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Post by hardcoregamer on Oct 8, 2018 17:03:26 GMT -5
The idea is that you can use photoshop to quickly and easily create map blueprints sort of like drawing it on paper but much more easily and in a precise way that can be easily translated into real levels in the editor. It can be used when planning both Doom and Quake maps. The design is still in the early stages and so far only about a dozen or so icons have been made. There is also a grid who's size can be increased or decreased just like in Doom builder/Trenchbroom via layers. Is there any interest for this?
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joe-ilya
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Post by joe-ilya on Oct 9, 2018 0:31:18 GMT -5
You could, but why? Why would you make a Doom Builder without features version?
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Post by hardcoregamer on Oct 9, 2018 8:53:44 GMT -5
You could, but why? Why would you make a Doom Builder without features version?
It's for both Doom and Quake, the later of which requires brush based editing which is slower to use.
Simply put it's simply faster to sketch out layouts quickly in photoshop than actually making it all by hand in the actual editors, largely because it spares you from having to worry about all the technical details when making anything complex. Instead you can just place a simple icon. John Romero sketched out many of his maps on paper before making them for this very reason. I would also argue that these kinds of blueprints are easier to read than the raw and often confusing looking final result inside the editors.
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Justince
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Post by Justince on Oct 9, 2018 11:20:45 GMT -5
I'm not sure I get it. Aren't you making twice the work of simply putting the map into a functional editor? You sort of make it sound like this thing can export/import line data into an editor. If not, I don't really see how this is any better than a piece of paper. You could probably blot out on paper much faster anyway. Without the 'technical details' like sector light levels or floor/ceiling heights or even a note of texture themes, most people will quickly forget all but the most basic elements of their map. I can't imagine using this for Quake, it would be a clusterfuck of lines within minutes of mapping out any 3d space and being unable to rotate or manipulate it.
I heard of Romero drawing out some of this levels, but is this really done today with modern editors being so damn easy to use? I mean 3d-mode is the pretty much as simple as it gets for visualizing your layout.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2018 11:54:06 GMT -5
I still find it a lot easier to map when I draw it on paper first.
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Post by hardcoregamer on Oct 9, 2018 13:24:32 GMT -5
I'm not sure I get it. Aren't you making twice the work of simply putting the map into a functional editor? You sort of make it sound like this thing can export/import line data into an editor. If not, I don't really see how this is any better than a piece of paper. You could probably blot out on paper much faster anyway. Without the 'technical details' like sector light levels or floor/ceiling heights or even a note of texture themes, most people will quickly forget all but the most basic elements of their map. I can't imagine using this for Quake, it would be a clusterfuck of lines within minutes of mapping out any 3d space and being unable to rotate or manipulate it. I heard of Romero drawing out some of this levels, but is this really done today with modern editors being so damn easy to use? I mean 3d-mode is the pretty much as simple as it gets for visualizing your layout.
You aren't suppose to create any of the complex details, only the layouts and the items that are important to gameplay. And yes, this is much faster than making things in Doom builder or Trenchbroom.
Example:
To create a door in doom builder:
1. Create 4 lines 2. Set up the linedef properties 3. Set up the sector properties 4. Texture the door
While prototyping bluerprints:
1. You select the door brush and place the door.
Another example is how this is faster is that you don't have to create any complex geo. Look at the red icons on the picture that show where stairs and slopes are for example.
And the reason this can also be used for Quake is that there are transparent layers that can be used to simulate height.
I find it kind of odd how you can't see how prototyping map concepts is much faster via drawing than creating actual levels.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2018 14:56:28 GMT -5
It’s not faster because there’s much more to mapping than drawing some lines. Obviously writing down ideas or sketching loose plans on paper helps keeps things orderly and focused, but your real slowdown happens inside the editor making it all work in the Doom world. This just seems unnecessary and you’d be better off making some maps of your own with your time. Do that instead.
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Post by hardcoregamer on Oct 9, 2018 15:16:57 GMT -5
It’s not faster because there’s much more to mapping than drawing some lines. Obviously writing down ideas or sketching loose plans on paper helps keeps things orderly and focused, but your real slowdown happens inside the editor making it all work in the Doom world. This just seems unnecessary and you’d be better off making some maps of your own with your time. Do that instead.
You guys still don't seem to understand the point of this. The idea isn't that you actually design the entire map in photoshop. The idea is that you are SKETCHING the basic layouts, which IS faster than doing the same thing in Trenchbroom or even Doom builder. Obviously once you start actually making the real map, you will have to add things that aren't in the actual bluerprint like detail, sector logic (or triggers in case of Quake) etc.
But if you don't feel you have any need for such a tool and you feel comfortable just making everything in the editor right away, then that's cool. I just posted this in case there were other likeminded people who approch mapping in a similar way to myself.
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Justince
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Post by Justince on Oct 9, 2018 16:28:48 GMT -5
Ok I wasn't fully understanding your explanation. It makes more sense as a map sratchpad type thing.
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Post by bigolbilly on Oct 9, 2018 17:51:56 GMT -5
This looks kinda interesting. I guess what I don't understand is the advantage over traditional (pencil & paper) sketching. I've sketched most of my maps (and all of my best, tbh) by hand with pencil and paper, and I've started to develop some personal system of notating encounters, keys, setpieces, etc. If we're just talking layout sketching, what can a piece of software provide over and above the idiosyncratic sketching systems that people like me have in their current mapping workflows?
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Post by hardcoregamer on Oct 9, 2018 18:34:52 GMT -5
This looks kinda interesting. I guess what I don't understand is the advantage over traditional (pencil & paper) sketching. I've sketched most of my maps (and all of my best, tbh) by hand with pencil and paper, and I've started to develop some personal system of notating encounters, keys, setpieces, etc. If we're just talking layout sketching, what can a piece of software provide over and above the idiosyncratic sketching systems that people like me have in their current mapping workflows? There are 5 major advantages vs just drawing on paper:
1. The grids (there are currently 3 which can be enabled or disabled via layers, 64, 32, and 16) allow you to create sketches that are the exact correct proportions so there are no problems when translating the sketch into an actual real map. This is not the case when drawing via pen and paper.
2. Massive drawing area. The document being used to draw the map on is like 8kx8X resolution so you are very unlikely to ever run out of drawing space. This is not the case when drawing with a normal piece of paper, unless you are using a very massive one for some reason. Which you probably aren't.
3. Organization is much easier since different types of icons are kept on different layers which can be enabled or disabled. Let's say for example that things are starting to get cluttered and you only want to see icons describing level geo but not monsters or pickups. Or you only want to see pickups but not monsters. You can. This is not possible via conventional drawing.
4. It's simply much faster because each type of icon exists in the form of a pre-defined brush which can be colored coded at will, so there is no need to draw everything over and over like you would via a piece of paper.
5. Transparent layers dedicated to 3D geo allow you to easily create things like bridges or other forms of 3D stuff without losing the ability to see what's under it. This makes it much easier to create 3D effects than via pen and paper. You can see an example of this with the bridge area on the screenpost posted on the first post.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2018 20:30:13 GMT -5
Not to try and put you off creating something you think is cool and useful, but I don't think anybody who sketches their plans on paper do it with the almost exact scale that it will be in editor, nor place all of their "things" on said paper. When I've done it and from pics of seen of others doing it, it's more rough sketching and outlines of architecture or navigation and notes such as "big fight here" or "cross line here and activate that door over there." It appears like this program will create double the work from what you're saying.
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