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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2020 23:58:36 GMT -5
Let me just start that I am by no means an anti-vaxxer but I have a few concerns regarding the upcoming Coronavirus, especially after some recent news: 1. Traditionally, vaccines take years to develop. As far as I know, it's not that hard to make a vaccine, what is hard is making sure it is safe and effective. So far, there have been two cases where experimental vaccines have caused severe side effects. The virus is not that dangerous to most people, especially if young but what if due to not enough testing you could get side effects, maybe even years later and maybe even unnoticeable? What if 5 years after you get liver problems or something? If 1 in 1000 or even 10000 people get severe side effects it might even give anti-vaxxers more ammo. www.statnews.com/2020/10/12/johnson-johnson-covid-19-vaccine-study-paused-due-to-unexplained-illness-in-participant/www.marketwatch.com/story/oxford-astrazeneca-to-resume-coronavirus-vaccine-trial-after-reported-side-effect-in-uk-patient-2020-09-122. Some companies, such as Moderna are making a new RNA-based vaccine. The problem is that there has never been such a vaccine before, it has a short development cycle and Moderna has never released a product before. Again, it might work, but what if for a significant minority of people the cure is much worse than the disease? 3. The first vaccine might come from unscrupulous governments with bad human rights records such as China, who are skipping Phase 3 trials, large scale trials which are crucial for determining efficacy and safety. If they release it first, it might force companies from other countries to develop it even faster. What do you guys think? As for myself, I am really not sure. I am young, healthy and go to the gym. If I get it I will probably be fine but what if I get serious health problems because it wasn't tested on enough people?On the other hand, I am also worried about passing it to my grandmother, who has heart and lung problems. The whole world also needs to get back to normal ASAP because many small businesses can't afford to be locked down forever. Yesterday I saw on the news a farmer who is having a really hard time and in my country at least, tourism, restaurants and hotels are suffering greatly. I am very fortunate to be able to work from home but most people are not so lucky. We are racing against the clock because the longer it takes, the more the virus mutates, potentially making the vaccine useless and affecting the economy even more. To me it seems like we are stuck between a rock and a hard place. |
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BIG DICK NIGGA
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Major Arlene obsessed, 100% verified freakazoid. AKA bzzrak
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Post by BIG DICK NIGGA on Oct 14, 2020 1:01:44 GMT -5
Only when it's confirmed safe (by my country's authorities or whoever). If I get it, I'll probably be alright anyway, and I don't live with any relatives or anyone who could be legitimately endangered by the virus
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2020 4:07:20 GMT -5
If it's mandatory I'll probably take it because going against the law is kinda scary. If it's not I'll probably be too lazy to go and get it unless the whole process takes like 2 minutes.
Btw if it backfires, would that be grounds for a spectacular class action lawsuit?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2020 5:27:46 GMT -5
If it's mandatory I'll probably take it because going against the law is kinda scary. If it's not I'll probably be too lazy to go and get it unless the whole process takes like 2 minutes. Btw if it backfires, would that be grounds for a spectacular class action lawsuit? It potentially backfiring is precisely why you can't force people to take it. Even if it wouldn't you couldn't be able to do that. |
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GRUG
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Post by GRUG on Oct 14, 2020 7:16:55 GMT -5
If it's mandatory I'll probably take it because going against the law is kinda scary. If it's not I'll probably be too lazy to go and get it unless the whole process takes like 2 minutes. Btw if it backfires, would that be grounds for a spectacular class action lawsuit? It potentially backfiring is precisely why you can't force people to take it. Even if it wouldn't you couldn't be able to do that. Agreed. I’m not anti-vaxx but hypothetically speaking if a vaccine (or any vaccine) has dangerous adverse affects, then it should not be made mandatory. We’re not guinea pigs. And who is going to assume liability if a vaccine causes severe adverse affects if made mandatory? I don’t see a reason why a Coronavirus vaccine should be made mandatory. If people want to voluntarily take it, then go right ahead. But for a virus that has a high recovery rate on the average healthy individual, it just doesn’t make sense. People who are “high risk” should consider it, but for God sake don’t force them like an animal. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2020 7:26:24 GMT -5
I will take it, as long as it has been proven to be safe.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2020 7:49:31 GMT -5
I don't even care if it is safe at this point, as long as it fucks this shit off and I can finally get outside the shed I'm fine.
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40oz
diRTbAg
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Post by 40oz on Oct 14, 2020 8:16:40 GMT -5
I actually kinda like wearing a mask and will probably continue to wear one in public forever. Mine fits comfortably and looks kinda cool. It hides my face from strangers I don't want to know, hides from facial recognition software, and brought attention to how often people are fucking spitting on each other in casual conversation. (I wash my mask twice a week)
95% of covid 19 deaths are with patients with a vitamin A deficiency, so I've been taking vitamin supplements. I personally don't think I'll need a vaccine since I never contracted it (even though some of my immediate family members did,) I also work from home and don't spend much time at all in public. But at the same time if you do live closely with a friend of family member who is immunocompromised, I'd highly encourage you to get it.
I'm not sure if this needs to be said, but the way it's weirdly over-politicized should seriously not be a concern about whether you should get it or not.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2020 10:43:23 GMT -5
I have averse reactions to some vaccines so I'll have to research whether I am going to be affected. This also means I will be waiting for more testing to happen. I don't expect the vaccine to be made mandatory in countries where human rights still hold at least some value.
P.S. Not an anti-vaxxer - I hate those morons.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2020 12:42:14 GMT -5
I have averse reactions to some vaccines so I'll have to research whether I am going to be affected. This also means I will be waiting for more testing to happen. I don't expect the vaccine to be made mandatory in countries where human rights still hold at least some value. P.S. Not an anti-vaxxer - I hate those morons. When someone says it should be mandatory that tells you a lot about their character. I'm sure some US states will try to force people to take it. |
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Post by thundercunt on Oct 15, 2020 10:12:41 GMT -5
nah, I don't want to have autism
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Post by dr_st on Oct 15, 2020 13:28:35 GMT -5
what if due to not enough testing you could get side effects, maybe even years later and maybe even unnoticeable? What if 5 years after you get liver problems or something? To be fair, you should ask the same question about the virus as well. Yes, most people survive it, but what if they will suffer from side effects, which will only manifest years later? Historically, side effects of vaccines based on weakened versions of viruses have been less severe than side effects of just contracting the disease. There is no reason to think it will be different here, assuming of course the vaccine will be subject to the same kind of rigorous testing that all vaccines are. If you trust the science of making vaccines in general and if you trust the medical establishment of your country, I see no reason why you should treat the eventual COVID vaccine any different. If you don't trust these things, well, then you don't. In any case, I don't think it should be mandatory (nor that any vaccine should be), and I don't believe it will be. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2020 13:40:05 GMT -5
what if due to not enough testing you could get side effects, maybe even years later and maybe even unnoticeable? What if 5 years after you get liver problems or something? Historically, side effects of vaccines based on weakened versions of viruses have been less severe than side effects of just contracting the disease. There is no reason to think it will be different here, assuming of course the vaccine will be subject to the same kind of rigorous testing that all vaccines are. That's the point, they have less time to properly test it. What was traditionally done in years is done in months now. |
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Post by dr_st on Oct 15, 2020 14:03:29 GMT -5
Correct, and as you pointed out, this mostly affects our level of certainty regarding long-term side effects or the absence thereof. This is especially valid if the method of vaccination is a novel one.
If it ends up being similar to most other vaccines which basically use weakened/dead viruses, then I see no reason why the long-term side effects would be worse than the same effects of catching the virus and coping with the disease.
In that case, you would have to weigh the probability of developing adverse side effects from the vaccine (let's call it P1), versus the probability of developing such side effects from the disease (P2) and the probability of catching the virus in the first place (P3). I think that for any reasonably vaccine developed using the best known scientific practices, P1 < P2. But is P1 < P2*P3? I don't know.
It may be that for someone who is not in a known risk group, a good strategy might actually be holding off on the vaccine for a few years, trying simply to avoid contracting COVID, while the vaccines go through more testing and we accumulate more data.
I also don't expect a one-time per-life immunization, but more like flu shots, where you have to take one every year to stay immunized. And then you decide year-by-year whether you want it or not. After all, not everyone takes flu shots either.
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dmdr
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Post by dmdr on Oct 15, 2020 17:21:13 GMT -5
@dr_st@drst I did a quick search re: potential long-term effects of diversity flu and came up with this: www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coronavirus-long-term-effects/art-20490351the most relevant part: so at this point it's reasonable to assume that only those who should already be concerned about the kung flu should be concerned about potential ongoing effects. Given the general level of scaremongering surrounding the virus (ie. even worse than the bizarre hysteria surrounding Orson Welles' War of the Worlds radio adaptation) it's also reasonable to assume that any such 'discussion' surrounding potential long term effects in the future is also braindead scaremongering, or at best an attempt to save face by those who have been spouting shit all along ("uh yeah guys everything we've said so far was wrong and stupid but it could get worse in the future!!!") and should be easily ignored. Regarding scaremongering, I'm assuming everyone saw this CDC report: www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/cdc-94percent-of-covid-19-deaths-had-underlying-medical-conditions/ar-BB18wrA7archived version in case you need or prefer it: archive.is/oFQ8Nthe headline speaks for itself I think, although if you read on you'll get to this part: The article also helpfully provides a big list of these 'additional causes': teal deer, you might die of bat flu if you already have 2.6 extra conditions, any one of which is bad enough to kill you by itself. In short, no, I won't be getting the vaccine unless I'm forced to (I'd like to think I'd hold out until physically held down but realistically a moderate amount of psychological pressure would be enough to get me to buckle under). It's completely unnecessary. Finally, click on this for a video of Aussie cops arresting an elderly woman for sitting on a park bench:
a direct link if it will work this time (useful for those with scriptblockers)SCIENCE!!!!!! |
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Post by dr_st on Oct 16, 2020 11:55:59 GMT -5
dmdr It has been well known pretty much from the beginning that underlying medical conditions increase the risk of dying of COVID by orders of magnitude. However your list mixes underlying (i.e., pre-existing) conditions, with specific causes of death of COVID patients (such as cardiac arrest). No one dies of a virus. People die of organ failures, caused by a chain of events, starting with a virus. Pneumonia, is one thing that can develop directly due to COVID infection, for example. So it's a bit hard to analyze the data when it is provided this way. I don't foresee anyone forcing you to get vaccinated. It may be required at some point to get certain services, like flying internationally. I think that's when most people are going to "buckle under", as you put it. BTW, I only now noticed that all links posted here go through redirect.viglink.com. Why? Edit: weird, must have been a glitch. Links look normal now.
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dmdr
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Post by dmdr on Oct 16, 2020 19:07:13 GMT -5
I don't foresee anyone forcing you to get vaccinated. It may be required at some point to get certain services, like flying internationally. I think that's when most people are going to "buckle under", as you put it.
Requiring unnecessary medical interventions to perform basic tasks is coercion. Also, would you have foreseen coppers hassling old ladies on park benches in Australia this time last year? Probably not -- I wouldn't have. In any case what you (or I, for that matter, despite the fact that I'm a megagenius) foresee has no bearing on what actually happens.
As for the rest we can also compare death rates per month throughout the US (I'm using the US as an example, even though I am not a yank myself, because the US actually makes this sort of thing reasonably easy to find. It's also scaremongering central, even if it's response hasn't been quite as retarded as the Victorians has) and see if there's been any major increase in deaths -- assuming the diversity flu is as bad as our masters pretend it is, there should have been a major upswing.
ANYWAY I wrote a huge long thing, attempted to gather monthly fatality data from the CDC (and other) websites and then found a NY Times article that has done my job for me. Sigh. Here's the short version.
that was the most lethal month. It turns out that there was a pretty major upswing then, far larger than I was expecting (in spite of my megageniosity; there were approx. 310K total deaths -- based on the weekly CDC data here: www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/index.htmand adjusted a bit since the April range therein has 35 days rather than 30, compared to about 220K in 2015, as per the UN data here: data.un.org/Data.aspx?d=POP&f=tableCode%3A65 ). So I was wrong... in April. Here's the NYT article I was talking about though:
You'll note that pretty much every mortality chart shows that things have returned completely to normal almost everywhere, including the US -- you can read the article if you like but it's really just the usual screeching. In conclusion, while I'm not as smart as I think I am, I'm still unwilling to eat humble pie and get some stupid vaccine, especially since sensible viruses become less lethal over time (due to improved immune systems in the survivors and the fact killer viruses run out of hosts faster).
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2020 2:32:50 GMT -5
dmdrWish things were back to normal here. We were doing quite well until mid-July. Then from 300 a day we got 500, then slowly to 1000, then suddenly 2000, a few days after 3000 and for the last few days we've been at 4000. For a population of around 20 million, with a corrupt and substandard government health system that's pretty bad. We can't take it much longer, pretty soon the hospitals will be fully packed and the doctors will have to decide who gets to live and small business owners are suffering greatly, especially in the tourism industry. Meanwhile, our corrupt, incredibly inept government are increasing pensions for old people and salaries for government workers for some reason, putting even more of a strain on business owners.
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Post by dr_st on Oct 17, 2020 6:26:52 GMT -5
Requiring unnecessary medical interventions to perform basic tasks is coercion. I think many states or local authorities already have such regulations in place in regards to requiring certain immunization records before accepting children into public school systems. And these are things much more basic than international flights. You can be for it or against it, but the motivation for this policy is clear. Also, would you have foreseen coppers hassling old ladies on park benches in Australia this time last year? Probably not -- I wouldn't have. In any case what you (or I, for that matter, despite the fact that I'm a megagenius) foresee has no bearing on what actually happens. On that I can partially agree, but common sense usually prevails when laws of large numbers apply. Government policy is not the same thing as on-the-spot decision made by an individual cop. In conclusion, while I'm not as smart as I think I am, I'm still unwilling to eat humble pie and get some stupid vaccine, especially since sensible viruses become less lethal over time (due to improved immune systems in the survivors and the fact killer viruses run out of hosts faster). Like I said, I don't think you'll have any problems if you live in a sensible country. However, I do want to ask, for my own curiosity - why do you object to the vaccine so much? Is it a simple "they're not gonna tell me what to do" attitude? A reaction to what you perceive as excessive fear-mongering? Or genuine concern regarding the safety (and perhaps efficacy) of the hypothetical vaccine? |
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Oct 17, 2020 7:39:44 GMT -5
A reaction to what you perceive as excessive fear-mongering? I wonder about this a lot. My facebook feed has a lot of this "tough guy" attitude towards democratic left. It's written like "were going to war with you, pussies!" but the reaction is obviously rooted in fear. If the fearmongering wasn't successful you wouldn't have a reaction to it. |
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dn
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Post by dn on Oct 17, 2020 8:31:34 GMT -5
the root cause of anti-vaccination sentiment is not science, or lack of knowledge thereof. The root cause is in *distrusting your government*. If you think the people in charge are either (a) incompetent, or (b) malicious, then why on earth would you trust them to pump chemicals into your body?
I have seen nothing in the UK to suggest anything but outrageous incompetence. And I know for a fact that they would cheerfully kill me if it meant a better economic outlook for the country at large (nothing personal, kid, it's just math). I also know that drug companies are fucking evil (not up for debate) and I'm fairly certain that the top 0.01% of the world that make these decisions are a cabal of eugenically selected sociopaths and child rapists.
In short, I'll watch and wait for the result of all the other lemmings flying over the cliff before making my own decision on the matter.
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Justince
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Post by Justince on Oct 17, 2020 10:41:12 GMT -5
No chance in hell. Not unless it undergoes the normal clinical drug trial testing which take a minimum of 4 years and hundreds of test patients and revisions, which put it back another couple years. How many ambulance-chasing lawsuit infomercials have you seen in your lifetime? "Did you take x drug and suffer debilitating side effects and or death?" and those are normal drugs that have the typical trial testing period among a large sample group for a very specific condition. And this is a fucking COVID vaccine designed to be deployed in the hundreds of millions? LOL FUCK NO.
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Post by dr_st on Oct 17, 2020 10:41:24 GMT -5
If you think the people in charge are either (a) incompetent, or (b) malicious, then why on earth would you trust them to pump chemicals into your body? I have seen nothing in the UK to suggest anything but outrageous incompetence. And I know for a fact that they would cheerfully kill me if it meant a better economic outlook for the country at large (nothing personal, kid, it's just math). I also know that drug companies are fucking evil (not up for debate) and I'm fairly certain that the top 0.01% of the world that make these decisions are a cabal of eugenically selected sociopaths and child rapists. With that mindset, I wonder how you can even trust the food you buy and the water you drink, then. |
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dn
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Post by dn on Oct 17, 2020 10:55:00 GMT -5
With that mindset, I wonder how you can even trust the food you buy and the water you drink, then. Simple. Scotland has probably the purest water in the world because it never stops falling out of the fucking sky. We fucking export water into England, because the shit that comes out of the taps in London tastes like the kidneys of the last junkie that pished it out. Fuck your fluorine. As for food, we have laws and shit that prev.... oh no wat Westminster are legalizing chlorinated chicken because of brexit?Well, as I was saying, incompetence and malicious intent. Although I should have added corruption to that list from the fucking start. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2020 16:00:54 GMT -5
There is little reason to distrust vaccines that have been tested for years made by people who are not under constant pressure. I was vaccinated as a kid and I don't regret it at all.
It's like a game that is being forced out because a publisher is suddenly in dire straits. It might work just fine but it might also not. Honestly, right now I am hoping the Tuberculosis vaccine actually does something. We're pretty sure it won't kill us.
But forcing people to take it? That's a line I hope no government will ever cross. There's good arguments for not taking this particular vaccine. If it's from China or Russia for example then I am definitely NOT taking it.
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