40oz
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Post by 40oz on Jul 19, 2018 9:16:45 GMT -5
So there are some masochist players out there who insist that platform jumping (as in running across pillars and jumping from ledge to ledge) is awesome -- the more precarious the better. There are others who hate the fuck out of it and say platforming doesn't belong in Doom. I'm not sure how I feel about it. I can get across most gaps except for sr50-required ones because ive never configured my controls in a way where i can practice it. I also have a pretty good feel on how to land on things too. I think running across gaps and making little minor jumps like that little gap in Underhalls and the red tower run in The Chasm are great, but if they're any harder than those examples, i don't think they belong in a map for anything other than a secret area. It seems too boring to make skilled platforming like that into a mandatory section of the map where the player has to climb all the way back up to the top every time they fail. Right?
What do you guys think? More platforming or less platforming?
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agent6
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Post by agent6 on Jul 19, 2018 12:42:48 GMT -5
Honestly, I think that depends a lot on the level.
Some levels do work well with platforming sections, while others are completely and utter bullshit and use it just for the sake of adding more "difficulty" when it actually makes everything more tedious.
So, yeah, as long as it's done right I don't mind it, but I'm not really a fan of platforming anyway.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2018 12:56:17 GMT -5
cutmanmike (of The Ghoul's Forest fame) used to make a load of platforming levels using ZDoom and the built-in jump function, which were great. Put into other ZDoom levels for secrets and quicker mobility/shortcuts they're great, too, but used as I used it in Warpzone for random jumping sections in maps that otherwise didn't need them, they're not so good.
As with most features, it's more that they can be badly made or used in a way that is unintuitive or disruptive than that they're objectively good or bad.
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joe-ilya
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Post by joe-ilya on Jul 19, 2018 13:16:55 GMT -5
If it's a hard jump to make, it better be easy and clean to go back up in case of a screw up or Imma cheat.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2018 13:54:50 GMT -5
-.. -... -.-
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2018 0:42:40 GMT -5
Like many other things else in life, if it's implemented well it can be fun. Just because the game is Doom doesn't suddenly preclude the use of platforming sections.
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Post by kmxexii on Jul 20, 2018 3:15:53 GMT -5
If you want platforming to be satisfying to a broad variety of players then you are best served by limiting it to the sorts of things that you see in the IWADs, exiling it to secret sequences, or embracing it as a mechanic throughout your level or mapset so that players know up front whether or not they will hit their upper ceiling and thus do not feel cheated out of their enjoyment or their time.
NaturalTvventy has a platforming segment in NEIS's E4M0. It involves a timed lift; you trigger it to lower it to the floor and then had to make a running "jump", landing on the wafer-thin platform while it raised, and then maintain the same speed as you make another running jump to reach the other side of the gap. I think that it's a brilliant piece of sector machinery and sort of echoes the timing of the Icon of Sin fight (minus the potential projectile Hell) but I wouldn't be surprised if it was beyond the comfort level of the average Doom player. The map is actually a Doomification of one of BTSX E3's levels. From what I understand, the main drive to put it in NEIS was because the BTSX quality control team felt the same way and had Brundage engineer something more... forgiving, I suppose, and the NEIS version contains the original setup. It's not so out of place in Emil's deliberately subversive environments which use some of the most ingenious exploits I've seen in a long time.
I love seeing things like this in the Doom engine but I'm an equal opportunity player. I guess you might consider me a "masochist".
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2018 4:15:19 GMT -5
64 42 6B
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2018 7:15:06 GMT -5
Well usually the platforming parts you encounter in wads are simple stuff and they can add a nice variety to the levels. Perhaps the problem is the wacky physics of Doom. I can't recall now particularly annoying parts, except for a map in Mayhem 2017 where there's a platforming bit with tiny and slippery pillars, but otherwise (at least the mandatory parts) have stuff that at worst requires some tries, as annoying this also can be. So there are some masochist players out there who insist that platform jumping (as in running across pillars and jumping from ledge to ledge) is awesome -- the more precarious the better. Maybe I'm wrong but I'm sure that the people who say this are part of the slaughter/modern hardcore maps crowd and they talk about maps like Sunder MAP05, or the first map of toilet of the gods. Stuff that you wouldn't encounter in "normal" maps. |
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nnn✓ork
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Post by nnn✓ork on Jul 21, 2018 21:41:32 GMT -5
To me, base doom is a semi-adventure style game. Industrial Zone, Inmost Dens, and The Chasm are still gold-standard levels to me. Even the basic stuff like the Underhall's jump, the one where you hop into the brick house, it just felt so gooooood~. It's interesting to see parts of the map geometry interact with one-another like that, imo.
When I published my first pwad map, it was actually a 3D platforming maze for the Plutonia 1024 project. Though, even there I made sure to require no "advanced player tech" like strafe-running, because otherwise it wouldn't feel in line with "id software's intentional doom mechanics".
Then there's the more extreme platforming (sometimes very extreme) that requires more precise or particular movement. I kinda like this style too but I think for a different reason. Even here, I prefer it when there's a way back up after you fall. Damaging floor that stings when you fall makes sense gameplay-wise, but I rarely see the point in insta-kill one-shots, even in a challenge oriented map. Maybe there might be an argument for a "you fall, you lose" scenario if it adds tension or looks badass.
Also, to quote myself from a comment on a recent doom speedmapping session, where one mapping themes was platforming:
"...some people seem to be confusing "platforming" with "4shockblatforming". The former is a means of traversing a map with interesting layout geometry; the latter is a precise exercise of movement skills over a series of narrow pillars. It's like the difference between Iron Maiden and Death Metal music, or something i dunno."
To answer the question, "more platforming or less platforming?", my answer is "more, fuck yeah!".
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2018 21:46:34 GMT -5
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