Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2020 9:10:54 GMT -5
I've been thinking about what makes good things good and bad things bad, and the fact that all this stuff is relative makes me feel extremely weird. It just seems like there is no solid basis for any kind of moral judgements. So okay, most people agree that it would be nice to have food, water, safety, etc, and based on that they come to conclusions such as "stealing is bad", "killing is bad", etc. But that's just one of possible viewpoints, right? For example, some other people might say that humanity should go extinct so that it stops making life worse for millions of species on Earth. And I don't see any satisfying way to show that one of these viewpoints is more "correct" than the other. In order to compare them I would need some basis, some dogma, but where would that come from? If I was religious I could refer to the ten commandments or something, but I don't feel like lying to myself and pretending that some universal truth exists because that seems like wishful thinking to me. So I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that I can't even get angry at someone like mass murderers anymore because I can't prove that their ways are wrong. Like yeah, I would prefer a world with no murders but that seems like nothing more than my personal preference, and I don't see why I should look down on them for having a different preference.
Is there no satisfying way out of this? Do you pretty much have to accept some values as an axiom (in the same way that religious people choose to just believe in some things) in order to judge people? But how do you know which values to accept?? How can you be sure of anything in this chaotic world??? Somehow these thoughts are extremely depressing. I guess if I had less free time and more friends I would be too busy to think about this bullshit but unfortunately that is not the case. Probably the best solution would be to simply ignore this issue and trust my gut feeling (which indeed tells me that in most situations killing is bad) but I find it difficult to just close my eyes and pretend that this huge problem doesn't exist. I like to get to the bottom of things, you know. Has anyone here struggled with this? Can one solve this dilemma without the use of alcohol?
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BIG DICK NIGGA
this post is a lie about my bodily proportions
Major Arlene obsessed, 100% verified freakazoid. AKA bzzrak
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Post by BIG DICK NIGGA on Jan 2, 2020 13:39:21 GMT -5
The way out is to treat your personal feelings as the truth of the highest instance, so if you feel an act is wrong then it is wrong. The truth is different for every single person, but it doesn't vary much between most people, which is what we call common morality. Eg killing people is bad. Some people disagree with that but that's pretty harmful for our society so we isolate them. All in all, if you're not a psychopath of some sort then your judgement is sane and pretty close to what most people consider the truth. That's close enough. Too much thinking is harmful for you, leave that to other people, just act in accordance with your principles and don't hang around people with radically different ones
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2020 16:02:58 GMT -5
Hmm, but for example at some point in history slavery was so common that most people actually considered it normal I think. Was it a good thing that they just went with their gut feeling instead of doubting themselves? Just assuming that your feelings are correct seems pretty naive and dangerous. I understand that it's more comfortable to simply believe that you're right but I feel like this false comfort doesn't do it for me.
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BIG DICK NIGGA
this post is a lie about my bodily proportions
Major Arlene obsessed, 100% verified freakazoid. AKA bzzrak
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Post by BIG DICK NIGGA on Jan 2, 2020 17:03:55 GMT -5
Morality shifts over time. What was immoral at one point might have become moral at another. It also depends on society. 300 years ago the "truth" was that slavery was ok and that blacks were less intelligent, now it's not. People that believed that use d to be right then, and people that don't are right now. There isn't a single Objective Truth ™ out there, because people change, times change, hence their conduct changes too. Maybe in another 100 years being transgender or whatever will become as normalised among everyone, and people will be more open to it than they are now. Simply the definition of "being right" changes because everything around us changes
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TOS
You're trying to say you like DOS better than me, right?
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Post by TOS on Jan 2, 2020 17:21:31 GMT -5
Gravy makes things good.
Arsenic makes things bad.
To illustrate:
Gravy : Good :: Arsenic : Bad
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dmdr
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Post by dmdr on Jan 3, 2020 4:36:21 GMT -5
jesus I just wrote a huge long reply to this and managed to sausage finger the back button and delete it all. FUCK
in short: things generally have a purpose; speaking from a purely materialistic perspective, the purpose of biological things is to reproduce; murder prevents that; murder is bad (your instincts provide an intuitive shortcut to this conclusion). Anybody who ever thought about slavery realised it was bad but they usually lacked capacity to do anything about it, ie. slavery didn't become bad, it was always bad, people just didn't think about it. Objective truth is real; 1+1=2 and that doesn't change; failure to realise that implies a defect in the observer (eg. they're really drunk and are seeing double), not that 1+1=4 that day or whatever.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2020 5:59:08 GMT -5
What about treating women as second grade humans with less rights, do you think that men felt like "hmm, maybe we're doing something bad to them" for centuries and yet continued to behave in the same way? Seems pretty hard to believe that people would go against their feelings for so long.
If the purpose of biological things is to reproduce, we can probably help this process a lot by killing ourselves. There are millions of species that can't reproduce properly due to humanity's existence. Many of them eventually go extinct. So why don't we all just end out lives? Are we somehow more important than all other species combined? Why? I feel like so far we are probably the most evil in all history.
And why is the purpose of biological things to reproduce? Maybe the purpose is to draw pink elephants. Or to go extinct (after all, more than 99% of species that ever existed have died out). Or maybe there is no purpose at all. How do you know?
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dmdr
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Post by dmdr on Jan 6, 2020 5:41:28 GMT -5
last question first: because it's what they all do, from viruses to bacteria to fish to squids to dogs to cows to people. Any species that doesn't goes extinct, which you seem to agree is bad.
second question: the total biomass will remain approximately the same; it isn't somehow immoral that it's allocated to our species rather than any other. It's also worth noting that megafauna, ie. us and only us in most areas of the world these days, play an important role in maintaining the ecosystem for other species. See, for example, this TED Talk about elephants:
As such, it's by no means clear that removing humans from the equation will make things better for other species.
first question: 'rights' are a modern (and highly parochial!) concept and are entirely anachronistic in this context. It's also likely that whatever you think happened is grossly exaggerated -- Western European women in the middle ages had plenty of opportunities to be educated, for example (I read Europe in the High Middle Ages by John H. Mundy recently and he was talking about how some Europeans were confident at the time that Islam would be subsumed because Muslim men would all want to get married to Christian women, who could actually hold a conversation, and Muslim women would prefer to marry Christian men since they'd actually be allowed to learn to read etc. LOL). See also eg., Heloise and Hildegard of Bingen. It might also be worth noting that there were plenty of highly accomplished women that opposed women's suffrage back when that was a thing. Gertrude Bell comes to mind.
Still, I'm being parochial now, so let's talk about, for example, coerced marriages (very typical in hunter-gatherer societies, and seemingly still quite common in the Islamic world), to some extent women benefit from those policies too -- specifically the female relatives of the abductor, who thereby ensure their relative is going to reproduce -- and will usually support the men against recalcitrant females (it's also a good way to get 'divorced' in cases where the wife is dissatisfied with the husband, so in some cases the 'abductee' will arrange to be kidnapped). The dude at traditionsofconflict.com writes about this at some length. This kind of thing occurs in other species as well -- the alpha female of any given chimp troop will, apparently, help her son(s) pester other monkeys into having sex with him. Note that I'm not saying any of this is morally good, and in fact I picked this specific example because it was both commonplace and something I find repellent, just that women have benefitted from and have supported the 'patriarchy' for their own reasons.
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TOS
You're trying to say you like DOS better than me, right?
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Post by TOS on Jan 12, 2020 20:41:36 GMT -5
What about treating women as second grade humans with less rights... Thank God a room full of men voted in favor of giving women rights.
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Post by joe-ilya on Jan 13, 2020 4:20:21 GMT -5
Are you just going to ignore first wave and second wave feminism movement that happened prior?
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TOS
You're trying to say you like DOS better than me, right?
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Post by TOS on Jan 13, 2020 7:25:05 GMT -5
No.
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Post by joe-ilya on Jan 13, 2020 11:06:48 GMT -5
ok.
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