tdrr
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Post by tdrr on Dec 27, 2022 0:54:47 GMT -5
With the deferred renderer coming up, I'd guess not
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Post by ketmar on Dec 27, 2022 1:27:11 GMT -5
I would still love to have configurable, distance based voxel to sprite switcher, but sadly ketmar is more confident in his optimization capabilities XD. It would also probably complicate lot of stuff internally. Maybe one day. a little secret: most such optimisation things are added when i expirience slowdowns and they can fix it. but never say never. ;-) ketmar , I know I've asked before at some point but maybe something has changed.. Do you have plans to ever add PBR support? nope, nothing was changed. the only thing that may make me reconsider it is pbr pack for all standard textures, with the quality of Cheello voxels. if that will look good…
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Post by 3t0 on Dec 27, 2022 12:01:05 GMT -5
ketmar, I know I've asked before at some point but maybe something has changed.. Do you have plans to ever add PBR support? I think the main issue here is that PBR does not fit ketmar's intended esthetics for k8v.
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Post by ketmar on Dec 27, 2022 12:08:21 GMT -5
it may fit, but there is no such pack so far. so i don't see any reason to invest my time in that feature.
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tdrr
Doomer
Posts: 63
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Post by tdrr on Dec 27, 2022 12:30:47 GMT -5
Why not normal + spec instead? Unless the renderer has things like actually functional reflections, PBR will look like normal + spec but with extra steps at best. It's 100% wasted effort in GZDoom because it doesn't look even halfway accurate.
And there is a pack for Doom 1 PBR using the original textures and resolution. It looks fairly decent if not for GZDoom's shortcomings with PBR. It's not 100% complete but almost all of Doom 1 is there.
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Mr.Rocket
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Post by Mr.Rocket on Dec 28, 2022 3:24:16 GMT -5
it may fit, but there is no such pack so far. so i don't see any reason to invest my time in that feature. I'll make a pack or pk3 or directory structure, if it will work for you. walls, floors, and applied to models.. There's not really much to it on the side of "user end". a lot like Doom3, 2 texture images, normal, and spec. wrote up in a script to be applied to the given diffuse texture name. the magic is in your hands on the side of how it's all handled though. heh, i wouldn't know where to start.. All I could figure is that it works sort of like brightmaps in a since. well, other than telling triangles to stand up? ~ I'm kind of with tdrr on the side of not having (to have) as much to work with. we don't really need the full spectrum of PRB, mainly the normal and specular shine, with these 2 textures, different parts of a texture can have a shine or not, if wanted.
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Post by ketmar on Dec 28, 2022 4:40:38 GMT -5
i mean, i need a full pack, ready to use, and looking awesome. then i may want to implement support for it, to enjoy such a great visuals. sadly, everything i've seen so far (for GZDoom) looks like shit. either simple shit, or plastic shit. ;-)
i.e. "just a demo" won't work: to implement this feature, i need to throw away current texture manager, and current renderer, and basicaly rewrite them from the scratch. i won't do it until i'll be absolutely sure that there is already something i can use with them, and it's not a demo that will never go further. sorry. it's just too much work for "maybe sometime…", and my time and resources are very limited now…
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tdrr
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Post by tdrr on Dec 28, 2022 11:20:07 GMT -5
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Post by ketmar on Dec 28, 2022 13:54:56 GMT -5
not impressed. ;-) it won't look even half-good without texture filtering, and with texture filtering, Doom looks like shit regardless of PBR packs. ;-)
but i'll take a look, thank you!
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tdrr
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Post by tdrr on Dec 28, 2022 15:18:33 GMT -5
Yeah that's fair. It's not great, but it's at least not as tasteless as the others I've seen.
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Mr.Rocket
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Post by Mr.Rocket on Dec 28, 2022 15:28:32 GMT -5
Well, the idea and as far as I understand is that the material effect was to be implemented for actual new textures etc and the intention was never to use the effect with stock Doom textures, otherwise you'll end up with shiny pixelated textures, which no one wants. As far as I recall this was dpJudas thoughts, and why it was implemented in Gzdoom. For custom projects and not to try to make the original game look better.
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Post by 3t0 on Jan 14, 2023 13:11:24 GMT -5
It's some time since I dabbed into texturing (I used to play with it when there was diffuse/specular/bump model only (3DS MAX - and had access mostly to final render), but normal maps were not invented yet - Doom 3 - bought that into mainstream). I gave up later, because I have not yet found "good" normal map generator for Linux - is there even such a thing these days? In the days of Doom 3, I read you have to make hyper detailed model (in Doom they used mostly Z-Brush) and bake it through very complicated transform gizmo (basically low-res model mesh) into model and UVW space of the target low-poly model - and I haven't found any usable software in OSS space to do that back then. If anybody knows about such tools from later, that work now and are usable I would be really interested in checking it out. But I have 3D artists friends - and from what I gathered by talking with them, PBR is an actual "revolution" in film industry and 3d graphics because it "disconnects" materials form their presentation. In fact with what I gathered is that diffuse/specular/bump model you needed specially tuned version of a same material for each usage occasion: normal dry, normal wet, specific night, specific sunset etc. As far as I understand there was no possibility of "globally" changing environment parameters before that - if you wanted a wet, rainy scene in a game or a movie, you had to actually make completely two different scenes, complete with different materials for each. If there was any theory on how to make materials look wetter or drier it was by algorithmic hacks - and artists always did better work manually anyway. It was thus also costly to have scenes with changing external parameters - you had to make them as many times as you changed external paramaters in the scene. Now as I understand with PBR, the diffuse/specular/bump model is immediately obsoleted and changed into two separate material submodels: dielectric material and metal material. Metals are weird (have no direct color) and shiny and dielectric is everything else that is not metal. Now if I understood it right, with PBR mats you can easily change material behavior in the scene (like "wetness") externally (like from global scene properties parameters) through "simple" and well understood algorithmic processes. That is how it was explained to me by actual artists doing architectural/design visualizations, music videos, and stuff like that. However my question remains: is this intepretation true? Besides looking better at all situations (golden dawn, rain, night), it makes most sense in a game with day and night, dry and rain/wet cycles like GTA/open world RPG or something, so why is literally everybody jumping on the bandwagon (it's literally everybody: archviz, movies, games) - reusability of material creation skills and material reusability overall? Or what. I admit some youtube videos of it in GZDoom look impressive - but it seems tuning intuition in material creators in not there yet: as ketmar said most of it really looks like overly shiny plastic. Finally what are all the map channels then now, when diffuse/specular/bump is not a thing anymore? Does each sub material have their own maps now? If so which ones? I guess metals don't have diffuse? Also can you go from metallic to dielectric and back?
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Post by camper on Jan 26, 2023 16:38:21 GMT -5
He did violence to himself and began to collect a single ipk3 without the resources of the original doom, only using MyStandaloneGame.ipk3, LEST.wad and cheeki.pk3. I pulled out all the resources from wad and sorted them into folders, as required by k8v. Surprisingly, all the textures and objects are in their places. There is still work to be done, but the test build is close. Interestingly, I tried it on gzdoom and it turned out that there were no objects on the map. Ketmar, What about electricity? I know this question is a bit idiotic when my country started a war. I abstracted a little from this, otherwise I can go crazy. But "war is war, but lunch is on schedule" as they say in our countries. And I'm waiting for a new build to try without the boot wad.
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Post by ketmar on Jan 27, 2023 0:51:32 GMT -5
ah, it's ok to ask questions. ;-) i'm trying to dive into code for same reasons.
right now the power is… let's say "scarce", and i have some things to do, so i simply don't have enough time to make some final touches for the build. still, i'm planning to push it out in march (i hope! ;-). sorry for delays, and for "radio silence mode".
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Post by camper on Jan 29, 2023 15:05:32 GMT -5
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SilverMiner
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recording videos of gameplay is a speculation on content, not its creation
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Post by SilverMiner on Feb 2, 2023 6:48:34 GMT -5
which GZDB config should I use when mapping for k8vavoom?
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Post by ketmar on Feb 2, 2023 9:49:55 GMT -5
sorry, i haven't the slightest idea, i'm not using GZDB, nor even able to run it. but i guess that ZDoom should be ok, 'cause k8v supports almost all ZDoom features. maybe even GZDoom, just don't use portals. k8v fully supports Doom-in-Hexen, and UDMF (almost fully), so you can use those formats if you want to. you can also skip building nodes, because k8v is not using prebuilt nodes anyway.
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SilverMiner
Doomer
recording videos of gameplay is a speculation on content, not its creation
Posts: 965
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Post by SilverMiner on Feb 2, 2023 10:03:02 GMT -5
What do you use to build maps if not gzdb?
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Post by ketmar on Feb 2, 2023 11:41:10 GMT -5
Eureka (my own private fork).
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Post by 3t0 on Feb 2, 2023 21:45:17 GMT -5
ketmar, does you eureka do 3D floors? I once compiled it (upstream) and it worked kinda well, and I think I somehow got 3D floors running (it depends on gamemode selector? not sure), but it was nowhere near as "pleasant" as UDB. On the other hand UDB is a monster. which GZDB config should I use when mapping for k8vavoom? Are you on linux? And have you tried ultimate doom builder? Most doom builders have few vavoom special things in definitions, or you can try editing their game definitions, if you are missing something. In my experiments stock UDB with zdoom in udmf format and even gzstyle 3D floors worked pretty well (at least they showed up).
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SilverMiner
Doomer
recording videos of gameplay is a speculation on content, not its creation
Posts: 965
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Post by SilverMiner on Feb 3, 2023 4:19:32 GMT -5
I'm on win7 x64 with gzdb 1.14 I seem to have the mentioned configs
Yes, I had tried udb and I couldn't get used to it cuz of some handy feature removed as a bug. I requested it back two years ago and it resulted in a fuckoff from boris
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Post by ketmar on Feb 3, 2023 4:57:39 GMT -5
ketmar, does you eureka do 3D floors? Andrew added that feature, but Eureka with the latest additions was never released. and i don't like the direction "Eureka continuation" took, so i forked from the Andrew's repo. yep, you still have to do 3d floors "the old way", no helper tools are available. but i'm not really fond of 3d floors anyway, so it's not a big limitation for me. ;-)
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Post by camper on Feb 3, 2023 10:36:24 GMT -5
Aardappel made a map editing language for doom (https://strlen.com/wadc-editor/). For some reason I got the impression that he probably made a cubeengine for a 2.5D editor, but then "something went wrong" and it turned into a separate engine. It is a pity that there is no converter from the map for the cubeengine 1 format to udmf.
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tdrr
Doomer
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Post by tdrr on Feb 3, 2023 14:01:14 GMT -5
I'd also recommend trying out Doom Builder X. It has a GZDoom 3D view mode where you can see 3D floors, slopes and all that stuff. It's a bit more primitive but certainly way more stable than UDB.
Eureka is also nice and I'd honestly put down the time to fully understand it's controls if it supported UDMF, since it's the only editor besides SLADE (which I wouldn't ever use anyway because wxWidgets) you can compile on Linux natively. But sadly it only goes up to Hexen format.
EDIT: And on the topic of 3D floors. printz made a Half-Life MAP to WAD converter, which has it's source released but I've never been able to compile because it apparently does require that same Bloodshed Dev-C++ version, it just doesn't compile any other way. Gooberman was working on a much better and more promising BSP2Doom, which even converted the lightmaps over (inefficiently, but it did). Would be very nice to have something like that now, making 3D floor-filled maps would be so much simpler.
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Post by ketmar on Feb 4, 2023 2:30:27 GMT -5
Eureka is also nice and I'd honestly put down the time to fully understand it's controls if it supported UDMF, since it's the only editor besides SLADE (which I wouldn't ever use anyway because wxWidgets) you can compile on Linux natively. But sadly it only goes up to Hexen format. Eureka has some UDMF support (mostly reading, a little of writing). Andrew started doing it just before stepping away from the project. i worked on it a little more (and on Doom ↔ Doom-in-Hexen in-editor conversion), but as i'm not doing a lot of maps, it doesn't have a high priority. maybe someday i'll finish it. ;-) Would be very nice to have something like that now, making 3D floor-filled maps would be so much simpler. converting "real 3d maps" is very inefficient. it's fun to have it as a PoC, but i don't think that it is the right tool for everyday use. i have some ideas of "layered editing", tho. i mean, you draw each 3d floor as a separate map part, put the anchor, and the editor exports everything with proper sector subdivisions. i.e. just draw it separately, and let the editor do the rest. but the idea needs some more work to flesh out. maybe one day i'll implement it in Eureka too. ;-)
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