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Post by marriagecounselor on Aug 3, 2020 1:14:20 GMT -5
This question is geared towards map makers but if you are a player and have an opinion I'm not gonna say no.
When you make a wad, do you prefer to have MAP01 be a sink or swim trial by fire, or do you prefer making MAP01 easy and gradually ramp the difficulty throughout the wad (like Scythe)?
Personally I think the trial by fire method is the best.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2020 2:05:08 GMT -5
Hard to say now that I've participated in playtesting DBP maps, I've really come to enjoy breathers as they encourage you to playtest more, as opposed to hard stuff, which often inclines you to catch a break from testing. And when you do both back-to-back, you are like "well, I should really think if I am going to make effort to test another one" and then like "oh my, testing it is such a joy, I shouldn't have delayed that! If only I knew ahead of time how much fun it will be!"
But for my pre-DBP self, the answer was "trial by fire", indeed. Because when I am searching for a set to play, I want to estimate whether it is my thing or not, so I prefer that first map reveals what kind of set I am playing so I can either stick to it or choose another. When the set starts easy and then ramps up, I often feel betrayed, because I thought I was playing "the thing" and enjoyed it, and think I've found the right kind of set, only for it to show its true face in the very next map past the one I considered it to be my "thing", and leave with such hard feelings I want to punch a stone wall. Also, I should say that at the time I often worked overtime, and almost always went to play doom with the purpose to relax and leave behind the hard feelings that arose from work, and was definitely not intending to test my skill and definitely not challenge myself. It is usually on vacations that I played slaughtermaps and such.
My experience as a map maker is not much, but I should say that it is good to be flexible. In my personal project, I think, I will go for "trial by fire" method, but for DBPs, as they can be edited by project managers, the best thing to me seems is not going hard on controlling player experience, for such a short deadline you are bound to not have time to perfect gameplay. A curve is justified as an approach that lets you keep sanity, and also as a chance that some players will be able to try the theme without necessary going to the very end. It is actually hard to make a proper "trial by fire" that ensures that players who survived it are bound not to be disappointed with the following maps. Sunder managed to have the best of both worlds: a trial by fire start (for sure there are enough players who are detracted by the very first map) and also a difficulty curve throughout the levels.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2020 2:45:09 GMT -5
I prefer making the MAP01s relatively easy and gradually ramping up. I don't like my first encounter being the unholy trinity of archviles, revenants, and chaingunners. I think about making MAP01s that even people new to Doom and are a stranger to its more subtler mechanics will find intuitive and enjoyable to explore and combat in (for example I make sure every gap and can be traveled across by running straight ahead with no need for an SR50). I use Doom mapping as practice for good game design in general as I find level design a skill worth building upon and a satisfying one too (maybe I can be a dungeon master for real one day with physically tangible labyrinths and arenas, heh). What I really like about The Abyss' MAP01 is the whole "leading a mouse to cheese" aspect of it, and the pinky punching too of course.
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dmdr
Doomer
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Post by dmdr on Aug 3, 2020 4:41:30 GMT -5
basically what cuppy said. Plus generally if you get fucked in map01 you'll assume it's going to get even worse as it goes along which can discourage continuing with the wad.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2020 7:33:50 GMT -5
There is also a third option: make a wad that stays easy throughout (for a change). In the end, someone might appreciate it - remember there are more doomers overall than there are doomers that actually register on some kind of forums.
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Aug 3, 2020 9:09:28 GMT -5
I like when the difficulty has a gradual difficulty curve that increases as you progress in theory(!) However I think marriagecounselor is bringing up a good point of contention. There are plenty times, particularly in community projects, where the early maps set up false expectations for what the rest of the wad will play like. A lot of community wads have really easy maps for the first 5 maps or so, and then afterwards start to get really rugged gameplay wise, finishing with some crazy-murderous and unfairly hard slaughter maps that don't feel like they belong. I also like that @vigilantdoomer is making the reminder that there are a shocking number of doom fans that actively play but have little to no engagement with the community. There is a bit of an oversaturation of new challenge maps, which is why more recently I tend to give my maps double the health and ammo I normally would at the level of difficulty I would play them in.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2020 11:32:12 GMT -5
Gradual difficulty curve makes more sense when the player is playing Doom for the first time. You can't force a newbie to dodge mancubus fireballs and homing revenant rockets from the get go, so you start with simple zombies and imps to teach them basic mechanics. But an experienced doomer is already well accustomed to the game and doesn't need to be taught anything, so you can safely skip the warm-up stage and immediately give the player a taste of what your wad is like.
I'm not saying that you should definitely put arch-viles, cyberdemons and slaughterish encounters in the very first map: I think it can still be good to introduce various gameplay elements gradually, as that helps with establishing a sense of progression and makes different parts of the wad stand out. But if you intend to create a challenging wad, even the early "shotguns and imps" levels need to have some teeth and nasty surprises so that they don't seem underwhelming and out of place.
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Lobo
Doomer
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Post by Lobo on Aug 3, 2020 13:07:46 GMT -5
There is also a third option: make a wad that stays easy throughout (for a change). In the end, someone might appreciate it This is me! A lot of times I just want to sightsee, appreciate the geometry. I'll tell y'all the truth: most DBPs I'm playing on invincible. Yeah, I'm a pussy 😂
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dn
Body Count: 02
the motherfucking darknation
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Post by dn on Aug 3, 2020 13:25:54 GMT -5
Don't care so long as it's short. You need a quick win to amp yourself up before the inevitable trillion-linedef slog.
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joe-ilya
Hey, Ron! Can we say 'fuck' in the game?
a simple word, a simple turd
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Post by joe-ilya on Aug 3, 2020 13:55:22 GMT -5
I don't mind what size MAP01 is, it doesn't mean anything regarding quality and length for future maps, some of the most popular wads have inconsistently sized MAP01s, so a general audience isn't at risk regarding MAP01s.
Ancient Aliens has a short but tough map, with demanding knowledge of the cyber. Alien Vendetta has one of the most confusing MAP01s ever, I couldn't beat it when I first started playing custom Doom maps. The Scythe series has very short and easy MAP01s, yet it's as popular as Alien Vendetta.
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Post by marriagecounselor on Aug 4, 2020 14:38:02 GMT -5
There is also a third option: make a wad that stays easy throughout (for a change). In the end, someone might appreciate it This is me! A lot of times I just want to sightsee, appreciate the geometry. I'll tell y'all the truth: most DBPs I'm playing on invincible. Yeah, I'm a pussy 😂 have confidence in yourself
and goddamn confusing maps are obnoxious... f looking for where to go for 5 minutes, seriously.
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Post by morpheuskitami on Aug 4, 2020 19:19:50 GMT -5
Map 01 should always be simple, easy, but introducing key concepts you plan on reusing throughout the wad. Like Lemmings, but less squishy small things.
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Uni
I'm too young to die
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Post by Uni on Aug 18, 2020 9:42:50 GMT -5
Easy, simple and straightforward. I think it's important to make a good first impression and let the first map set some sort of tone, while the following maps can be more focused on the difficulty curve.
I do like when a MAP01 is on the surface simple and short, but with secret optional areas it becomes bigger and more complexed. I actually recently tried that with my own "Entryway" inspired MAP01 and I am pleased with the outcome. If you head straight to the exit it's extremely short but if you explore a bit, it becomes a littke bit more expensive.
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Aug 18, 2020 10:23:06 GMT -5
Uni thats a really cool concept I want to explore too! A good model for this imo is the design of MAP01 for No Rest for the Living. Its mostly imps, zombies and pinky demons with a couple tough monsters in it, but if you crack open the secret paths you start bringing in revenants and pain elementals into the main non-secret layout and the map becomes much larger. Id definitely like to check out your map if/when its finished!
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Uni
I'm too young to die
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Post by Uni on Aug 18, 2020 14:33:35 GMT -5
Yeah it's basically finished editing-wise. I just don't know what to actually do with it since I don't have ideas for my own mapset and I don't know if it can be part of something with other folks. That's why I didn't put monsters in it yet since I don't know where it's going to end up in. It's fairly simple and I already planned the basic gameplay elements but I'm not sure what items and weapons would end up in the map.
I could definitely share it with you if you like to take a peek and tell me what you think about it. It's been a while since I made something, even though it's just a small MAP01 stuff.
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Aug 18, 2020 15:56:25 GMT -5
Sure! Post it in Mapping Workshop (to use the file attachment feature on this forum) or you can link it to me in a private message, I can give you some notes. Always happy to help out a mapper
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