beginning they play with BD, and then many of them are educated about Doom and learn to play and enjoy the game without it. They discover pwads, and are slowly exposed to all the great stuff that's been made since 1994. This second sequence of events is much closer to what actually happens in real life.
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Sept 26, 2020 17:52:44 GMT -5
I know you want my post to be what you want it to be.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2020 21:23:32 GMT -5
It's actually Graf Zahl's opinion that mappers cannot mess with player's decisions to enable things like jumping, etc. that can be considered, if you so wish, to be responsible for people playing things the way they never intended to, then complaining maps are broken. (players playing maps the way they were not intended to by itself is not a wrong, because can be done and is sought out with any game - if there is not built-in capacity for that, there are cheat programs/trainers, or platform emulators with state save/load. What is wrong is telling mappers their map is broken because wasn't designed with some mod/jumping/whatever in my mind) Also, Brutal Doom was a gateway to one of my seasonal returns to Doom (as there were on and off periods in my dooming history), for some months I played wads with this mod exclusively, but eventually felt that I don't like the mid-tier balance (cacos dropping in one SSG shot is plain wrong for me) and coloured blood, and went back to vanilla dooming. It should, however, be noted that my first ever repick of Doom in adulthood was without mods, in fact, I was stuck with Chocolate Doom and could play only strict vanilla wads then. The reason was that Choco and Gzdoom were the only two ports distributed via https, with Gzdoom supporting scripting and thus viewed by me as less secure. In any way, Brutal Doom failed to "spoil" me. I should say that I actually enjoyed playing the mod at the time, else I wouldn't play everything with it for months before switching away. It certainly had a lot of replay value for me. However, no single mod/map has held my attention forever, whereas the base game does. To reiterate though, I believe you got the wrong guy to blame for gameplay mods. www.doomworld.com/forum/topic/106636-for-mappers-zscript-to-force-disable-jumping-and-crouching/However, I don't actually consider his point as marginal, the word "blame" is used only because that is your attitude towards mods. Actually, I don't think it is fair to condemn mods at all.
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