dn
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Post by dn on Jul 29, 2018 11:20:42 GMT -5
Close combat sucks in doom. Collating thoughts on how to make swords / close combat not suck in a mod.
1) Shields. Two button combat system: one that attacks, the other that blocks. Zelda 2 for inspiration.
2) Timing is key. Have the other sprite let down its guard for only one or two keyframes during its own attack animation - this is the only point at which a strike from the player would be successful: this should mean that there will be a back & forth of attack / defend during combat, at least until the plater Gets Gud / learns keyframes.
3) Stab them in the back = no chance of defense. This also applies to the player, meaning you simply could not afford to become encircled.
4) Same for missile attacks: you can block, say, crossbow bolts from the front, but getting shot in the ass is bad news. Missile troops have no block = choose target priority for the player.
5) Different melee weapons attack at different speed. E.g; a mace would move slower - fucking up the player's timing for hitting on the keyframe - but do more damage. A two-handed warhammer, in addition to being slow, would ignore shields *but* you can't block yourself while using it. Strategy!
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Justince
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Post by Justince on Jul 29, 2018 11:51:45 GMT -5
Interesting, making the threat level high enough would avoid the rather sloggy gameplay you find in Hexen. Although fun for the most part, running to those shielded centaurs slows everything down. Unless the player movement is heavily tweaked, everyone would go with the two handed weapons to avoid any hitch in smashing everything and still able to move fast enough to avoid any hits on themselves.
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dn
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the motherfucking darknation
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Post by dn on Jul 29, 2018 12:11:29 GMT -5
Interesting, making the threat level high enough would avoid the rather sloggy gameplay you find in Hexen. Although fun for the most part, running to those shielded centaurs slows everything down. Unless the player movement is heavily tweaked, everyone would go with the two handed weapons to avoid any hitch in smashing everything and still able to move fast enough to avoid any hits on themselves. Ok, let's say if there was knockback from hits... then that means you'd probably miss with the two handed weapon if you took a hit first.
Also if the two handed weapon was late game this sort of thing is less of a problem. Another reason I'd really want them in (aside from giving the player a choice of how to tackle a problem) would be to block off certain areas of the map until you got a certain weapon. Couple of enemies guarding a certain room are pretty much immune to normal weapons (made of stone, armoured like a tank, whatever...) and can only really be taken down with a sledgehammer. Anything to avoid another fucking doom keyhunt.
Just posting this so people can see what I mean about the keyframe shit... in this animation, there is only a couple of frames where the dorf is vulnerable with the shield down. Hit him when it's not and it goes to the block animation instead.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2018 12:29:52 GMT -5
How about attempting to implement a dodge mechanic? If the player speed isn't high enough to reliably evade attacks then you could try having a button prompt (inelegently) propel the player in a direction or (glitchily) teleport the player to the side, granted this would probably be complete dogshit if not perfected down to the smallest measurements (and not to mention useless unless brief invulnerability isn't implemented too) and would look completely ridiculous too.
If you're character is more of a bulwark styled man slapper however, perhaps riposte and countering could be implemented where hitting an enemy pre attack will cancel their attack and leave them open for a brief time... Which I'm sure has it's very own balancing issues such as having it not juggle everything into oblivion and not having it require the timing of a god to perform (unless you'd like that reward for skill).
Speaking of repostes, perhaps successful flicks on projectiles could send them back the other way very pissed off at what you were looking at.
Well, I wish I could be more helpful but I have no idea how I'd implement any of these ideas myself so uh, good luck!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2018 12:31:47 GMT -5
I know you didn’t play KdizD, but the lion monster with the shield was heavily criticised for a reason. It’s a tough ask to make melee play work in Doom, especially against shielded monsters. Take a look at recent release REKKR for example, there is an axe weapon that you use that looks dope as fuck but is the drizzling shits to use. Actually a bunch of the weapons you’re talking about are used in it, check REKKR out for more research.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2018 12:44:32 GMT -5
I think in Hexen these centaurs block you even if you're hitting them from behind since there is no actual shield, the monster simply becomes invincible for a while. It might be difficult to make the game understand the difference between front and back sides of an actor. Maybe you could make a script that spawns an invisible solid object in front of the shield user...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2018 0:38:32 GMT -5
If you're looking for a formula to make melee/close combat fun and practical in Doom, perhaps it might help to call out some examples of well-executed melee/close combat in other FPS games. People in this thread seem to be in agreement that Hexen melee attacking isn't that cool, but so far no one has voiced an FPS that really nails close combat and makes it enjoyable.
Admittedly, I might not be much help here either. The only games that come to my mind are The Chronicles of Riddick and Shadow Warrior(the new one, not the 3D realms game). Those two had pretty good melee and sword battles. But I do think that it's universally understood that the FPS genre isn't well-suited to melee gameplay.
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joe-ilya
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Post by joe-ilya on Jul 30, 2018 2:15:42 GMT -5
Melee is more fun and reliable in ZDoom.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2018 3:01:16 GMT -5
The best melee I've ever seen done in Doom was in Xaser's Zen Dynamics for ZDoom. He took inspiration from Devil May Cry to do a combo system using one button and delays, then added a deflective shield secondary action, all on the machete weapon. I studied that to work out how to get Justice to work in my own maps featuring it. The real problem in Doom melee isn't the weapons, really, but the enemies. They don't react right. You need them to try and block some attacks (but not like the Centaur in HeXen, which is what the Realm667 Hell Guards emulate in stuff like KDiZD), or be susceptible to counter attacks. I think using inventory tokens, you can do stuff like script in extra sequences where enemies are staggered when hit on the counter, or take extra damage when they're wide open mid-attack. |
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Post by thundercunt on Jan 2, 2019 18:43:29 GMT -5
basically dark souls doom
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