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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2020 4:46:47 GMT -5
In Aliens the Facehuggers (suggestive name) rape and impregnate the host, giving birth to a hideous monstrosity...I guess we should ban that too.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2020 8:05:17 GMT -5
I love how the typical stance of someone who missed the point is "oh let's censor X and Z because Y is tangentially related to Q".
No, that is not what is being said, what's being said is callous, worthless, tasteless references to sensitive topics due to the author being too lazy/edgy to put something normal probably upsets people and would be advisable to not include, not that you can't do but that you should expect negative reactions when you do something gauche like that.
It is so easy to read as the boogeyman left coming for your free speech, but literally it is explaining why acting like an arsehole nets you negative attention, every other example given about rape in media here has been a lot more profound than "player got raped".
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2020 9:25:56 GMT -5
mrthejoshmon, 1. The error of copy-paste and guilt by ignorance I would like to remind you that the "Ethereal soul" monster on Realm667 is packaged with the script that defines this monster and obituary for it, and the word "rape" is there. As of present day, no one has changed it. So if anyone copies monster and the definition to their wad, it will be there unless they explicitly spot and change the obituary. Now can I tell from my experience as a programmer that when you copy a large piece of code, you usually end up capturing a lot of unnecessary functionality you end up not even being aware of, until it causes problems. Because you didn't write it. Thus if one must at all copy, one should copy by smallest pieces and add, but not copy big piece and then remove - the latter process creates more mistakes. Now how many wad authors actually do that? And how many senior programmers still ignore that, despite they even have a saying that one should never copy-paste in the first place? At the end of day, they still do it, because sometimes it is faster indeed to copy-paste (tight deadline, and no time to abstract things away, laziness too can be a factor). And in fact, this "no copy-paste" paradigm is only suitable to some domains and not others. Loop unrolling is a thing some get to do manually. 2. Some needless copy-paste I never released I recheck my project with 6 or more vanilla dehacked monsters for which I've never made the finished maps to go with and thus never released it. There, I implemented obituaries - for advanced ports such as GzDoom - by way of LANGUAGE lump and not the script, including changing some of the stock obituaries. Most obituaries look fine, except maybe this one: "%o was fisted by %k" In light of this discussion, this might be a trigger word and so I better replace it. In fact, I can simply delete this as it will only appear in deathmatch, where as my project is primarly singleplayer. However, I didn't invent it. I copypasted this from KID_DUEL.wad, which I seem to have gotten from here: www.doomworld.com/idgames/levels/doom2/deathmatch/Ports/j-l/kid_duelAm I allowed to ask Doomkid to weigh on a subject? And I hope you do undestand why "fisted" can be offensive. Except to conclude this I need to really put into this perspective - what if I had real-life experience of involuntarily being fisted?
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Post by optimus on Jul 4, 2020 11:06:05 GMT -5
"%o was fisted by %k" And I hope you do undestand why "fisted" can be offensive. Except to conclude this I need to really put into this perspective - what if I had real-life experience of involuntarily being fisted? So everything that is a sexual joke in a deathmatch obituary, even if it doesn't imply rape, is problematic? Then again if you think about it, all deathmatch deaths are happening without someone's consent. Nobody ever says "Hey,. I'll let me player in the open so that you can blow me with your rocket launcher!". What about people who have someone recently lost, killed violently by a shooter? Or war veterans with PTSD? (In fact I vaguely remember people (or studies maybe) claiming playing video games like Doom helped them with the war PTSD, but that's beyond the point). It's becoming ridiculous..
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2020 11:23:16 GMT -5
optimus, that's exactly the point. At this moment I don't even know when something I wrote will offend somebody more than simply making them my enemy. It's like stepping out on the street and everybody seems to be out to get you. This thread nearly got one prominent member with an opinion I respect banned, and almost pushed them to declare they accept the possibility of them being banned. Because another person spray-painted a target on them - and yes, when in the past that target was spray-painted on me (that was not doom-related forums, just similar situation from long time ago), I usually went mad and wrote stuff that got me banned. And when I say "spray-painted" I am saying exactly this - when one's post is separated on a new thread, with that thread having a loaded name that suggest a view that somebody else (usually a moderator) takes on their post, and everyone attacking the view of that person that had their post involuntarily moved. I have experience being targeted in this situation and not once. To reiterate the point, "at this moment I don't even know when something I wrote will offend somebody more than simply making them my enemy". mrthejoshmon doesn't understand this. He doesn't understand that his own posts contribute me to feeling this way. He insists this point of view hurts others, not realizing that having hyper-vigilance in regards to one's own posts is damaging too. Words can hurt and self-censorship (having to think every time whether it wise or not wise to say something) also hurts. One should respect another was not intending to hurt them unless they deliberately personally call them out and start calling them derogatory names. Yes, I developed hyper-vigilance as the result of this discussion. I even woke at night and posted, not getting back to sleep. I even noticed I constantly scratching my head, touching my hair, etc. several times in one minute. But i disgress. I am worthless piece of shit that has no empathy, according to mrthejoshmon point. And yes, in fact I read John Romero's views on deathmatch back from the day when the Doom was being created and felt hurt too. I never liked multiplayer games because I suck at them, and his attitude reinforces me feeling miserable. But I simply avoid multiplayer games and don't insist that all people in the world must stop playing competitive multiplayer. Still I'd like to call Doomkid to have him explain the history of usage of certain obituaries in deathmatch, I am certain they go a long way back and his was not the first instance of it being used. Which should illustrate the point that doom culture is a product of entirely different days and is irreconcilable with this self-censorship culture of today.
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Post by optimus on Jul 4, 2020 14:56:01 GMT -5
@vigilantdoomer If it's so, I understand your anxiety. It's good to be honest about it. Ultimately, I don't bother if a creator decides what to change, when I post it's mostly an outrage phase with how the culture is today compared to the past. Apparently things like a single mistake that might trigger people can make creators stress a lot. Maybe I don't think much of it because I don't remember any of my own creation to have every had something controversial (but some days I do stress remembering something I said in some old forum or newsgroups or similar more than ten years ago, that could sound very sexist or be taken out of context, while I know I am not a bad person and it was just silly). It unfortunately creates a trend of older creators apologising and everyone agreeing that this is the new norm and the previous decades were wrong. Sometimes I think it's a lost battle or maybe it could go on another place, sometimes I just want to play Doom and create maps (this one I have years to do) and not bother with all that, but get attracted by another drama.
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Jul 4, 2020 15:23:37 GMT -5
optimus, that's exactly the point. At this moment I don't even know when something I wrote will offend somebody more than simply making them my enemy. It's like stepping out on the street and everybody seems to be out to get you. This thread nearly got one prominent member with an opinion I respect banned, and almost pushed them to declare they accept the possibility of them being banned. Because another person spray-painted a target on them - and yes, when in the past that target was spray-painted on me (that was not doom-related forums, just similar situation from long time ago), I usually went mad and wrote stuff that got me banned. And when I say "spray-painted" I am saying exactly this - when one's post is separated on a new thread, with that thread having a loaded name that suggest a view that somebody else (usually a moderator) takes on their post, and everyone attacking the view of that person that had their post involuntarily moved. I have experience being targeted in this situation and not once. To reiterate the point, "at this moment I don't even know when something I wrote will offend somebody more than simply making them my enemy". mrthejoshmon doesn't understand this. He doesn't understand that his own posts contribute me to feeling this way. He insists this point of view hurts others, not realizing that having hyper-vigilance in regards to one's own posts is damaging too. Words can hurt and self-censorship (having to think every time whether it wise or not wise to say something) also hurts. One should respect another was not intending to hurt them unless they deliberately personally call them out and start calling them derogatory names. Yes, I developed hyper-vigilance as the result of this discussion. I even woke at night and posted, not getting back to sleep. I even noticed I constantly scratching my head, touching my hair, etc. several times in one minute. But i disgress. I am worthless piece of shit that has no empathy, according to mrthejoshmon point. Sorry to be giving you anxiety, my friend. I do get pretty heated in arguments but I dont think I could stay mad at anyone forever. Although I havent used any yet, I'm pretty partial to temporary bans (2-10 days seems appropriate even for pretty high level offenses.) Its my personal opinion that permanent bans should be reserved for those deliberately antagonizing the forum, along with contributing almost nothing of value. @vigilantdoomer youve spent a lot of time engaging with forum topics in a friendly manner, and also playtesting, writing reviews, and recording demos for DBP. In the unlikely event that you become so destructive to the forum to be considered for a ban, those types of contributions to the community will be weighed in on whether the decision is worth it. At this time youre totally fine and maybe even a model member of the forum.
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Jul 4, 2020 15:38:10 GMT -5
Might I suggest a compromise? What if the wad author was not discouraged from including potentially offensive material in his creation, but was required to place some sort of disclaimer or warning tag on the wad, or perhaps annotate the wad in some way so that upon upload to /idgames it would be filed in a certain section of the archives containing potentially offensive material? Wad authors would also need to state this disclaimer up front when providing a link to such a wad on the forum itself, in cases where playtesting is required. This would allow for complete freedom of expression, while effectively eliminating the possibility that an unwary player might download and play a wad that could offend or trigger them. As I see it, this would satisfy both sides. What are your thoughts? I think even doomworld would agree with that compromise. It likely would have avoided the entire conflict if the mod were released that way. My suggestion from the start would be to contact shadowman privately, friend-to-friend to discuss the manner in which the offensive content was received. This would at least give him the opportunity to consider his players' feelings and make a decision about how to shape the content better to give the effect he may have been going for, remove/replace the content with something else, or just put a cautionary explicit content warning on the mod before people download. I dont really like to see people compromise their artistic vision anymore than you do, but as you put it with the Ford truck example, you dont always know how your message is going to be received. Even though id say this is a pretty big lapse in judgment, people should be given a fair chance to address it before being put on blast on the forum.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2020 17:22:14 GMT -5
optimus , that's exactly the point. At this moment I don't even know when something I wrote will offend somebody more than simply making them my enemy. It's like stepping out on the street and everybody seems to be out to get you. This thread nearly got one prominent member with an opinion I respect banned, and almost pushed them to declare they accept the possibility of them being banned. Because another person spray-painted a target on them - and yes, when in the past that target was spray-painted on me (that was not doom-related forums, just similar situation from long time ago), I usually went mad and wrote stuff that got me banned. And when I say "spray-painted" I am saying exactly this - when one's post is separated on a new thread, with that thread having a loaded name that suggest a view that somebody else (usually a moderator) takes on their post, and everyone attacking the view of that person that had their post involuntarily moved. I have experience being targeted in this situation and not once. To reiterate the point, "at this moment I don't even know when something I wrote will offend somebody more than simply making them my enemy". mrthejoshmon doesn't understand this. He doesn't understand that his own posts contribute me to feeling this way. He insists this point of view hurts others, not realizing that having hyper-vigilance in regards to one's own posts is damaging too. Words can hurt and self-censorship (having to think every time whether it wise or not wise to say something) also hurts. One should respect another was not intending to hurt them unless they deliberately personally call them out and start calling them derogatory names. Yes, I developed hyper-vigilance as the result of this discussion. I even woke at night and posted, not getting back to sleep. I even noticed I constantly scratching my head, touching my hair, etc. several times in one minute. But i disgress. I am worthless piece of shit that has no empathy, according to mrthejoshmon point. And yes, in fact I read John Romero's views on deathmatch back from the day when the Doom was being created and felt hurt too. I never liked multiplayer games because I suck at them, and his attitude reinforces me feeling miserable. But I simply avoid multiplayer games and don't insist that all people in the world must stop playing competitive multiplayer. Still I'd like to call Doomkid to have him explain the history of usage of certain obituaries in deathmatch, I am certain they go a long way back and his was not the first instance of it being used. Which should illustrate the point that doom culture is a product of entirely different days and is irreconcilable with this self-censorship culture of today. Where exactly did I call you garbage? Imply you were garbage? Seeing as though the only I'm insulting here is Bob then you're gonna have to colour me confused because I have no idea where your coming from partner. Scratch that, I do! Reflection is a powerful thing. I'm gonna address what you said because again I am baffled, help me understand. The point I'm making is not for censorship, I actually stated this more than once but you all keep conveniently missing that. What I am trying to explain is quite simple, Bob asked why the word rape is loaded, I explained this and also explained the concept as "social consequences", that little unseen but definitely heard concept is probably why we all don't walk around saying slurs and unaimed profanity out loud in public, people tend to not like you for that. We talk about the "player was raped" line again, so the author of the mapset C&P'd the obituary over, well I'll extend an apology to him (Still hold my right to judge him for the torture porn though) but I'll redirect my scorn to who made it originally, with that said I'll explain my colourful language. I'm being rude as hell itself because it seems like I need to exaggerate to emphasise everything I say, because, even now, you're missing what I am saying and jumping straight to that old censorship horse with your sticks in hand prepared for a thrashing most legendary (again, exaggeration for emphasis). I am explaining that using the word "rape", specifically the word "rape" to imply literal "rape" occurred, as in someone was literally "raped" in the callous way it was used does, more often than not, caused people to get uppity, I am stilled baffled on why you don't get this. If you said fucked, I would not have cared. Penetrated? Don't care. Abused? Tricky one that, but you can pass with it. Your example, fisted? Yeah, you could use that. Why is that then? Well let me explain. Fucked can mean one hundred and one things, Penetrated is a silly word that can be used as a double entendre, Abused can mean many things (rape being one of course), Fisted is a double entendre again... What's raped mean? Ask yourself what that could possibly mean. You see, people can take offence to all of these, all of them, and they can do that because they're free to do so, but none are as on the nose as raped is. "But this thing in that thing uses rape to, should we ban that too?" Well I never said ban it, I simply said you probably shouldn't do that less you pariah yourself over something so petty, that's petty modern human culture mate. But it's deeper than that, lemme use an example for you, the Xenomorphs from alien rape your face and force an egg into, literally rape you, you see that is to make you scared, horrified of these disgusting things but it is done so well, handled brilliantly, it adds to creature in such a horrific way and it serves purpose, the Xenomorph would not be the same without. The case we're talking about here is, as I keep repeating, worthless, pointlessly edgy, tasteless... Gauche. I do not like it, I do not however advocate for it's removal, I simply keep pointing out that people are quite clearly going to be upset about it and they are justified in their rage, you (as in they not you) could have picked so many different words in it's stead and it would have been an improvement over it's tastelessness, stop putting the words of censors in my mouth, a suggestion is different to an order. Are we all clear? Do you need me to further explain? I will, I got time to kill. Bob asked why it was loaded, why people were upset, I explained multiple times now, granted that is after I flatly insulted him because I quite frankly baffled beyond normal levels with this whole mess. You shouldn't let that get to you but I do understand why you would be bothered by my harsh language towards someone who holds the same ideals as you, by extension I am, in your head, insulting you. First thing, if I wanted to insult you, well, I would insult you, second thing is that I do indeed extend an apology to you for making you feel like garbage, I don't agree with your world view, like a lot of disagreeing with it, that is what people do you really shouldn't care about this nobody on a forum, I will never meet you and my opinion on you should be less than worthless to you mate.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2020 3:00:20 GMT -5
I think even doomworld would agree with that compromise. I wonder about that. Jabba didn't tell them to put a warning, he demanded that the scene is changed. I feel like his position is that a disclaimer isn't an excuse to do whatever you want.
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