Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2022 12:13:23 GMT -5
Maybe because it's not that important to show off your dong in public and better to avoid such cases? just a thought tho.
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Lobo
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Post by Lobo on Jan 20, 2022 17:50:13 GMT -5
All these laws are easy to dismiss because eveeyone thinks it's nothing to do with themselves.
2 quick examples for laws being pushed in Spain:
case 1: you're in work, joking with your mate and call him a fag: another colleague is present who is actually gay and feels insulted by the situation: he reports you and you're suddenly before the judge on homophobic charges.
case 2: expanding the gender violence definition to include any act by any man to any woman. You have a car accident and bump into another vehicle being driven by a woman. Now you're on the same list as a sex offender/wife beater!
See how this stuff which in theory has nothing to do with you suddenly can bite you in the ass?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2022 0:21:46 GMT -5
The attitude of "it's easy to behave and get no trouble" is exactly this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_... Verdict: if unfair things happen, one must stand up for what is fair, even if the happenings don't personally concern them. P.S. Also, I don't hang around with people in real life who think "if it didn't happen to you, you don't have to be concerned with what happened to them". Because: 1. These people have no empathy, and also see above. 2. These people for sure will not back your ass when shit happens to you.
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Post by optimus on Jan 21, 2022 5:20:38 GMT -5
All these laws are easy to dismiss because eveeyone thinks it's nothing to do with themselves. 2 quick examples for laws being pushed in Spain: case 1: you're in work, joking with your mate and call him a fag: another colleague is present who is actually gay and feels insulted by the situation: he reports you and you're suddenly before the judge on homophobic charges. case 2: expanding the gender violence definition to include any act by any man to any woman. You have a car accident and bump into another vehicle being driven by a woman. Now you're on the same list as a sex offender/wife beater! See how this stuff which in theory has nothing to do with you suddenly can bite you in the ass? Wow, that's pretty bad! I am not sure if it's the 1st or the 2nd worse. The 1st slippery slope is expected if there are hate speech in the country, but haven't heard of the 2nd before. I've heard from other sources that Spain is pretty feminist infested in it's institutions, I'd hear cases of divorce laws, where the wife can just take your house after a divorce (or something like that, used to be, maybe the law isn't anymore). But accidentally bumping into a car that happens to be a woman and being written by the law as a misogynist or something? I sometimes think things like that happen because there is no pushback. Because men can't say no to women. It's sad to me as I have many friends in Spain. But I've heard, not from these friends though but from other sources, that there are a lot feminist written laws, it's way worse (but I can't verify though) than other countries.
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Jan 23, 2022 23:52:52 GMT -5
I think I see what kind of connection @wereknight sees between his treatment by those people and the woke movement: the latter uses and seeks to legitimize methods (like suspension or ex-communication without due legal process) that the former used against him personally. Since woke movement is large and prevalent and some politicians play to its flute, it means that he can expect being subjected to this kind of treatment in the future, or see people he cares about being subjected to it. Suspension or excommunication without due legal process is not woke in any circle I know about, and this is especially not true for liberals. Liberals love the law. Now I don't remember you ever denouncing cancel culture. The only feedback we got from you on this subject was is that it happens to both right and left, but you never made it clear that cancel culture in itself must be denounced. On the contrary, you supported Reddit and other platforms screening for abusive language and banning users, and said that these things are far from perfect, but a good thing - rather than considering these a very evil thing that shouldn't exist (leave judgement to courts for fuck's sake). Sorry, I don't have enough time to search right now for specific posts. This is because it's really not something i want to spend much energy thinking about. Whether I have an opinion of what your definition of "cancel culture" is really doesn't have any influence on anything. Its just some stupid buzzword used whenever someone successful loses their job over something most regular people have also been losing their jobs over all along. I doesn't seem like you notice this but seeing pages and pages of discussions about politics and covid19 is really off-putting on a doom forum. You're allowed to post about it because I'm not making rules against you expressing what's on your mind, but I want to use this forum for Doom and I personally don't like to be nagged into catching up with all the political noise out there so I can give you an educated opinion on it. And I imagine that people who come to lurk on this forum would generally find these kinds of debates to be very hostile. You're not threatened into being "cancelled" here but you should have some mutual respect for the people you're playing and talking about Doom with and that means people's identities are not determined by anyone other than themselves. We all have our own weird fucken names and stupid avatars that don't look like ourselves. Can we please just be fucken doom nerds without having to organize a resistance to everything?
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Post by olderthanthehills on Jan 24, 2022 0:19:06 GMT -5
What would be a plausible explanation for this: ketmar getting warnings for promoting his source portexactly how does it help anyone feel safer or is otherwise connected to the goal of making DW a 'safe space' for some protected category of people? Unless the only protected category is really the people in power, like in the real world with politicians using "safety" and "public interest" rhetoric, which ALWAYS ( zero fucking exceptions), concides with private interests of the ruling minority. Ketmar is an individual who chooses to express himself in a manner of ways that the self-proclaimed ruling class of Doom do not approve of, mon ami. It would perhaps be palatable if they were simply trying to ensure that Doomworld is un endroit confortable, but certain connected individuals do not approve of his creations and personality, he is thus treated unfairly despite not engaging in hostility or the use of derogatory slurs.
I would also like to take this moment to concur with 40oz on the subject of "cancel culture". The vast majority of the time one sees this buzzword being used, it is a brazen attempt to dismiss all critiques as mere cancel culture. However it is rarely the case; far more frequently this person has said or done something that the majority of people agree is répugnant, but simply does not want to engage in the act of self-reflection or admission of wrongdoing.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2022 2:17:01 GMT -5
40oz olderthanthehillsI provided an example of cancel culture in action: Richard Stallman being forced to resign from FSF, and his rather late readmission met with public resistance. This is not the first time I brought this case on these boards, and never you seemed to actually comment on this specific case. No, cancel culture is not some buzzword. And on the subject of someone successful getting the same unfair treatment as someone less successful does - does this make it any more fair? Someone like Stallman, the creator of concept of "free as in freedom" software deserved it? This is what you mean to say? Things are fair when others you don't like get the same unfair shit which happened to you? You just basically confirmed that you approve of what I term "cancel culture" because it can be useful to you to bring down "successful" people. Except for me, I have seen it happen to people I care, which is why I never support it. You are the kind of man who thinks gallows are useful because they can be used to execute "successful" people and they also brought down some people who didn't deserve it, but somehow you don't think allowing gallows sets up the possibility of your own execution. Something that happened to the men behind the French Revolution, you know - the father of terror was executed by the very thing he was fond of. It is also not unusual for individuals thinking purely rationally (and daring to express it) to be considered saying something ethically/morally repugnant by majority. This does not justify the treatment these individuals get. Remember, it happened on this forum too, think @vordakk and how you treated him over the debate on how word "rape" used in a obituary by someone (Shadowman) who didn't even actually write this obituary in the first place, but just copied it along with the monster from Realm667 it came from, probably not even seeing the phrase in question. It should be allowed to have rational discussions in a manner that discards ethics altogether, or seeks to revise them.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2022 2:29:46 GMT -5
Losing the job over things said must never be acceptable (no matter to whom it happens), instead, it must be considered unlawful, criminal act recognised by courts as such. Unless the things said in itself constitute a criminal offense, in which case the removal from job may occur only if, as the result of individual found criminally responsible for the act, he can no longer hold that job (that is, when it's not at employers discretion but just part of consequences for serving the term or being barred by law from certain occupations). However, cancel culture is more than just employer removing you from job. It is indeed about other people ex-communicating the person in question (what 40oz claimed the woke don't do), which is not just an action of one person, but a viral trend to do so. It is also, contrary to olderthanthehills claim, doesn't stop and reverse itself at apology, read this (the perspective of person who initiated the cancel action against RMS): selamjie.medium.com/remove-richard-stallman-appendix-a-a7e41e784f88 - apology was quoted and rejected as "weak" and "insufficient". The perspective of people who defend Richard Stallman can be found here: stallmansupport.org/
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2022 2:38:29 GMT -5
Also, in regards to why I discuss this on Doom forum is because these things "phone home": 1. Shadowman incident, which sparked a discussion on this board, where some people on this board claimed he is an edgelord and perhaps some of treatment was justified, which I had to spend a lot of my mental resources to debate. In fact I spent so much resources that this led to me try a real-life action against activists (infiltration as an undercover agent, except without legal cover, just one man pretending being someone he is not) that are vocal against so-called "hate speech", etc. 2. An incident where @vordakk could have been banned, which happened actually as the result of Shadowman incident. I too spend a lot of energy and time trying to prevent this from happening and otherwise defend him.
I have bad blood with cancel culture within the Doom community, not just without, and a good chunk is attached to people on this forum (as well as a shitload to Doomworld). That's why I bring this issue here. It is also part of why I can't choose which country I can move to from Russia, Russia doesn't seem a safe place to me, and I can't really enjoy Doom or make maps for long because I have anxiety over this lack of safety and lack of where I could attain it. I think about negative consequences every day, and even in my dreams. These things matter a lot to me, and they interfere with my passion for Doom.
You see, when I am pursuing a hobby, a voice in the back of the head nags me about not doing anything to ensure my safety. Whenever I'm trying to do something Doom related, I am wasting my time, not doing anything to protect myself. But what can I do, in a situation when West is consumed by ideology that will also make me unsafe, subject to maintain a false image unless I want to be persecuted, while East is hard to blend into and has culture which I will have trouble to adapt to?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2022 7:28:28 GMT -5
Suspension or excommunication without due legal process is not woke in any circle I know about, and this is especially not true for liberals. Liberals love the law. How does giving positive referral (something you've done before) to "In defense of looting" amount to the "love of the law"? Could the person that wrote it be considered woke or liberal? If so, how does it mesh with "liberals love the law"? It is fortunate for you you didn't say woke love the law, cause arguing that looting is an act of love for anything would not pass with flying colors sure (or pass at all, for that matter).
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Jan 24, 2022 10:18:37 GMT -5
@vigilantdoomer I understand where you are coming from. I just wish there was something I could say that would put your mind at ease. I don't have any connections to the Russian government nor do they know who I am. There is no way that me supporting or denouncing cancel culture will have any influence on how the Russian government operates. I'm not even close to being that powerful. I do see the correlation between your oppressive government and the tyrannical behaviors of doomworld staff by the way they treat their members like they are expendable. Like their voices and opinions don't matter and that they are better off not being allowed to enjoy their game with other people. I think this is very destructive to the community's health and the growth of the game. Your anxieties are valid but I'm not like them. I'm the administrator here but it's not for personal gain. I don't need to prove my worth to anyone or exercise my authority like doomworld staff does. I only use it when I'm dealing with someone that is making the experience of being on this forum feel bad.
This is a doom forum, and the way people come here at all is a product of how much effort I put into making this 'feel' like a doom forum. This place didn't really have any purpose other than being "not doomworld" when it started. I had to actively promote the doom projects and make mapping discussion threads because the people that are here don't do it much themselves. When I'm arguing politics, it makes a very uncomfortable conversation with a lot of hostility and "us vs. them." Sometimes people come here to want to make friends and it's hard to make friends with someone who talks about the things you do with such anger. Fans of Doom usually can't relate and to converse with you can really backfire and have them treated like an enemy for having thoughts or behaviours that are guided by perspectives like "I think racism is wrong" or "I got the vaccine to slow the spread of covid-19." People usually find out about this forum through the DBPs and when they come here to look into how to make good maps and be a part of the team, they expect to see people talking about Doom. When they show up here and see people arguing about politics and not having free speech, they must feel like they are being trolled. These conversation topics are not showing themselves in the wads that are made here.
You play the game, and you offer a lot of valuable testing feedback and have pitched texture themes and ideas and made doom dehacked patches and stuff which is exactly the kind of stuff I love to see here. But if you had your political opinions to bring here and only those opinions this would become a problem. It's just not fun to talk about and a lot of people sit it out in hopes that someone else with engage with you. I do it because I'd like you to feel heard and understood here. I just hope you'll spend as much energy talking about things that are useful for the doom community as well.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2022 11:42:06 GMT -5
Alas, you failed to see how your own political opinions and stance towards certain members here representing different opinions made the doomer boards a place where my anxiety is reinforced rather where it can be vented out. It is not that your stance toward cancel culture can influence Russian government either way, it is the fact that I have to deal with aggressive wokeness proponents having admin powers on a website that could have been an escape place from restrictions on what opinions one can hold and express. I don't want to put a false front to cover my true identity, beliefs, opinions and etc and have to live with that false front. It does not matter whether it's antifa, woke, or Russian government - no real difference between these things in how they impact a dissenting person's life - either of these things would require me to maintain a public (or worse yet, private) false persona to survive.
I can relieve you by saying that I consider this discussion here finished. I certainly picked into some of your positions I could previously only guessed about, but now I have confirmed my worst expectations. As for making you budge and reconsider, it seems impossibility, thus no reason for discussion to go on.
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Jan 24, 2022 12:24:46 GMT -5
Alas, you failed to see how your own political opinions and stance towards certain members here representing different opinions made the doomer boards a place where my anxiety is reinforced rather where it can be vented out. I don't believe you. You have 1300 posts here and you voice political opinions a lot. I really don't think the discomfort you feel talking about this stuff is coming from here.
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