xeepeep
Banned
Forever
Posts: 2,338 
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Post by xeepeep on Jul 13, 2023 16:32:37 GMT -5
People really be shilling for map format enhancements (and new features) these days smh
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Post by camper on Jul 14, 2023 7:44:46 GMT -5
I don’t really know what mbf21 is, why is it needed? I am satisfied with the existence of different dissimilar ports. Why dump everything in one heap? I like both gzdoom and edge classic and k8 and even...assault cube, although it is not doom at all with static maps. I would even welcome a fork of the doom port that does not have dynamic map changes so that it is fast and supports full multiplayer and 3d model customization like in AC.
If you dream about something, then do it yourself and do not impose it by force. But if the idea seems interesting, it can be expressed without pressure.
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tdrr
Doomer
Posts: 68 
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Post by tdrr on Jul 14, 2023 14:44:07 GMT -5
MBF21 brings no new features, or really anything of value to the port beyond compatibility with some mods. K8Vavoom can already do everything MBF21 would've come with, and FAR more, in a much cleaner way.
Honestly I think we should've gotten a subset of DECORATE and the Hexen map format for easier adoption into more ports, not yet another set of features tacked on to DEHACKED (that was only made for editing the original .exe but for some reason hasn't died on newer ports) and a couple more flags squeezed out of the already tight on size Doom map format.
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Lobo
Doomer
Posts: 594
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Post by Lobo on Jul 14, 2023 15:02:25 GMT -5
Map flags which cause conflicts I might add, so you have to add an mbf21 compatibility switch.
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Post by agiskell on Jul 14, 2023 15:50:30 GMT -5
OK, so... I decided to give k8vavoom a decorate mod/(G)ZD map test drive and here are the results.
I've copied over DRLA, Kegan's mods(Combined Arms, GMOTA, Space Hunter, Combined Arms Gaiden and Combined Malefactors), Final Doomer, Supercharge v3, Kriegsland and Colourful Hell. Yholl's mods straight up don't boot for one reason or another, but ultimately it seems k8vavoom doesn't react well to the hacky way some things were done. Kegan's mods seem to be working, but they all bar Combined Malefactors rely super heavily on custom HUDs that the port lacks for some reason. Same goes for pretty much every single mod that managed to boot. Kriegsland works perfectly fine outside of HUD stuff. Colourful Hell seems to be working rather well, I haven't ran into any issues thus far with it. Supercharge v3 is weird, however. k8vavoom does a well-meaning thing, but the way it was implemented happens to throw out false positives like in the case of this mod. Supercharge is actually compatible with Zandronum 3.x and ZDoom 2.8.1 and their GZDoom equivalents, not just with ZScript-compatible versions of GZDoom. After I removed the lump, the mod not only worked fine, the port actually recognized some of the custom stuff albeit not everything. It refuses to acknowledge "SC Options" main menu option and silently drops it.
Mapwise, however, k8vavoom seems to be fairing somewhat better, but it has its moments too. Cheogsh Remake, for example, doesn't boot and complains about some model having an invalid index and doesn't ignore it, choosing to not let you load the mapset at all. Doom 64 portion of Kinsie's Consolation Prize also doesn't boot and complains about MAPINFO syntax(Script error at D:\DoomGreyFilesMkIII\Geimus\Fucking Doom\k8vavoom\con_doom64-1.5.pk3:mapinfo.txt:647: Invalid command '=') even though everything looks fine. Could it be it just misinterpreted the curly brackets for something else(Warning: MAPINFO:D:\DoomGreyFilesMkIII\Geimus\Fucking Doom\k8vavoom\con_doom64-1.5.pk3:mapinfo.txt:644: Unimplemented flag '{') and then it snowballed into whatever happened? PSX portion works fine, however. Good ol' ZPack doesn't seem to be having any issues. I even decided to do something actually crazy and try loading Lullaby. It actually loaded. I may only had about 5 FPS but it actually got in-game. It was just as impressive seeing ZDCMP2 load eventually, but FPS leave a lot to be desired, I was getting about 10-15 FPS at most. Strange Aeons, Unloved and dead air work well as far as I'm concerned. I also tried playing DUMP trilogy and Compendium, but I've ran into a rather weird issue. For some reason if you enter a level from a hubmap, no monsters spawn, not unless you follow the advice of the man with lightning eyes and an hero your doom dude. I wonder what went wrong there... Everything else should be working well for sure. I have few doubts that it can run Boom and Vanilla mapsets with barely any issue.
All in all, it appears I was wrong in the end. In its current state, k8vavoom needs to show some more love and especially tolerance to Decorate(hacks are fine too), lacks any support for custom HUDs outside of the one this port provides and doesn't seem to support mods that change the main menu(but it does support adding new menus in settings ala ZDoom) and its ZScript detection still needs some more work. It really is too early to think about adding MBF21 support when this port can't even run ZDoom 2.8.1 mods reliably. Same goes for DDF, unless providing support for it is going to be easier.
PS. If needed, I will provide console logs for mods and mapsets that don't work.
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Post by ketmar on Jul 15, 2023 1:08:25 GMT -5
first, thank you for your testing efforts! i try to explaing some project goals and decisions below, but it doesn't mean that i don't appreciate your work.
k8v is very picky about errors (syntax, argument types, etc.). this is conscious design choice. aside from unimplemented DECORATE actions/flags (i am usually implementing something when i want to play some mod, and it is using some missing feature), almost everything that is not working/working wrong is due to buggy mod code. the absense of proper specs for DECORATE plays its role too. support any buggy ZDoom mod in existense is not a project goal.
also, there are features that k8v doesn't support, and will proly never support, like custom weapon overlays. and features which implemented in a completely different way (player morphing), so they simply cannot be supported in compatible way.
as for rendering performance: yes, it is not stellar. there are some optimisation techniques i didn't implemented yet, so rendering complex maps with many details, or with huge detailed visible areas are quite slow. sometimes you may have slightly better performance by switching to lightmapped renderer. i will definitely improve rendering speed in the future, but this requires some redesigning of renderer internals, so it's quite slow process.
custom HUDs could be implemented entirely in VavoomC (i mean SBARINFO lump support), and i have proof-of-concept mod with such implementation. again, i am not really interested in custom HUD support, so it is unfinished, and unpublished. i just wrote a poc, and left it as that.
as for zscript detection — it works exactly as designed. if there is ZSCRIPT lump, the mod won't be loaded. there is simply no way to know if zscript is a simple eye-candy, or if it is vital for mod mechanics, so i decided to simply reject such mods. my stance is that if people want to support ports w/o zscript, they'd better make a "base pk3" without zscript, and supply additional "gzdoom support pk3" with zscript for gzdoom.
MODELDEF parser is a hack, and it always was a hack. the way Vavoom/k8vavoom defines models is very different from what GZDoom does, so sometimes conversion fails. also, GZDoom tend to ignore errors in MODELDEF (as it does for most errors anywhere).
Strange Aeons is definitely working OK, because this is one of my favorite wads to play time to time. ;-)
if you'll provide links to non-working mods, i'll check them, of course. sometimes they could be made working by adding a small missing feature, or implementing an easy workaround.
and one last note: MBF21 support is completely tangential to ZDoom compatibility. especially considering the fact that complete ZDoom compatibility is not something i want to achieve. ;-)
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2023 12:31:14 GMT -5
Doom 64 portion of Kinsie's Consolation Prize also doesn't boot and complains about MAPINFO syntax(Script error at D:\DoomGreyFilesMkIII\Geimus\Fucking Doom\k8vavoom\con_doom64-1.5.pk3:mapinfo.txt:647: Invalid command '=') even though everything looks fine. Could it be it just misinterpreted the curly brackets for something else(Warning: MAPINFO:D:\DoomGreyFilesMkIII\Geimus\Fucking Doom\k8vavoom\con_doom64-1.5.pk3:mapinfo.txt:644: Unimplemented flag '{') and then it snowballed into whatever happened? MAPINFO (I believe ZMAPINFO is better about this) is very sloppy about '=' and the brackets; in most places those are optional. I remember having to make our parser check for and consume those tokens if present just to prevent throwing the same errors. I believe the only place curly braces are absolutely required is when defining a custom endgame block. |
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Lobo
Doomer
Posts: 594
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Post by Lobo on Jul 19, 2023 12:16:16 GMT -5
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tdrr
Doomer
Posts: 68
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Post by tdrr on Jul 19, 2023 12:20:55 GMT -5
That is hilarious! Janis never stops impressing does he? :p
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Post by ketmar on Jul 19, 2023 12:57:43 GMT -5
dammit! and i thought that it was my Great Invention…
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Post by camper on Jul 19, 2023 13:14:19 GMT -5
Convergence is inevitable. |
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Lobo
Doomer
Posts: 594
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Post by Lobo on Jul 19, 2023 13:16:10 GMT -5
Make us whole.
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Post by ketmar on Jul 19, 2023 13:18:10 GMT -5
We are the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technologican distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile.
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Post by camper on Jul 20, 2023 4:32:16 GMT -5
We are the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technologican distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile. I in the sense that Sakharov understood |
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Post by daedolis on Jul 20, 2023 22:02:34 GMT -5
Forgive my ignorance: I pretty much do all my mapping in UDMF, and it seems like a pretty powerful and flexible format to me. What would MBF21 bring that UDMF doesn't have?
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tdrr
Doomer
Posts: 68
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Post by tdrr on Jul 20, 2023 22:36:50 GMT -5
Nothing of value. The only things it adds (and that to top it off you can trivially recreate with scripts) is a damaging floor type that can kill grounded monsters, and flags for those damaging floors to kill the player and exit the map.
Yes, that's really about it.
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Lobo
Doomer
Posts: 594
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Post by Lobo on Jul 21, 2023 0:11:10 GMT -5
Forgive my ignorance: I pretty much do all my mapping in UDMF, and it seems like a pretty powerful and flexible format to me. What would MBF21 bring that UDMF doesn't have? Your map will at least load in a lot more ports. UDMF is not as widespread nor universal as people would have you believe. |
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Post by ketmar on Jul 21, 2023 4:22:49 GMT -5
yep. with Boom format and MBF21 your maps will work in various ports of "vanilla kind". dunno if this is really something you need, because i bet that UDMF also means at least freelook and no infititely tall monsters.
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SilverMiner
You're trying to say you like DOS better than me, right?
Posts: 1,344
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Post by SilverMiner on Jul 21, 2023 5:24:50 GMT -5
Формат карты никого не обязывает юзать или не юзать какие-то геймплейные фичи
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Post by daedolis on Jul 21, 2023 7:19:45 GMT -5
I see, thanks! Actually I usually mainly use GZDoom, so vanilla support isn't really a big concern for me, though I'd like to make some maps specifically for k8vavoom someday.
The lighting and improved polyobjects looks especially fun to play with - I doubt Graf will ever implement PO's with top and bottom textures.
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Post by ketmar on Jul 21, 2023 7:19:54 GMT -5
yet there is a little reason to use UDMF if not targeting an advanced port. everything else is mostly the same.
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Post by ketmar on Jul 21, 2023 7:24:21 GMT -5
though I'd like to make some maps specifically for k8vavoom someday. basically, if you're not using portals (and mirrors, because mirrors are broken in k8v), and prefer DECORATE to ZScript, your maps should Just Work in k8vavoom. so for most cases you can have your cake and eat it too. ;-) of course, i'll be glad to see maps designed specifically for k8v lighting, and with 3d pobjs, especially if there will be some interesting gamplay built around those features. ;-) |
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Post by daedolis on Jul 21, 2023 8:27:21 GMT -5
Yeah, that's the thing, I love and use portals a lot, even portals on polyobjects. It allows for a lot of cool things that're just not possible otherwise.
But I could probably tear myself away from them just for a bit. Maybe. 😅
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Post by ketmar on Jul 21, 2023 8:37:38 GMT -5
sometimes you can get away with Boom "silent teleport" line action. at least this will allow you to build "strange geometries".
just in case: mirrors will eventually be fixed, but i have no plans to support portals. ;-)
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Post by camper on Jul 21, 2023 11:07:33 GMT -5
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